Is Bargnani better than his stats indicate?

[Assassin_1]

So far he's at 8 pts / 4 rebounds / 1.6 blks and has a shooting % of 54% and 56% from three. I think he is better than that particarly because Sam doesn't run many plays for him. I would give the ball to AB as many times as I can because he converts on his shots most of the time and he takes high percentage shots.

[5DOM]

i want him to get more touches, because with Bosh on the bench, he's still our best creator (sadly).

[Derekman]

Bargs>O'neil

[08HEMI]

He needs to be the #1 option off the bench with atleast 10 shots a game, wether he faisl or not this is what he needs and I believe based on what ive seen so far there would be more positive than negative if we made sure he got a little bigger piece of the pie.

Im also thinking maybe its time we play four bigs with AB at center and Humphries at the four while JO and Bosh rest, that would allow Bargnani to get a little more touches and not continuously be feeding one of Bosh and JO all game. They are tiring out during games and a player being tired has less chance of being 100% focused 100% of the time and scoring the ball, plus Bargnani has just been showing he can score so why not?

[Hank_Scorpio]

I voted "no" because his stats are pretty good IMHO.

I'm not so concerned with how many points he's scoring - but the fact that both his shooting percentages are over 50% says a lot to me. And the 1.6 blocks are gravy - though I hope we get more servings of it. His shot looks 100% better and his defense has been consistently good with spots of greatness.

But the fact is that right now, he is still a work in progress. With a little more seasoning, he should be pulling down at least 6 boards a game, so he's not there yet. And he's still being very conservative on offense. Don't get me wrong, I like that he's picking his spots at the moment. That's how you get your confidence back. But at some point, if you want to take the next step, you have to get aggressive and take more shots. The elite players in the league can't take nights off. If their shot isn't falling, they have to find other ways to score. Right now, Bargnani isn't anywhere near that point.

IMHO the barrier is that he still has to gain confidence that he's not going to suffer the ill effects of his past breathing issues. I'm seeing my 19 month old recover from a broken leg and its taken her almost a week and a half to take her first step - and she was practically running before she broke it. For Andrea, he has to regain the faith that his legs aren't going to go out because they aren't getting oxygen, resulting in flat shots and weak defense. And that takes time.

Right now Bargnani is where his stats indicate he is. Its clear that he's taken a huge leap forward since last year. Now he has to show that he can not only sustain it, but take the next leap and have the confidence to be a major scoring threat.

[Dam]

1 options??????? LOL!!!

before bargs..for mitchell, in the offensive plane..

bosh
jo
calderon
kapono
parker
moon









bargs...lol

the best solution, for bargs and toronto, is a trade.

[I_Like_Dirt]

No. He's been better defensively this season, though he still has a lot of issues with team defense. His shot selection has been much better and his percentages have gone up accordingly - they'll stay up if he keeps it up but not at his ridiculous current levels after 5 games - but he will never be a scoring star unless he can maintain solid percentages while upping his usage rate from 16 (it was ~23 in his first two seasons). Personally, I think his numbers roughly reflect how he's played this season, which is a step in the right direction from his first two seasons where he was worse than even his average-at-best numbers indicated.

[08HEMI]

I voted "no" because his stats are pretty good IMHO.

Depends what stats he is talking about I guess. If he is talking about scoring and rebounding I would say yes he is better than 8 and 4 if given the shots and the time on the court.

[Hank_Scorpio]

I voted "no" because his stats are pretty good IMHO.

Depends what stats he is talking about I guess. If he is talking about scoring and rebounding I would say yes he is better than 8 and 4 if given the shots and the time on the court.

But I think the 8 and 4 reflect exactly where he is.

He isn't taking a lot of shots and while he's improved on the boards, he has a long way to go.

The shooting percentages though, are fantastic.

[Dam]

Andrea Bargnani Getting Bill Cartwright Treatment In Toronto
by robert seagal

There are basically two types of players for Sam Mitchell. There are players he relates to, and players he doesn't relate to.

For the latter, he makes little effort to put them in a situation to succeed, completely disregarding what they can do in favor of what he'd like them to do to help out the players he does like. This isn't the soundest coaching philosophy.

When Andrea Bargnani broke into the league, his play dramatically improved when Jorge Garbajosa started playing more minutes. They had some chemistry on the court due to a friendship off the court. Watch Bargnani now.

Yesterday, at one point, you saw Bargnani on offense thirteen straight times, and not once did he touch the ball. Thirteen times. He then got the ball and hoisted up a three, which ended up being flat. Two seconds later, he was on the bench.

How can you ask a big man to run the court, block shots, and rebound when you don't even let him touch the ball? You will notice that Will Solomon and Roko Ukic actually make an effort to pass Bargnani the ball once every other time down the court. With Jose Calderon, this is simply one of five of these freeze-outs I've witnessed this season.

If players like Chris Bosh and Calderon are making such an obvious effort to freeze Bargnani out, shouldn't a coach intervene?

No. Instead of coaching last night, every time the camera focused on Mitchell, he was trashing the play of player x, player y, and player z. He seems better suited as a commentator.

This club must make a decision now. After the talent and hustle upgrade, Bargnani's expecting to see the ball on offense, and if you've got Bosh and Calderon pulling a Jordan, freezing Andrea out, moving the ball to the side of the floor he's not while making it so embarrassingly obvious, you might have a problem on your hands.

It is a coach's job to draw up plays for their talented offensive players. In three years, Bargnani has never had a play drawn for him. Three seasons, and every point he's scored as a Raptor has been on an isolation, a post up, a spontaneous pick-and-roll, or a kick-out jump shot.

Has anyone ever set a screen to get him open, considering at the time he was drafted there were executives calling him the best shooting big man in the league already?

The situation mirrors the one in Detroit with Darko Milicic, where a coach doesn't get the player he wants, and then blames the general manager when he makes sure the player drafted struggles.

Sure, in hindsight, maybe Sam Mitchell probably feels bitter having to play Joey Graham, while Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay have turned into borderline all-stars. That doesn't give him the right to essentially throw Andrea's career down the tube.

Like with Milicic, Bargnani has been the target of criticism due to the players picked after him. Like with Milicic, Bargnani has gotten hate with the label of tough love from his coaching staff.

Unlike Milicic however, Bargnani has kept working. He didn't just give up and sulk like Milicic, but he kept on trying to improve.

How much longer can he keep trying when no matter what he does, his two best players and his coach seem hell-bent on making sure he doesn't touch the ball. Consider the value of Bargnani, and the offensive talent he possesses in comparison to Jason Kapono and Jermaine O'Neal. Look at this.

Over 5 games, this is the minutes per shot break down. Consider please that Bargnani is shooting 55 percent from the field, and this is up from 35 percent last season.

Bargnani: 3.7 minutes per shot.

Chris Bosh: 2.3minutes per shot.

Jason Kapono: 3.2 minutes per shot.

Jose Calderon 3.3 minutes per shot.

Jermaine O'Neal: 2.8 minutes per shot.

Anthony Parker: 3.6 minutes per shot (consider he's shooting below 40%).

There you have it. Your gimpy center who can't buy a shot, your pass first point guard, your superstar, your one-dimensional jump-shooter, and your veteran shooting guard shooting 19-49 are all getting more shots per minute than Bargnani.

The funny part is, Bargnani's getting a lot of his shots when he's the first option on the floor with the second unit, so exactly how often is he shooting when he's on the court with some starters? Once per six minutes? Seven minutes? Fourteen possessions?

He's almost on par with Josh Smith in terms of blocks per minute, and he's outrebounding O'Neal per minute as well. Furthermore, He's shooting a better percentage from the field than player of the week Bosh.

When you consider that his best and most consistent trait has been an improved defensive awareness, how much more can a guy do to get some respect?

[Hank_Scorpio]

I don't buy it.

I'm not saying that perhaps this isn't happening - but rather that I think its just a natural part of the evolution. As his teammates get more confidence in Bargnani, he will see the ball more. As he gains confidence, he will put himself in more positions to be able to do something with the ball.


Its just so easy to try and look for hidden agendas or to blame the coaching staff - but in this case, it really seems to just have everything to do with the player himself.

[gcsw]

It is a coach's job to draw up plays for their talented offensive players. In three years, Bargnani has never had a play drawn for him. Three seasons, and every point he's scored as a Raptor has been on an isolation, a post up, a spontaneous pick-and-roll, or a kick-out jump shot.

Has anyone ever set a screen to get him open, considering at the time he was drafted there were executives calling him the best shooting big man in the league already?

It's obvious this author has not been watching Raptor games for the last few seasons. If he watched more than 1 game, he would notice that Sam does not really run any plays for anyone. All the points that Bosh scores, is on isolation, post up, pick and roll, kick out jump shot. That's the way that every other Raptors score their points. So, I don't know why Bargs will get special treatment. Sam is an idiot when it comes to running plays and X and Os. The author is clearly clueless.

[dagger]

I've been an advocate of giving him a few designed plays, especially mid-range looks, but it's not just Bargnani's usage that bothers me but our over-reliance on the pick and roll and now posting up JO. An offence has to have a bit more imagination because some teams can defend the pick and roll better than others, and JO has been slow coming around offensively. There will be nights when he gets in early foul trouble, and other nights when he or Bosh will be injured.

It's just not smart to have so little variety in your offence. Where are the new wrinkles Sam was saving during the pre-season?

Whether you like Bargnani for the long term or look at him as a trade asset, you want to see some evolution.

He's improved every aspect of his game over last year. In some areas the improvement is significant, in others slight. But everything seems to be going in the right direction. Even from a trade value standpoint, you'd like to let him push his limits a bit. I'm sure GMs have seen the post moves and the higher percentages, and if he could keep it up with a few more plays run for him, it would certainly boost his value because he's still a 23 year old seven footer with good offensive skills and speed for his size.

I suspect his usage rate will go up, but if it doesn't and the team is floundering, I suspect that we'll get to the point where Sam is fired and BC will decide to see how Bargnani does with another coach. For those who want a trade, it would actually be better if Sam did a little more to build up his value. If he can give us 12 and 6 coming off the bench, with good percentages, that would become very tantalizing for some good rival GMs.

[08HEMI]

I don't buy it.

I'm not saying that perhaps this isn't happening - but rather that I think its just a natural part of the evolution. As his teammates get more confidence in Bargnani, he will see the ball more. As he gains confidence, he will put himself in more positions to be able to do something with the ball.


Its just so easy to try and look for hidden agendas or to blame the coaching staff - but in this case, it really seems to just have everything to do with the player himself.

I buy alot of what was said there, not the coach vs BC thing but everything else is pretty accurate. I also think his teammates lacking confidence in him is a reason why he loses confidence in himself so im not a advocator of showing no confidence in someone until they prove they deserve it. Because A. You can't prove it if I don't allow you the chance and B. When your friends and family or in this case teammates lack confidence in you it tends to make you lose confidence in yourself and in some cases just give up. In my mind Bargnani has earned the the right to get he ball by the work he has put in and the progrsss he has shown when given the ball, the confidence and respect should be there already.

[Bryans_Collar]

This is getting lol.

Never thought I'd see the day where Jose was being criticized for not getting someone involved in the offense.

With TJ? Oh of course I'd expect those criticisms. Regardless of whether they were justified.

But now we're firing a shot across the bow at the most pass heavy, low usage PG in the game. We're running out of people to blame.

And now we're going to fire the coach for not getting enough out of a bench player? I'm all for firing Sam (for other reasons) but this has to be a jopke.

Also lol @ sample size. Suddenly Bargnani is on par with Josh Smith at blocking. Suddenly it's assumed he'll keep his 13% reb rate up for 82 games. Suddenly it's assumed he'll keep shooting over 50% from 3pt range.

Lets revisit this after 20 games.

He's playing better in some ways - much more court aware, rebounding is slightly up, etc.

But in others he's still terrible - 2 free throws on 31 field goal attempts WTF !

[Black Milk]

i want him to get more touches, because with Bosh on the bench, he's still our best creator (sadly).

So true and yet so horribly depressing

[EventHorizon]

Totally agree with the article, Bargnani is playing well but Jose seems to be allergic to him and Jason Kapono.

Maybe it's Smitch's system, who was the coach fired from Detroit? Murray?

[Harry Palmer]

Is Bargnani better than what his stats indicate?

When would the popular answer to that question have ever been anything but yes around here? Even when he has been as one-dimensional a scorer as you can get, the popular belief has been that he is somehow let down by the objective data. As a rookie, his mediocre numbers didn't accurately represent that *magic* that he brought to the table. As a soph, he was the victim of bad coaching, health, role definition, teammates, etc. and his numbers paid the price.

Etc.

So the answer will almost certainly be yes to this question.

[mand_187]

I think he's marginally better than his stats are showing right now. His defense has been a major improvement and his stats don't justify his performance. On offense he has been inconsistent for one reason, some nights he just won't shoot the ball. He has also been consistently turning the ball over on those very same nights. Sam Mitchell doesn't have plays for anyone except for Chris and that's because he is the easiest option to make plays for, the man is a clown. Overall, it is obvious that we should be making plays for 2 guys off our bench, Bargnani and Kapono. Both can shoot perimeter shots and Bargnani has shown some inside game. Kapono showed us flashes of his slashing (with his floaters) but I would rather have the guy shooting from outside. I just don't see Mitchell offering much of anything for anyone on this team other than Chris Bosh.

[Paperclip]

I say no.
Although his stats may say he shoots high % yadda yadda, you have to look at the shots he is getting. Open looks and mismatches. If you run him more plays those % definately wont be the same. I think the stats are what they are. Maybe there is a reason why he doesnt get that many plays run to him that people want.