Raptors drafting under BC: Bad luck or poor drafting?

[Gold Chain]

I am extremely happy MLSE went out and got Colangelo.

I think many people forget what the Raptors were before he came.

Btw.....the reason he came is because this was a great situations with lots of room to grow. I am happy with his cap management for 2010 and he brings a sense of legitamacy to the franchise.

I cannot believe any would actually say they wish Babcock was here. Wow.

[08HEMI]

I read somewhere the Jerry forced BC to pick Amare as BC wasn't really interested in Amare all that much. So that leaves Marion, Nash and Finley as BC's bright spots

I read some where that you will do and say anything to make sure your comments of the past hold some truth.

Let me ask you this, who was to blame for the Hoffa pick?

[Eating a Book]

And again, that hasn't been reported anywhere. It was only something that posters on the Suns board brought up after BC signed with the Raps.

Really?

I need to organize my memory banks or something. It's just all jumbled into categories like "stuff I've read", "movies I've seen", "Garfield comic strips", etc.

[j3yuen]

guys relax...
sure BC picked bargs
but you have to relax on jawai..
he was a freaking 2nd rounder, half those guys don't even stay in the NBA. none of them have guaranteed contracts. he just took a very safe gamble. best case scenario jawai becomes a beast, worst case we waste a 2nd rounder.. who cares..

[Raptors90102]

I read somewhere the Jerry forced BC to pick Amare as BC wasn't really interested in Amare all that much. So that leaves Marion, Nash and Finley as BC's bright spots

I read some where that you will do and say anything to make sure your comments of the past hold some truth.

Let me ask you this, who was to blame for the Hoffa pick?

When did I support Babcock? I understand that you're possessive abt the 7 foot inconsistent stiff we have on our roster, but what does Babcock have anything to do with this conversation?

And if you don't believe the BC against Amare story, just go ask Suns fans.. I just pointed out what I heard.. whats your problem anyway? Do you feel that its your birth right to derail every thread by making nonsense posts or do you just want to shove your biased agenda down our throats? This thread is not about criticizing BC, its about assessing his draft performance so far for the raptors..

[08HEMI]

I read somewhere the Jerry forced BC to pick Amare as BC wasn't really interested in Amare all that much. So that leaves Marion, Nash and Finley as BC's bright spots

I read some where that you will do and say anything to make sure your comments of the past hold some truth.

Let me ask you this, who was to blame for the Hoffa pick?

When did I support Babcock? I understand that you're possessive abt the 7 foot inconsistent stiff we have on our roster, but what does Babcock have anything to do with this conversation?

And if you don't believe the BC against Amare story, just go ask Suns fans.. I just pointed out what I heard.. whats your problem anyway? Do you feel that its your birth right to derail every thread by making nonsense posts or do you just want to shove your biased agenda down our throats? This thread is not about criticizing BC, its about assessing his draft performance so far for the raptors..

You a very angry guy my friend and perhaps its time you seek some counselling. The GM is the GM he is the guy that makes the final call on draft night, all GM's get advise from many levels but when that GM makes the call on draft night wether its a good pick or a bad pick its on him. Disregarding a pick he made bceause someone advised him to pick a specific player is flat our (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

How you figure I derail threads when all you ever do in every discussion is try to pass along your sorry little message of Bargnani is a stiff and BC isn't very good is beyond me. You are right this is about BC's draft history so why are you now bringing your usual Bargnani cheap shots into the discussion and doing what you say I do, derailing the thread?

Since your temper got the best of you and you decided to ramble on about nothing important I will answer the question for you. Rob Babcock is to blame the Hoffa selection even though it was rumored that Jim Kelly and Jack McCloskey were the ones who wanted him and so called "forced" Babcock to take him. To me it doesn't matter who told him what, Rob Babcock is his own man and held the title of GM, it was his pick and his pick alone just as Amare was BC's.

Now I ask you again who was to blame for that Hoffa pick?

I await your foaming at the mouth response

[bane_dd]

How can anyone judge BC based on a couple of draft picks that he has made here in Toronto? This is the same guy that drafted Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire.

Sure, he drafted Bargnani, but that was done in a weak draft with no consensus #1 pick. At age 23, the book is certainly not closed on Bargnani. He has definitely shown promise of being a good player and most of all, he has shown a willingness to work and get better.

He drafted Nathan Jawai and there is a lot of speculation regarding his condition. Jawai has not even played one minute in the NBA and people are already proclaiming his career over. Let's wait and see what happens with Jawai before we accuse BC of wasting that pick.

As far as his #17 first round pick this year that he along with Ford and Rasho (and Baston, of course) parlayed into "one leg" Jermaine O'Neil, that move will clear $20+ million in our salary cap after next season. Whatever JO gives the Raptors this season and next is pure bonus; the objective in getting him was to clear room under the cap for the summer of LeBron. And unlike a bunch of teams that offloaded talent in order to get under the cap (think NJ), BC actually UPGRADED the talent while still positioning the Raptors to be major players in the trade/free agency market.

It takes time and a bit of luck to collect the pieces necessary to build a contender. I like the job BC has done in moving the team in that direction so far. As for his draft record, over the years his record speaks for itself.

[Raptors90102]

I read some where that you will do and say anything to make sure your comments of the past hold some truth.

Let me ask you this, who was to blame for the Hoffa pick?

When did I support Babcock? I understand that you're possessive abt the 7 foot inconsistent stiff we have on our roster, but what does Babcock have anything to do with this conversation?

And if you don't believe the BC against Amare story, just go ask Suns fans.. I just pointed out what I heard.. whats your problem anyway? Do you feel that its your birth right to derail every thread by making nonsense posts or do you just want to shove your biased agenda down our throats? This thread is not about criticizing BC, its about assessing his draft performance so far for the raptors..

You a very angry guy my friend and perhaps its time you seek some counselling. The GM is the GM he is the guy that makes the final call on draft night, all GM's get advise from many levels but when that GM makes the call on draft night wether its a good pick or a bad pick its on him. Disregarding a pick he made bceause someone advised him to pick a specific player is flat our (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

How you figure I derail threads when all you ever do in every discussion is try to pass along your sorry little message of Bargnani is a stiff and BC isn't very good is beyond me. You are right this is about BC's draft history so why are you now bringing your usual Bargnani cheap shots into the discussion and doing what you say I do, derailing the thread?

Since your temper got the best of you and you decided to ramble on about nothing important I will answer the question for you. Rob Babcock is to blame the Hoffa selection even though it was rumored that Jim Kelly and Jack McCloskey were the ones who wanted him and so called "forced" Babcock to take him. To me it doesn't matter who told him what, Rob Babcock is his own man and held the title of GM, it was his pick and his pick alone just as Amare was BC's.

Now I ask you again who was to blame for that Hoffa pick?

I await your foaming at the mouth response

counselling and me? Ask half of the posters on this board and you'll soon find out that if anyone needs counselling here, its you. You're fascination with anything Andrea Bargnani is borderline obsessive. But thats OK, you have the right to support him and there's nothing wrong with it. What annoys me is your tendancy to discredit everybody else's opinion who even dares to question the Bargnani pick or Bargnani, the player, himself.

Babcock, deservedly, gets al the flak for the Hoffa pick, just like he should. At the same time, Hoffa himself was criticized for sucking so much. Similarly, if Bargnani hasn't turned out the player we all envisioned him to, the fault lies with primarily with Brian and Bargnani should get his fair share of flak as well.

Just cuz BC has turned us into a playoff team doesn't mean that he is beyond criticism. If he messes up (which has so far on a few occassions), he will get the flak. And BC's past history as to what he did with the suns is irrelevant. His suns legacy is not going to make us a contender, its what he does with the raptors that matters to me. I don't care if he drafted a superstar every year with the suns, cuz the Suns' superstars are not going to benefit the raptors.

As for the Amare pick, there's a difference between Jim Kelly and Jerry Colengelo. Jerry was the owner of the Suns at that time and BC's father as well. Jerry had run th suns for many years, so his advise must have had a far greater impact on BC as compared to that of a Jim Kelly or MG. Ultimately it was BC's decision, but you cannot deny that his decision was influenced by his father (the owner), otherwise he would have gone ahead and picked the player he wanted to pick instead of Amare.

[STEELE_34]

Colongelo drafted bargnani with his heart and not his brain.


hence the result we have,regarding jawai i would of assumed an overall medical chekup would of detected any problems he might of had.
at the same time i havent seen him play so i cant speak on his game.

[LLJ]

As far as his #17 first round pick this year that he along with Ford and Rasho (and Baston, of course) parlayed into "one leg" Jermaine O'Neil, that move will clear $20+ million in our salary cap after next season. Whatever JO gives the Raptors this season and next is pure bonus; the objective in getting him was to clear room under the cap for the summer of LeBron. And unlike a bunch of teams that offloaded talent in order to get under the cap (think NJ), BC actually UPGRADED the talent while still positioning the Raptors to be major players in the trade/free agency market.

It takes time and a bit of luck to collect the pieces necessary to build a contender. I like the job BC has done in moving the team in that direction so far. As for his draft record, over the years his record speaks for itself.

I am satisfied with BC despite his whiffs, but his inability to make a move off the 41-45 win treadmill is troubling. He's had some successes and some failures. I liked AP, the Charlie trade, and the move for Rasho. The Garbo signing would've been OK if he hadn't gotten injured--not sure if the buyout was a total good idea though--at least the quickness in which he did it.

I mean, maybe this is just years of frustration penting up in me, but how long do we have to wait to get our first 50 win team? I understand that building a TITLE contender is difficult, but we haven't even built a team like last year's Orlando (which won 50). Even Knick fans can remember back to the late 90s when they had a 50 win team. I mean, we're well past a decade of existence (year 15 is right around the corner, even) and the only thing we have to show for it is 47 wins. So you'll forgive me for starting to lose patience. What are we, tied with the Clippers and Golden State as the team with the longest 50-win team drought? Aren't we due? I know, I know, at least we got a second round appearance on our resume with that 47 win season in 2001. Woo hoo. *Slow Clap*

[cheapfoul]

Threads like this are what keeps me coming back to this forum. Just some random thoughts in response:

- There's three guys that are performing head and shoulders above Bargnani who were drafted in the first round of that EXTREMELY WEAK draft and had a shot at being taken in the top 5. Those guys are Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy and Lamarcus Aldridge. That's it. No you can't say Ronnie Brewer or anyone else because nobody was even considering taking someone like that with the no. 1 pick. We were also never going to take Roy so ya, Aldridge or Gay.

- hindsight is 20/20

- Bargani is in YEAR 3 of his career. Year 3 folks. And you're annointing him a bust?

- Poor evaluator of talent that hasn't made any good pick ups? Anthony Parker? Jason Kapono (it's not his fault Sam Mitchell can't figure out how to use a guy that hit's >50% from the 3 point line), turning Ford into O'neal?

- Nathan Jawai was picked with the 41st pick overall. Ya...he deserves criticism for that alright particularly when we haven't seen the kid actually play yet.

Basically, this thread is a thinly veiled attempt to once again criticize the Bargnani pick. I can't seriously think that anyone in their right mind would actually think that this franchise isn't FAR FAR FAR better off with Colangelo running it than it was at any time in the past. The respect factor alone is enough let alone the obvious improvements he's made to a club that had not made the playoffs in 5 years before he arrived and has not missed the playoffs since.

Edit - the other thing that I find amusing is that in the threads open discussing trades for a bona fide stud wing player like Gerald Wallace or for Al Harrington, all I read is "I don't wanna trade Bargnani". Which is it? So apparently, he's a bust but we think enough of him to not want to trade him for a lock down perimeter defender who is an amazing rebounder and gets to the rim with abandon.

[Shaazzam]

Stop attacking posters Hemi and 90102.

[Fairview4Life]

Threads like this are what keeps me coming back to this forum. Just some random thoughts in response:

- There's three guys that are performing head and shoulders above Bargnani who were drafted in the first round of that EXTREMELY WEAK draft and had a shot at being taken in the top 5. Those guys are Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy and Lamarcus Aldridge. That's it. No you can't say Ronnie Brewer or anyone else because nobody was even considering taking someone like that with the no. 1 pick. We were also never going to take Roy so ya, Aldridge or Gay.

Not so far this season. Bargs has been significantly more efficient offensively, better on the glass, and much better defensively than Aldridge so far.

[Raptors90102]

Stop attacking posters Hemi and 90102.

I didn't attack any poster Shaz. HEMI pointed fingers at me for no apparent reason. I didn't make any personal comment until he chose to target me.

[cheapfoul]

Threads like this are what keeps me coming back to this forum. Just some random thoughts in response:

- There's three guys that are performing head and shoulders above Bargnani who were drafted in the first round of that EXTREMELY WEAK draft and had a shot at being taken in the top 5. Those guys are Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy and Lamarcus Aldridge. That's it. No you can't say Ronnie Brewer or anyone else because nobody was even considering taking someone like that with the no. 1 pick. We were also never going to take Roy so ya, Aldridge or Gay.

Not so far this season. Bargs has been significantly more efficient offensively, better on the glass, and much better defensively than Aldridge so far.

Aldridge is having a good season so far and I like his game but he'll likely lose some touches when (if) Oden starts playing.

Gay is the real smoke and mirror guy to me. He strikes me as nothing more than a volume shooter on a very bad team who regularly takes 20 shots to get 22 points while playing close to 40 minutes a game.

[08HEMI]

But thats OK, you have the right to support him and there's nothing wrong with it. What annoys me is your tendancy to discredit everybody else's opinion who even dares to question the Bargnani pick or Bargnani, the player, himself.

Not everyone, only the people that call him a stiff, useless, bust, garbage even when he does well and clearly shows improvements. These types of comments don't deserve any respect or credit and it shows you have the inability to accept when your wrong and correct your way of thinking. This is what I call obssession, you have entrenched yourself so deep into the Bargnani hate that you can't even acknowledge positive things from him when its right infront of your eyes. Some of his harshest critics have begun to talk about his improvements and how he is showing signs of being the player we all hoped but you continue to sit here everyday and find as many threads as you can where you can spue your hate towards this player and throw out words like stiff, bust, useless, garbage. I get the feeling you watch games and just itch to see this guy fail so you can run to this board and make fifty posts telling us how much he sucks or how big of a stiff he is and how BC is a failure because of it.

BC has done so much more for this franchise than that pick even if you think it was bad one, but yet it appears your entire judegment of him and all he has done rests on Bargnani even though there isn't really ever going to be a superstar from that draft that would make one be so upset about missing out on.

As for the Amare pick we strongly disagree, the GM makes the pick and he gets credit for it if it turns out good and he gets blamed if it doesn't. Just as Babcock got blamed for Hoffa even though it was rumored it wasn't the pick he wanted. He made the pick, he was the GM its on him either way. You now because of your obssession with Bargnani see BC as mediocre and in this discussion your seeing he has a decent draft track record and can't handle the positive talk so your reaching for something to discredit something, anything, anywhere you can just as you do when anything positive is being said about Bargnani.

You want respect from everyone and people to take your comments seriously then get rid of the stiff, bust, useless sort of talk and have a clean debate with facts. Never have I went to the extreme in my thinking of Bargnani to call him a superstar as you do in goign to the extreme in calling him a stiff.

[metaldaze]

I'm still a BC supporter, but man, it's really hard to overlook some of the failures considering the favourable position he was in when he took over the reigns from Babcock.

BC is one of the top paid GMs in the leagues, walked into the Raps organization with a 22-year old All-Star PF in Chris Bosh to build around, the runner-up Rookie of the Year in Charlie Villanueva to use as a trade chip, a dark horse of a player in Jose Calderon, $12 million dollars worth of cap space to play with, and the number one pick in the draft.

He overlooked the talent Jose had, and made a redundant trade Charlie V for TJ Ford trade. He drafted Bargnani first overall. He used the $12 million in cap space to sign Parker, Garbo, and Fred Jones. Two of the three were decent signings, but BC used up all our cap to peak us as a first-round and out team for years when he could've continued with the youth movement for another year, developed young players by giving them burn, and had another solid draft pick. I think BC went for the early glory by trying to get us into the playoffs asap, which he did, instead of taking his time so that he can ensure that when we do make the playoffs, we're there to stay.

Gherardini is another one who's failures are hard to overlook. Since he's been here, all I've been hearing about was drafting Bargnani, attempting to draft Bellinelli, and even some talk of Gallinari. There have been some real Euro talents (i.e Rudy Fernandez, Marc Gasol, etc) who have slipped through the cracks in the draft, and Gherardini was hired to help us catch these talents as an assistant to BC.

This is tough to say, and hear, but it's in the back of my mind. I try to ignore it and give BC & Gherardini the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard.

Thank you for speaking the truth we also have the least Athletic team in the whole league by far.

[Eating a Book]

I'm still a BC supporter, but man, it's really hard to overlook some of the failures considering the favourable position he was in when he took over the reigns from Babcock.

BC is one of the top paid GMs in the leagues, walked into the Raps organization with a 22-year old All-Star PF in Chris Bosh to build around, the runner-up Rookie of the Year in Charlie Villanueva to use as a trade chip, a dark horse of a player in Jose Calderon, $12 million dollars worth of cap space to play with, and the number one pick in the draft.

He overlooked the talent Jose had, and made a redundant trade Charlie V for TJ Ford trade. He drafted Bargnani first overall. He used the $12 million in cap space to sign Parker, Garbo, and Fred Jones. Two of the three were decent signings, but BC used up all our cap to peak us as a first-round and out team for years when he could've continued with the youth movement for another year, developed young players by giving them burn, and had another solid draft pick. I think BC went for the early glory by trying to get us into the playoffs asap, which he did, instead of taking his time so that he can ensure that when we do make the playoffs, we're there to stay.

Gherardini is another one who's failures are hard to overlook. Since he's been here, all I've been hearing about was drafting Bargnani, attempting to draft Bellinelli, and even some talk of Gallinari. There have been some real Euro talents (i.e Rudy Fernandez, Marc Gasol, etc) who have slipped through the cracks in the draft, and Gherardini was hired to help us catch these talents as an assistant to BC.

This is tough to say, and hear, but it's in the back of my mind. I try to ignore it and give BC & Gherardini the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard.

Thank you for speaking the truth we also have the least Athletic team in the whole league by far.

Have you seen the Spurs play this year?

[cheapfoul]

So what you're saying is that BC should be criticized by us for turning a 27 win team into a 47 win team in 1 year? Is that right?

[08HEMI]

Stop attacking posters Hemi and 90102.

Sorry man but im trying to attack the message not the poster and when the message is of anger sometimes its hard to counter without sounding like your attacking the person. Any how that was not my intention.