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The TJ Ford Trade Was a Wash - It's Debatable Who Won

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Post#161 » by Guy Smiley » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:54 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
In terms of pure talent, Charlie is easily in the upper-third of all NBA players. I'm not saying that he could be the second coming of Shawn Kemp, just that the guy has more


There is NO WAY CV is upper-third of all NBA players. I love CV but when half your game can't pass as average then I'm sorry but that is just wrong. I think CV is in the top half in terms of pure talent but just in terms of flipping through starting line-ups I don't know how you could justify top third.

Code: Select all

As far as earning his starting gig with the Raps, January was actually one of his worst months...he was named starter Feb. 3. Why? Largely because his competition was Pape Sow and Loren Woods. He celebrated by having a great month that had me frothing at the mouth, then coasted through most of March.


Historically rebounding was known as a hustle stat and since CV had his best rebounding month in March I would say he brought it at a reasonable level if you compare it to the rest of his rookie season. Sure his shats weren't falling but his blocks, steals, assists, and defensive rebounding were all peaks for the season.

February was a good scoring month for CV but March seemed to be the better overall month for him aside from shooting.

He hits the glass, no question about it. However, his defense isn't one iota better as far as I can tell, and if improvement has occurred, Bucks fans have certainly missed it.


It is an ugly situation in Buckland and as I have stated CV's defence is his weakness and thus will receive the most amount of hate from disgruntled fans. Yes, the same defence that keeps me from putting CV in the top third in terms of talent.

Again, Bargs' numbers are irrelevant; I didn't bring him up with any intention of discussing their relative games (my feelings about Bargs are fairly well known), rather only because of the parallels in fan reactions. The point was simply that neither player is remotely approaching expectations...Bucks fans are eager to dump Charlie in the off-season (even though many seem to doubt whether Yi will amount to much), and Raps fans are at a loss concerning Bargs.

I simply do not find the excuses made for either player to be valid; despite the talk of promises, Yi's minutes fluctuated on the basis of production, as well. Had his backup decided to take his sixth man role as a challenge, there were minutes to be had...either a starting job or a larger role off the bench. Instead, Yi flat-out outplayed him for the first two months. Same with Bargs; when he was moved to the bench it was incumbent upon him to prove that it was a mistake, and force his way into the starting lineup.

That's the only parallel that I was trying to draw...fans of both players can claim that they were slighted, but neither player stepped up and proved them right. As a result, we're left with nothing but what-ifs and dream scenarios.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think Bargnani has had more continuity and more support than CV has been given over the course of his career. Given the fairly large discrepancy between their performance I think CV has made the most of his situation and will utimately have the better career.

The fact of the matter remains CV is starting and putting up solid minutes. The team is losing but I don't hold that against CV, Bogut or even Redd because there are some glaring issues that are present. All of those guys should be held accountable but I think they are battling through legit problems that need to be rectified in order for that franchise to move forward.

Edit: Just so it is clear I'm not refruting his lack of drive and motivation but that doesn't dismiss the fact he hasn't had legit challenges.
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Post#162 » by whysoserious » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:55 pm

KG1585 wrote:
Now that Jose is Jose and Brandon Roy is Brandon Roy and Ford is suspect for several reasons, there's no way Colangelo makes that deal again. Jose and Roy in the backcourt; Charlie as a sixth man; Rasho and Bosh up front and more money to spend on additional depth would have the Raptors further ahead than they are today. I wouldn't have said that last season; and if Bargnani can get his stuff together, maybe I won't next year and the years after. But hoping for that to happen is a gamble too.


Grange seems to think that the Bucks won this deal.

Yes, Charlie scored 38. Yes, TJ was anchored to the bench in the fourth quarter. But, yes, I still make that trade. Today, tomorrow and yesterday.



On the other hand Doug Smith believes that the Raps won this deal.

This deal is only close because of TJ's injury problems, otherwise this is not even close.


Again, the only problem is people are looking at it two year's later and seeing the development of Jose. But at the time his jumpshot was poor his first season and nobody was even thinking he was a starting PG. It's easy to say now we would be better because Jose is this and that, but he wasn't at the time and we need to address a key position.

BC did that and still got a young PG with a lot of potential and some risk on his injuries. But he didn't kill the cap on him, kept the contract reasonable in terms of money and length.
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Post#163 » by distracted » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:00 pm

KG1585 wrote:
Now that Jose is Jose and Brandon Roy is Brandon Roy and Ford is suspect for several reasons, there's no way Colangelo makes that deal again. Jose and Roy in the backcourt; Charlie as a sixth man; Rasho and Bosh up front and more money to spend on additional depth would have the Raptors further ahead than they are today. I wouldn't have said that last season; and if Bargnani can get his stuff together, maybe I won't next year and the years after. But hoping for that to happen is a gamble too.


Grange seems to think that the Bucks won this deal.



Grange is saying if BC could see how players would develop over the next two years, he wouldn't do the deal. Does that mean the Bucks won though? This also has the side story that BC could go back and redo the draft, which is a completely seperate topic.

All this aside, TODAY, do you think TJ or Charlie have greater trade value. If you think TJ, the grange doesn't know what he's talking about (I think TJ). Charlie as a sixth man on this team would make the defense worse than it already is, and would probably be traded for a real SF instead of backing up Bosh and letting every SF in the league go off on us. So, even IF BC could go back and switch his first round pick for Roy, I'd still want TJ because you'd get more value for him at the SF position than Charlie!
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Post#164 » by Fairview4Life » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:07 pm

Sure it's debateable. But I'm going to stay on the side of the debate that's right, that the Raptors "won" the trade.
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Post#165 » by Vandal Savage » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:12 pm

i think bargnani sucks like the next guy, but i would still rather have him over CV.
Villanueva is not all that great, he dissappears for games, quarters. and doesnt play like a power foward

Im a Jose fan as well, but i say we won the trade, then and now
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Post#166 » by Reignman » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:21 pm

It's really a shame that the NBA doesn't allow for retroactive trading, cuz many of you would make great GM's. Hindsight is 20/20 folks.

Anyway, no matter how much I liked CV, the guy is a floater plain and simple, and for a team like ours trying to take the next step, that's the last thing you want as a team.

We won that trade plain and simple, and if it wasn't for TJ's injuries this season it would have been a complete fleecing IMO. I never followed the Bucks much when TJ was with them, but I can tell you one thing, if you don't think TJ played a major role in us getting to the playoffs last year, you are completely deluded.

Also, if you read this thread from the start it's very clear why flame wars get started re: TJ/Jose and the main culprits are easy to identify. I applaud the rest for keeping it civil.
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Post#167 » by Nolan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:25 pm

Nia wrote:1 game People, are u serious. You're comparing a Enitre Season to 1 game.... PLEASE! :roll:


exactly, lets not forget all the horride games Charlie's had this year. Charile V is a selfish shot jacker who lacks motivation.

Toronto won this trade no questions asked.
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Post#168 » by Morris_Shatford » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:08 pm

Charlie is as good or average as he wants to be,

If Charlie put up 80% of the effort he should last night even 60 games a season he would be an all star.

But he doesn't.

In terms of who has the most talent? I would lean towards Charlie, too bad he rarely shows it.

I'll take TJ thanks.
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Post#169 » by Dyabolikal » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:12 pm

Reignman wrote:It's really a shame that the NBA doesn't allow for retroactive trading, cuz many of you would make great GM's. Hindsight is 20/20 folks.


:nod:

This quote should be required reading for anyone joining this board.
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Post#170 » by booyah_child » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:30 pm

whysoserious wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Again, the only problem is people are looking at it two year's later and seeing the development of Jose. But at the time his jumpshot was poor his first season and nobody was even thinking he was a starting PG. It's easy to say now we would be better because Jose is this and that, but he wasn't at the time and we need to address a key position.

BC did that and still got a young PG with a lot of potential and some risk on his injuries. But he didn't kill the cap on him, kept the contract reasonable in terms of money and length.


I agree with you. I remember back then I was thinking that the Raps definitely needed a starting point guard. With Mike James being "Mike James, bitch", and Calderon being a rookie, the starting job needed to be filled. I don't know about everyone else, but back then I never thought Jose would turn out to be what he is today (and I was/still am a Calderon supporter).

Not to throw anymore fuel on the fire (or turn this into another TJ/Jose debate), I'm just curious, but don't you guys think that TJ's presence has helped Calderon develop as a player? Or do you guys think that Calderon would have achieved this much success with CV and CB?
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Post#171 » by ruckus » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:36 pm

Regardless of his decision making, TJ gives it 100% everytime he's out on the floor. Can you say the same for Charlie V?

Charlie's a good guy, no doubt. Very talented too. But, you have to give to get. We needed a PG and Milwaukee had one. It was a good trade then and it'd be a good trade now.

1 highly talented yet unmotivated backup/maybe starting PF with questionable D

for

1 highly talented injury-risk starting/maybe backup PG with questionable decision making

Personally, I'd go with the PG. TJ can learn good on-the-floor decision making. I don't know if Charlie can learn to bring it every night.
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Post#172 » by Cassius » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:05 pm

whysoserious wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Again, the only problem is people are looking at it two year's later and seeing the development of Jose. But at the time his jumpshot was poor his first season and nobody was even thinking he was a starting PG. It's easy to say now we would be better because Jose is this and that, but he wasn't at the time and we need to address a key position.

BC did that and still got a young PG with a lot of potential and some risk on his injuries. But he didn't kill the cap on him, kept the contract reasonable in terms of money and length.


The people who thought Jose could do a decent job as a full-time starter, myself included, assumed that we'd have at least one more non-playoff season of growth before ascending up the ranks of the NBA.

If I had known we were gunning for the third seed from the day Colangelo took his job, I wouldn't have thought Jose was up for it and I don't think many others would have, either. Remember that Jose would get badly winded last year any time he played more than 6-7 minutes straight. He wasn't ready for 35+ until this season.
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Post#173 » by Pchu » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:33 pm

In pure talent stand point, TJ has a higher ceiling, no question about it. I think TJ is more likely to make the all star team than CV.

CV to me is a combo of Lamar Odom and Drew Gooden. He has the rebounding ability of Gooden and Odom, but lack the quickness and ball handling ability of Odom. Regardless, neither Odom or Gooden ever made it to the all star team.
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Post#174 » by 6th man » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:11 pm

CV skooled AB
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Post#175 » by alivinglegend » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:11 pm

As much as I like CV, his on the ball defence is probably the worst I've ever seen. He gave up open layups again and again to Bosh, let Bargnani drive to the net and dunk it and just generally didn't switch on pick and rolls. This was also my biggest criticism of him as a Raptor and the reason why I think the TJ trade has definitely worked out in favour of the Raptors.
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Post#176 » by dagger » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:13 pm

6th man wrote:CV skooled AB


Actually, it was the other way around unless you mean shooting a few hail Mary three pointers that he won't make 19 nights out of 20.
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Post#177 » by Guy Smiley » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:19 pm

dagger wrote:
Actually, it was the other way around unless you mean shooting a few hail Mary three pointers that he won't make 19 nights out of 20.


The way things are going the line is getting very blurred. Bargnani looks flat out horrible and that most definitely includes his 3 pt shat.
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Post#178 » by dagger » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:23 pm

Guy Smiley wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



The way things are going the line is getting very blurred. Bargnani looks flat out horrible and that most definitely includes his 3 pt shat.


I was specifically referring to Charlie's unusually sucessful, nay, over his head successful, three point shooting last night. He was 7-12. Now what do you think he normally shoots from beyond the arc. For the season. Try 28%. And I can assure you that Bargnani shoots about 10 points better than that beyond the arc even in this disappointing year.
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Post#179 » by Guy Smiley » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:24 pm

dagger wrote:
No, he doesn't look flat out horrible, except in your little world of hyperbole. He is definitely playing below expectations. But I was specifically referring to Charlie's three point shooting. He was 7-12. Now what do you think he normally shoots from beyond the arc. For the season. Try 28%. And I can assure you that Bargnani shoots about 10 points better than that beyond the arc even in this disappointing year.


Okay, he is playing like a handsome woman.

Bargnani hasn't hit a 3 in the past three games and has 10 0'fers since the beginning of March.

As I said the line is getting a little blurry with his most recent stretch of poor shooting.

3 pt shooting % since March

CV .333
Bargs .303
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Post#180 » by V][/V§@Ñ!TÝ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:28 pm

dagger wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I was specifically referring to Charlie's unusually sucessful, nay, over his head successful, three point shooting last night. He was 7-12. Now what do you think he normally shoots from beyond the arc. For the season. Try 28%. And I can assure you that Bargnani shoots about 10 points better than that beyond the arc even in this disappointing year.


On this particular night, won't you at least have to say Bargs did get "schooled" by Charlie in terms of production?

in the second half, Bargs didn't even get the assignment to guard Charlie anymore.

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