Don't blame everything on Sam

[Duffman100]

Agreed, our wing players are incredibly week. But I'm starting to wonder why Kapono isn't getting open looks. Why Bargnani is the number 1 option off the bench and in blowout games. Why Graham isn't in the post 90% of the time, thats an offensive design.

[Duffman100]

imagine Gay being here as opposed to Bargs.

He'd be a spot up 3 point shooter.

[J Dilla]

I don't know. You also gotta look at the roster of this team, I admit some blame can go to Mitchell but this team lacks the experienced players. Anthony has experience, but no NBA experience. Solomon is experienced, but no NBA experience. Bargnani is Bargnani, Ukic is a rookie, Jawai is a rookie, Moon just came from the graveyard leagues, Adams came from the graveyard leagues, Jawai got drafted from god knows where. Bryan Colangelo keeps getting players from the graveyard leagues while completely ignoring the talent in the NBA who know what it takes to play in the NBA. The guy hasn't drafted someone from the NCAA for the longest time and even in the free agency period he doesn't bother to sniff the NBA free agency pool. When the guy finally decides to get a big name, its a declining one and puts all the eggs in one basket for him. I'm willing to give O Neal time, but the main reason we have no depth is because of him.

Joe Dumars has kept the same philosophy of having hard nosed players that goes with the city of Detroit mentality. Tough players, not willing to lose. He has changed many coaches, but the players play the same way.

Watching some highlights, I couldn't believe the Raptors let go of someone with Ford's skillset. This guy wouldve been a beast with O Neal creating easy buckets for him. I miss his aggressiveness on offense and attacking the hoop at will. The Raptors could really use it right now. The Raptors will miss his ability to push the ball and to create something rather than just bringing the ball up, stop at the 3 point line and dump the ball.

[EventHorizon]

I disagree, letting Sam go will have a bigger impact than getting that wing.

[J Dilla]

I disagree, letting Sam go will have a bigger impact than getting that wing.

Sure it might, but that coach will also demand some better players.

[Harry Palmer]

Sorry, just to make sure I've got this straight:

Have people in here actually made the argument that they wish JVG was our coach, because things would have been so much better for Andrea Bargnani!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!

If so...you have NO idea who JVG is, or what he demands from his players. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

If JVG had been our coach, Bargs would either have gotten waaay fewer minutes, or JVG would have quit or been fired.

[Southward1]

I also think Sam lacks confidence in his players and that lack of confidence is visible. If your headcoach has no confidence in you to do the things you need to do to be successful how do you expect the player to have confidence in himself?

I had a friend once whose father had zero confidence in him, he tried to hide him during get togethers and looked at him and treated him as if he was mentally challeneged but he wasn't. Today that old friend is homeless and a drug addict and has tried to take his own life several times. Who was to blame for my friends current state? The father who mentally abused him and hid him from the world from ages 4-10 or my friend who couldnt suck it up and be what his fathers puppet? Now lol thats a little extreme compared to playing basketball but in many ways its simular in that when you are looked at like a fool and the leaders in your life have zero confidence in you to accomplish any task you are bound to fail and lack confidence in yourself.

In the atlanta game that was evident. He would double guys down low? Why? Jo can't handle Al Horford? Horford was Jo's bitch that whole game. Bosh can't handle Josh Smith? I doubt it. His defensive plan was horrible the whole game. He should've run man to man defence and if Joe Johnson beats parker Bosh and Jo will smother him. It's what happened with Iguodala and Maggette in previous games.

[StringerBell]

How is he not a top 10 PG in this league. even by your own count he would be the 10th best. I guess its all moot when players and analyst have been calling the guy one of the best. You, however, know exactly what you are talking about.

Judging from your avartar, it MUST the coaches fault cause that man isn't to blame, right?
Sorry, just my opinion, but not in any order Billups, Iverson, Kidd, Mo Williams, Ellis when healthy, D-Will, Nash, Paul, Parker, bibby are the top 10 PG's in the league. I think calderon is right there with Rondo, Harris and Miller for spots 10-14 or whatever. Calderon is an efficient guard but he isn't a guard who can create his own shot, break his man down (without the pick and roll) and create for other players. On top of that he's a liability on defense and his inability to stay in front of his man leads to help which leads to scrambling rotations which leads to offensive boards for the other team. If JO or Bosh has to leave their man every time a perimeter player takes Kapono or Parker or Calderon off the dribble the team is going to give up 10 offensive boards most nights.

Don't get me wrong, I like Calderon as a player, but he's not a dynamic guard.

this fascination people on this board have with our sg/sf combo is disgusting. Why not start talking about what mitchell does have. Top 3 power forward in the league. Check. Former All Star Center, great defensive mind and at a times still commands a double team. Check. Pass first PG who can get the ball where it needs to be . check. 3 swingmen who will connect on their shot at 50%. Check. A 7 footer who can play at times in the post, can ring it in from downtown and spread the floor on the offensive end. check

Lets assume for the sake of argument the players are terrible on the defensive end and so Mitchell cannot do much more. Now lets go to the offensive end. Look at all the tools he has. A great coach would find a way to maximize those strenghts. We labour on the court at all times. Nothing ever comes easy. is this not on the coach to draw up plays to come up with easy shots?

You make it sound so easy. Yeah Mitchell has a few tools but the team is a relatively easy guard for defenses. With the exception of Bosh, other teams can guard them straight up. With great wing players a team can run iso's cause he has the ability to beat his man off the dribble and make the defense react, they don't need plays ran for them every time down the floor in order to score. And despite what a lot of people here want to say, they have tried running plays for Kapono and Parker. I've seen more double screens and down screens to try and free up Kapono this year than most of last year. Just don't think he's quick enough to shake free..JO like you said is a FORMER all star who's offensive game is still rusty and really doesn't command double teams....The only real weapon is the pick and roll with Bosh and Calderon, Bargs and Calderon or mayber even Oneal and Calderon....I'd just run the pick and roll to death like the Jazz did with Malone and Stockton. For whatever reason that's still a play most teams can't guard. Just look at Jose last night trying to guard Bibby of the pick and rolls they ran.

In the NBA , every team has talent. Most guards can hit 50% of the shots they take, just most players in the NBA try to play outside themselves. The good thing about this team is they don't force things for the most part and take good shots. Signs of a well coached team. The problem is the talent level when it comes to the guards isn't where it should be. There will be nights when Parker goes 7-10 and Kapono goes 8-12, but because they don't score easy points on fast breaks, ally-oops or even getting to the line, their points are harder to earn- especially against a tougher team and so inconcsistency can be expected out of those types of players.

[BlackIce]

wow...just got on my computer....damn so many people responded in such a short amount of time.

[08HEMI]

Sorry, just to make sure I've got this straight:

Have people in here actually made the argument that they wish JVG was our coach, because things would have been so much better for Andrea Bargnani!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!

If so...you have NO idea who JVG is, or what he demands from his players. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

If JVG had been our coach, Bargs would either have gotten waaay fewer minutes, or JVG would have quit or been fired.

I think people are using situations where a coach like JVG would make adjustments in a game and have a more structured offense. For example JVG would never send Alston down to help out Yao Ming in the post against a scrub leaving sharp shooters wide open on the outside and if he did he would never repeatedly do it and watch on as guys like Mike Bibby scored 19 first half points.

If people are saying what your suggesting they are saying, I don't find it anymore out of touch than you suggesting Sam is a great manager of players when the evidence clearly states otherwise as does his track record with developing players paticularly draft picks where he has not developed one single player since being a coach in Toronto.

I agree JVG is not the right coach for this team and at this point wouldn't be right for Bargnani, if he was the coach from day one with Bargnani though who know's maybe he is better today on the defensive end and in a structured offense three years in.

I find it funny you say its never the coach its always the talent but then admit things are different with each invidual coaches, as quick as you would say JVG would be worse for Bargnani then Mitchell I could say Bargnani would be better today under D'ntoni or as a #1 option on a bad team with a coach committed to his development over team success.

[BlackIce]

Sorry, just to make sure I've got this straight:

Have people in here actually made the argument that they wish JVG was our coach, because things would have been so much better for Andrea Bargnani!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!

If so...you have NO idea who JVG is, or what he demands from his players. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

If JVG had been our coach, Bargs would either have gotten waaay fewer minutes, or JVG would have quit or been fired.

I think people are using situations where a coach like JVG would make adjustments in a game and have a more structured offense. For example JVG would never send Alston down to help out Yao Ming in the post against a scrub leaving sharp shooters wide open on the outside and if he did he would never repeatedly do it and watch on as guys like Mike Bibby scored 19 first half points.

If people are saying what your suggesting they are saying, I don't find it anymore out of touch than you suggesting Sam is a great manager of players when the evidence clearly states otherwise as does his track record with developing players paticularly draft picks where he has not developed one single player since being a coach in Toronto.

I agree JVG is not the right coach for this team and at this point wouldn't be right for Bargnani, if he was the coach from day one with Bargnani though who know's maybe he is better today on the defensive end and in a structured offense three years in.

I find it funny you say its never the coach its always the talent but then admit things are different with each invidual coaches, as quick as you would say JVG would be worse for Bargnani then Mitchell I could say Bargnani would be better today under D'ntoni or as a #1 option on a bad team with a coach committed to his development over team success.

why should we pick a coach almost soley based on his effect on Bargs? Sam did a hell of a job developing Caldy didn't he? Why do u blame Bargs progress soley on Sam? Does BC bear no blame for drafting him, or do u think that if we had a different coach then Bargs would be good? Again he didn't watch bibby score 19 if he didn't double joe johnson then u would be bitching, saying how did sam just let joe johnson drop 40 on us? Sam had to pick his poison.

[Harry Palmer]

I think people are using situations where a coach like JVG would make adjustments in a game and have a more structured offense. For example JVG would never send Alston down to help out Yao Ming in the post against a scrub leaving sharp shooters wide open on the outside and if he did he would never repeatedly do it and watch on as guys like Mike Bibby scored 19 first half points.

But that's all assuming Bargs would be on the floor which, if JVG is coaching, is unlikely. JVG's demands are simple: first, rebounding and defense, particularly center-oriented defense...his system funnels the opposing scorers to the middle, where the center plays defensive quarterback/goalie.

Then, when you get past those two Un-bargnani priorities, he values efficiency and physical play. Again, Bargs is picking splinters out of his rear.

If people are saying what your suggesting they are saying, I don't find it anymore out of touch than you suggesting Sam is a great manager of players when the evidence clearly states otherwise as does his track record with developing players paticularly draft picks where he has not developed one single player since being a coach in Toronto.

Please link me to where I have said Sam is a great anything...other than maybe dresser and/or quipster...let alone 'manager of players'. I've said he's mediocre...he gives you some stuff, takes away some stuff, and in general isn't a guy who makes teams that much better or worse than they would be with any other run-of-the-mill coach.

I agree JVG is not the right coach for this team and at this point wouldn't be right for Bargnani, if he was the coach from day one with Bargnani though who know's maybe he is better today on the defensive end and in a structured offense three years in.

I suppose it's possible Bargs would have become an entirely different player than he is, and an entirely different player than he ever was before we drafted him, but I find it unlikely. He'd have certainly been a more frustrated player.

I find it funny you say its never the coach its always the talent but then admit things are different with each invidual coaches, as quick as you would say JVG would be worse for Bargnani then Mitchell

How is that inconsistent? Certain coaches emphasize things, and generally speaking, older, more experienced coaches are less willing to cater to GM demands to play their draft picks when it's not warranted by play than are younger, less secure coaches. Guys like JVG, Pop, Riley, Brown, etc...you tell them to play a guy who's costing you and doing things the opposite of how you want them done, and well...you saw what happened in NY with Zeke and Brown...they say no.

Sam has tried to play Bargs according to his play rather than his draft status at times, and he tried with Hoffa, but in both cases the GM came out in public about how their draft pick needed to play more, and in both cases Sam caved. I'm not saying I blame him, given his situation, I'm saying Pop or Larry or JVG tells the GM to shut up and let him coach, or hire someone else.

I could say Bargnani would be better today under D'ntoni or as a #1 option on a bad team with a coach committed to his development over team success.

I've addressed this complete myth elsewhere. It's false. False, false, false. It's a non-point.

[08HEMI]

A lot of what he does, you don't notice simply because he does it. You don't see teams quitting on him, you don't hear a lot about locker room troubles, you don't see guys going to the press complaining about not getting enough shots, etc.

Sam Mitchell has only had one season I can recall where there wasn't a problem in the locker room and that was the 47 win season two years ago and even then he was beginning to have problems with TJ, Jose and a couple others.

[Harry Palmer]

A lot of what he does, you don't notice simply because he does it. You don't see teams quitting on him, you don't hear a lot about locker room troubles, you don't see guys going to the press complaining about not getting enough shots, etc.

Sam Mitchell has only had one season I can recall where there wasn't a problem in the locker room and that was the 47 win season two years ago and even then he was beginning to have problems with TJ, Jose and a couple others.

Really?

What happened last year? And in his rookie season, the Carter stuff had nothing to do with Sam, and to what degree he could, he mitigated it. Alston was being an ass, and Sam's hands were tied when he tried to address it by Babs. And the team, if you will recall, was still praised for not quitting on the season in spite of it all. That's to Sam's credit, that's what he'd been pretty good at.

Same as last year...for all we could read into the TJ/Jose stuff, it never boiled over, it never became a serious issue, other than what was inherent in the situation itself. Sam again was able to keep it from becoming something that ruined the team. Not every coach would have been able to do that.

If this is you giving an example of me saying Sam is a 'great' manager of people, you're wrong. I am simply saying this is a part of coaching he is better at than other areas, and pretty good at in contrast with other coaches.

[08HEMI]

How is that inconsistent? Certain coaches emphasize things, and generally speaking, older, more experienced coaches are less willing to cater to GM demands to play their draft picks when it's not warranted by play than are younger, less secure coaches. Guys like JVG, Pop, Riley, Brown, etc...you tell them to play a guy who's costing you and doing things the opposite of how you want them done, and well...you saw what happened in NY with Zeke and Brown...they say no.

Do you have evidence to back your suggestions that BC has forced Sam to play Bargnani? If that was the case Bargnani would be a starter today and Jo would not have been traded for in my opinion.

As for coaches not tolerating things and not wanting it to cost you wins, it totally would depend on the situation of the team and how it wanted to go into the future. If your a bad team the coach is going to take a top pick and throw him to the fire and keep him in the fire and be totally commited to him, if your a good team thats already winning that coach is going to change his mind set and not be as committed to development because that development is secondary.Thats one of the reasons why you say its a myth that Bargnani would develop quicker and be a better player today on a losing team with total commitment is dead wrong. You honestly believe if Bargnani was on the Memhpis Grizzlies this year, starting and playing near 40 minutes and hoisting up 20+ shots a game he couldnt shoot 42% and do exactly what Rudy is doing in terms of scoring?

Anyways im more concerned about Mitchell in this discusion than I am about bargnani, I believe Bargnani is one of many players Sam has failed to develop correctly and one of many issues I have a problem with in regards to his coaching, management of players, in game decisions/adjustments and strategies throughout the past 4-5 years he has been here. I see a pattern of the same mistakes no matter which team is put on the court and I see a pattern of failure to develop draft picks ever since he has been here and that says to me its not just a talent issue.

[Harry Palmer]

How is that inconsistent? Certain coaches emphasize things, and generally speaking, older, more experienced coaches are less willing to cater to GM demands to play their draft picks when it's not warranted by play than are younger, less secure coaches. Guys like JVG, Pop, Riley, Brown, etc...you tell them to play a guy who's costing you and doing things the opposite of how you want them done, and well...you saw what happened in NY with Zeke and Brown...they say no.

Do you have evidence to back your suggestions that BC has forced Sam to play Bargnani?

Are you kidding? In 2 straight years, BC went on the air to talk about how we had to get Bargs more minutes because of how much we had invested in him, and in both cases that was immediately followed by Bargs getting more minutes/moved into the starting lineup.

If that was the case Bargnani would be a starter today and Jo would not have been traded for in my opinion.

No, that's a matter of degree, not a matter of fact. BC can and has pushed Sam into playing Bargs more than Sam felt his play had deserved...that doesn't mean BC had decided that bargs' playing time was the only issue he was concerned with, or that his opinion was immutable over time.

As for coaches not tolerating things and not wanting it to cost you wins, it totally would depend on the situation of the team and how it wanted to go into the future. If your a bad team the coach is going to take a top pick and throw him to the fire and keep him in the fire and be totally commited to him, if your a good team thats already winning that coach is going to change his mind set and not be as committed to development because that development is secondary.

That's simply not true. See Zeke vs. Malone, as just one of all kinds of examples. Generally speaking, GM's push for player development, coaches push for vets because each relies on that factor to secure their position.

Thats one of the reasons why you say its a myth that Bargnani would develop quicker and be a better player today on a losing team with total commitment is dead wrong. You honestly believe if Bargnani was on the Memhpis Grizzlies this year, starting and playing near 40 minutes and hoisting up 20+ shots a game he couldnt shoot 42% and do exactly what Rudy is doing in terms of scoring?

For the kazliionth time: How does a player become more efficient by virtue of greater defensive attention and lesser teammates!?!?!?! More volume, yes, but how on earth does he become more efficient. It's a false, false, false, false point.

Anyways im more concerned about Mitchell in this discusion than I am about bargnani, I believe Bargnani is one of many players Sam has failed to develop correctly and one of many issues I have a problem with in regards to his coaching, management of players, in game decisions/adjustments and strategies throughout the past 4-5 years he has been here.

Examples other than Bargnani?

I see a pattern of the same mistakes no matter which team is put on the court and I see a pattern of failure to develop draft picks ever since he has been here and that says to me its not just a talent issue.

The young players he has been given to develop have been (of any note):

Bosh, Hoffa, Graham, Jose, Ford, and Charlie. And Bargs.

Bosh, Jose, Charlie and Ford all improved under his direction.

Graham, Hoffa and Bargs did not.

Make your argument, please.

Edit: someone gonna freak that I didn't include Hump. You know who you are, someone.

[the_real_deception]

A lot of what he does, you don't notice simply because he does it. You don't see teams quitting on him, you don't hear a lot about locker room troubles, you don't see guys going to the press complaining about not getting enough shots, etc.

Sam Mitchell has only had one season I can recall where there wasn't a problem in the locker room and that was the 47 win season two years ago and even then he was beginning to have problems with TJ, Jose and a couple others.

u must be colangelo's wife? sure blame everything on smitch cause we have the greatest players ever assembled. lets go through our roster

Caledron (great offensive player but an atrocious defender)
Roko (kid has potential from what i see but has no shot. serioulsy i think chris dudley has a better jumper than roko)
Will Solomon (not a significant body of work but he's a fringe backup at best)
AP (love the guy on some nights but on the rest of nights like yesterday, he just takes up space. this could be attributed to age)
Graham (Good Joey= 4 nights a year; BAD Joey= 78 nights a year)
Adams (developmental league all star)
Moon (does a lot of little things good like play excellent help defense. probably best move in the colangelo era, considering we're paying him the min.)
Kapono (overpaid specialist, nuff said)
Bosh (star, not yet a superstar)
JO (he's making approx a third of our team payroll, i doubt his great defensive presence is worth all that)
Bargnani (i will refer u to the career's of aldridge, brandon roy and rudy gay)
Hump (cant hate on him because he replaced hoffa)
Jawai ( i guess colangelo doesnt believe in medical screening of his draftees)

[08HEMI]

A lot of what he does, you don't notice simply because he does it. You don't see teams quitting on him, you don't hear a lot about locker room troubles, you don't see guys going to the press complaining about not getting enough shots, etc.

Sam Mitchell has only had one season I can recall where there wasn't a problem in the locker room and that was the 47 win season two years ago and even then he was beginning to have problems with TJ, Jose and a couple others.

Really?

What happened last year? And in his rookie season, the Carter stuff had nothing to do with Sam, and to what degree he could, he mitigated it. Alston was being an ass, and Sam's hands were tied when he tried to address it by Babs. And the team, if you will recall, was still praised for not quitting on the season in spite of it all. That's to Sam's credit, that's what he'd been pretty good at.

Same as last year...for all we could read into the TJ/Jose stuff, it never boiled over, it never became a serious issue, other than what was inherent in the situation itself. Sam again was able to keep it from becoming something that ruined the team. Not every coach would have been able to do that.

If this is you giving an example of me saying Sam is a 'great' manager of people, you're wrong. I am simply saying this is a part of coaching he is better at than other areas, and pretty good at in contrast with other coaches.

Last year it was his handling of the ford issue and it was clearly a huge issue that affected the team and did boil over. TJ Ford was our starting pg he got injured, he lost his starting spot due to injury and that is when it all went wrong. If TJ Ford returned from injury and was given his starting spot back like he should of based on his past performance with him as the starter and jose as the backup with no problems in the lockeroom then it wouldn't have boiled over and it wouldn't have been such a dominant discussion on and off the court. Sam Mitchell said himself after the season looking back he should of made TJ the starter when he returned, to late Sam as always.

With Carter they clearly had issues together, at one point it was said Mitchell tried to start something with Carter in the dressing room and Carter slammed him on the massage table. During games where Carter struggled Mitchell would even yank him and openly talk about him with the media, to say there relationship was anything other than a bad one would be a lie.

Rafer Alston a guy JVG never had problems with a guy Riley never had problems with, Sam mitchell nearly fought him on national tv and reportedly had to be speerated in the dressing room several times while he was here.

Eric Williams, Jalen Rose, word was Jim Todd even had enough and thats why he didnt resign with us even though he was offered a contract to remain with the club. His relationship with guys like Joey Graham and Bargnani last year and beyond was hardly a walk in the park between loving coach and loving player and he was once voted worst coach by NBA players which speaks volumes coming from guys who actually play.

Aside from our 47 win season its been a circus on and off the court with Sam Mitchell for the most part.

[BlackIce]

i feel bad for parker he has to always guard the other teams best wing player and he is exhausted on the other end. Put him beside GCrash or even someone like outlaw and parker becomes much more effective, right now he is being asked to do a lot.

[08HEMI]

Examples other than Bargnani?

read entire thread, no point in repeating my thoughts

The young players he has been given to develop have been (of any note):

Bosh, Hoffa, Graham, Jose, Ford, and Charlie. And Bargs.

Bosh, Jose, Charlie and Ford all improved under his direction.

Graham, Hoffa and Bargs did not.

Make your argument, please.

Edit: someone gonna freak that I didn't include Hump. You know who you are, someone.

- Bosh was well on his way already, his character and work ethic and his special talents would of been relized with me coaching him, he is just that good

- Jose I will give him credit for

- Ford was no different here than he was with the Bucks

- Charlie? Ya man look what he did for Charlie's career, i'll be voting for him in this years all star game.

- Hump? Stats changed because he played here, I still see the same Hump I seen on day one which is guy who refuses to accept his role and is a black hole.

- All our draft picks to date with Sam guiding them and teaching them, only Bargnani is still functionable and he is fragile as well.

So in reality, its Jose Calderon the lone man who I would truly give Sam Mitchell full credit for