RealGM

I think we've all known for a while that MLSE has it pretty good, but I've been trying figure out just how much revenue they take in. Anyone have numbers for this? I did a quick calculation but solid numbers would be great. For those that are interested:

Leafs average about 19450 per game, Raptors average about 19350 per game. Multiply each of these by 41 home games (not counting preseason), you get about 800000 tickets sold to each team. Raptors toicket prices plus in-game buying I would say probably averages about $100 per ticket, Leafs probably closer to $150. That's $200 million in revenue right there, not including jersey sales, sponsorships/ad sales, TV contracts, luxury tax kickbacks, etc etc etc. I would have to guess the revenue probably approaches $300-400 million range, without factoring in TFC.

Expenses are even harder to figure, but the $90 million in player salaries is probably the biggest chunk. They own the stadium so they're not paying rent, and the employees in-game don't get paid much. Add in the front office costs and maybe they're at 125 million? I dont know.

Seems to me they probably clear a couple hundred million in profit annually, but I could be way off. Anyone got any numbers or insights? I don't know why this is so intersting to me, but it is...

MLSE's books are closed, but Forbes gave it a shot:

Raptors

Leafs

Hmm....according to the forbes estimations, revenue for '07 was 262 million between the two. Seems low to me...

Fairview4Life wrote:MLSE's books are closed, but Forbes gave it a shot:

Raptors

Leafs

The Forbes site listing of the Pension Plan as the owner is ownly partially correct, they own 51 percent of MLSE.

The teams make a very good return for the money invested.

Fairview4Life wrote:MLSE's books are closed, but Forbes gave it a shot:

Raptors

Leafs

What a turnaround in 07. How did they even manage to do that?

The strength of the Canadian Dollar definitely helps to lower the expenses. I'm pretty sure they're paying contracts in US dollar. That gives them at least 10% reduction in contract salaries cost the past year.

i dunno. it's pretty low IMO.

sure it's not small change but when you look at the big picture, MLSE is a baby.

xAIRNESSx wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



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What a turnaround in 07. How did they even manage to do that?

Attendance for Raptors increased by about 1200 people per game...thats about 5 million bucks right there...plus 3 home playoff games at 20000 people at $120 per person average spend, so another 7 million or so. Thats 12 million right there.

It's low compared to yours 'cause they have the average ticket price at 54/raps and 70/leafs. That's about half your projection. Since, their number is in US, depending on when that number was calculated it could be another 10% higher or so, but if it's fairly recent it should be about the same in CDN funds.

I thought that the cheapest Leafs ticket was like 80 bucks?

satyr9 wrote:It's low compared to yours 'cause they have the average ticket price at 54/raps and 70/leafs. That's about half your projection. Since, their number is in US, depending on when that number was calculated it could be another 10% higher or so, but if it's fairly recent it should be about the same in CDN funds.

I wonder where they get their averages?

COURTSIDE - ROW A
CA $594.83 - CA $1,011.21

COURTSIDE - ROW B
CA $594.83 - CA $654.31

CORNER BALCONY
CA $19.83 - CA $644.40

COURTSIDE - ROW C
CA $475.86 - CA $525.43

SIDE PRIME
CA $218.10 - CA $242.89

SIDE
CA $136.81 - CA $188.36

BASELINE PRIME
CA $118.97 - CA $163.58

CORNER ENDZONE
CA $90.22 - CA $123.92

ENDZONE
CA $58.49 - CA $96.16

BALCONY PRIME
CA $46.59 - CA $64.44

BALCONY
CA $25.78 - CA $43.62

SPRITE ZONE
CA $12.39 - CA $12.50

Add in the luxury boxes and i dont see how the average stays down at 54 bucks. Only the upper corners and upper-upper sides come in at less than 54 bucks, pretty much everything else is more to WAY more.

The 90 million dollars spent on the players is probably 1/3rd of what they spend on marketing.

If they got their avg. ticket price number from even a year ago it might not be that off. Dollar was probably more like 80-85 a year ago, then it's more like 65 and by your numbers everything in 2nd deck is 65 and under, so that might be close to accurate (although that's not including boxes or seat licenses). My instinct is to think you're closer to being right, but (and this isn't meant to be a knock on you in any way) I'd expect Forbes to be pretty on the ball for stuff like this, so I don't know what to think of their numbers.

Do people get significant discounts for buying season tickets? Maybe Forbes has the actual ticket gross and simply divides by the number of tickets sold, 'cause I don't see how they take the listed ticket prices and the number of seats per price range and come up with their average ticket price.

Season ticket holders pay less than the face value of a ticket, I believe. That's going to impact the revenue calculation.

satyr9 wrote:If they got their avg. ticket price number from even a year ago it might not be that off. Dollar was probably more like 80-85 a year ago, then it's more like 65 and by your numbers everything in 2nd deck is 65 and under, so that might be close to accurate (although that's not including boxes or seat licenses). My instinct is to think you're closer to being right, but (and this isn't meant to be a knock on you in any way) I'd expect Forbes to be pretty on the ball for stuff like this, so I don't know what to think of their numbers.

Do people get significant discounts for buying season tickets? Maybe Forbes has the actual ticket gross and simply divides by the number of tickets sold, 'cause I don't see how they take the listed ticket prices and the number of seats per price range and come up with their average ticket price.

Season tickets do get a significant discount - at least 20%, but often more.

While MLSE is a big money maker, there are simply too many unknowns for trying to guess at the final.

-We don't know all income streams from the league, we don't know how much Raptors and Leaf TV makes/loses, we don't know what kind of interest they pay on the ACC debt, what property and income taxes they pay, what insurance premiums they pay for both personnel and the arena, security costs, travel, medical premiums and cash outlays for medical costs. There must be a hundred other things that we can only guess at.

The Leafs must make a killing. In some ways I do believe they are the Hockey version of the New York Yankees.

The salary cap has been a positive in keeping costs down...at least 20 million in salary savings...

Professional sports teams in North America rarely come with a high profit margin; there are a few exceptions (and the Leafs are one), but for many teams breaking even means a good season.

However, you have to treat sports teams more like a stock than a traditional asset; save for cheap, stupid owners, most see the goal as elevating the market price of the franchise, rather than skimming a couple million off the top each year. The OTPP has deep pockets; it can afford to lose a couple million dollars, if in doing so the franchises become more valuable over time (and the Raps have seen a dramatic increase in that regard, from what I remember).

i wonder how much the raps and leafs spend in the following areas:

-Medical Insurance - not cheap, especially with all these specialists the players sees when theyre injured.
-Travelling expenses (charters/hotels/buses)
-Food (per diem)

anybody know?