RealGM

I have compiled a list of all frontcourts in the NBA (PF/C combo) taking into consideration the normal starting frontcourt (before injuries and the recent trades). I had spoken too early in another thread how the Raptors' starting frontcourt was the worst which, as you can see, is not true.



I was surprised by the last 2 combos. I thought Murphy and O'Neal would up there, since they are both decent rebounders, but maybe it's not working for them together at the same time or maybe it's because Murphy likes to roam the perimeter, just like Bargnani.

I also calculated the best Raptors frontcourt with Bosh:


Next, I want to come up with some sort of a formula that rolls rebounding, scoring and blocking shots into one metric to see which frontcourt is the best, but this might take a while to do.

Bosh

Does Rashard really play the 4? I thought Hedo takes on more of the big man responsibilities.

Formula for Big man effectiveness:

Oreb *2 + Dreb + Points + FTA + blocks *2 - FGA - T/O *2

What do you think SS?

Good to see that there's a strong correlation between teams like the Bobcats, Sonics, Nets and Sixers being top 10 rebounding frontcourts and team records

Clearly there's some kind of anomaly not explained by this statistic between us and our ranking brethern - Pacers, Grizzlies, Wolves, Knicks, Bucks - because we're similarly challenged yet we have a much better record.

Could the anomaly be Jamario Moon?

I'm starting to think that Bosh's rebunding numbers over the last few yearscmay have been looking good because of the players he has been playing with. It seems weird that we call him our best rebounder, but whenever Rasho, Charlie V, Humphries, and many times even Bargnani got the minutes and seemed to make some sort of effort on the boards, that Bosh was the one not producing boards. We've never really been good at boxing out. Its usually one guy getting the majority of the rebounds. Sad.

ghuytro wrote:Good to see that there's a strong correlation between teams like the Bobcats, Sonics, Nets and Sixers being top 10 rebounding frontcourts and team records

Clearly there's some kind of anomaly not explained by this statistic between us and our ranking brethern - Pacers, Grizzlies, Wolves, Knicks, Bucks - because we're similarly challenged yet we have a much better record.

Could the anomaly be Jamario Moon?

It's because you can't just look at rebounding in isolation.

We succeed despite poor rebounding numbers because we don't surrender a great deal of offensive rebounds and with the exception of about 2-3 games, our clutch rebounding has been good.

And we make up for our lack of offensive rebounding by not turning the ball over.

omeloon wrote:I'm starting to think that Bosh's rebunding numbers over the last few yearscmay have been looking good because of the players he has been playing with. It seems weird that we call him our best rebounder, but whenever Rasho, Charlie V, Humphries, and many times even Bargnani got the minutes and seemed to make some sort of effort on the boards, that Bosh was the one not producing boards. We've never really been good at boxing out. Its usually one guy getting the majority of the rebounds. Sad.

Really?

Are you joking?

Well obviously I don't think Bosh is a bad rebounder or anything, and its obvious he's much better than Bargnani. He just doesn't really seem to be the consistent rebounding monster we sometimes make him out to be.

Nice work SS.

omeloon wrote:Well obviously I don't think Bosh is a bad rebounder or anything, and its obvious he's much better than Bargnani. He just doesn't really seem to be the consistent rebounding monster we sometimes make him out to be.

He's a good rebounder pure and simple. He's no monster but he consistently gets his 9-10 rebounds per game.

I see very little correlation with those rebounding numbers and team records.


It's really all over the place.

As consistent as he is, he's still probably not as consistent as Dirk, David West, or Boozer. Bosh has still had about a dozen games where he's grabbed 5 or less boards. With as little rebounding help as we have, we sort of need him to grab more. Not slamming Bosh at all. More suggesting that we just need to get him more help. I have no complaints about Bosh's rebounding, just think its about time we got him some help. I think he's clearly not enough.

The Letter V wrote:I see very little correlation with those rebounding numbers and team records.


It's really all over the place.

What I got out of that is that rebounding numbers alone are not enough to really correlate to any reasoning for or against success.

I think the stats will fail to show the importance of rebounding in games like the wiz game in Washington, and fail to gauge the unimportance of rebounding in games like the game in Toronto the next night. I wish we as a board, got away from the stats and used the actual game screen shots which I think work much better at illustrating our points and provide a more comprehensive view. But I remember reading a stat analysis of wages of wins which said Bargs was last in the league. Well I don't believe that to be the case for a number of reasons, such as the 28 points he happened to score that night.

All in all, there's a reason why scouts get sent to watch players play, and it isn't frequent flier miles.

omeloon wrote:As consistent as he is, he's still probably not as consistent as Dirk, David West, or Boozer. Bosh has still had about a dozen games where he's grabbed 5 or less boards. With as little rebounding help as we have, we sort of need him to grab more. Not slamming Bosh at all. More suggesting that we just need to get him more help. I have no complaints about Bosh's rebounding, just think its about time we got him some help. I think he's clearly not enough.

He's a better rebounder than West and Dirk, IMO. Boozer is slightly better than bosh, though. It would be nice, if we got him some rebounding help.

SS - thanks for the stats. A quick question - How much of an impact do you think Moon has on these numbers? It seems that he steals a lot of rebounds from the our bigs - he even reaches over their backs to get them. Would we move significantly if you included SFs in the mix?

To settle this debate once and for all I suggest a rebounding war to be held during All-Star festivities. Each team sends their pair listed by OP and Derick Martin jacks shots while they battle for the boards.

The winning team gets all missed foul shot rebounds automatically given to them for the rest of the year, (no need to rebound misses).
The losing team's pair must play 5 games for their D-League associate.

Yuri Vaultin wrote:SS - thanks for the stats. A quick question - How much of an impact do you think Moon has on these numbers? It seems that he steals a lot of rebounds from the our bigs - he even reaches over their backs to get them. Would we move significantly if you included SFs in the mix?

It is possible, but Moon also grabs some tough rebounds that Bargnani and Bosh are not in position to get, so that might cancel the "stolen" rebounds out.

supersub15 wrote:I have compiled a list of all frontcourts in the NBA (PF/C combo) taking into consideration the normal starting frontcourt (before injuries and the recent trades). I had spoken too early in another thread how the Raptors' starting frontcourt was the worst which, as you can see, is not true.
[...]
I was surprised by the last 2 combos. I thought Murphy and O'Neal would up there, since they are both decent rebounders, but maybe it's not working for them together at the same time or maybe it's because Murphy likes to roam the perimeter, just like Bargnani.

The Rebound % is just based on total rebounds available vs what they pulled down right? If so, wouldn't jump shooting teams tend towards lower front-court rebounding just because of a higher frequencey of long rebounds?
This would probably tend towards our guards and SF picking up more boards than average, and so that should show in the numbers. We'd almost need a "rebounding by position" chart type thing though.
Would be more telling than just "wow we're third last in front-court rebounding" IMO.

SF's should be included.