Week 2 Power Rankings (Pg 1 Updated)

[J-Roc]

Our 3-spot AND our 2-spot are so weak. Both Moon and Parker need to learn how to create scoring. If not by driving 1 on 1, they need to learn to come off screens like a Rip Hamilton does.

At their age, it's hard to 'learn'. If they haven't shown it now, they probably will never be able to do it...

I don't know. I think learning to move without the ball is about coaching and not about innate talent, like trying to get these guys to learn to drive the ball.

[marcroboy]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the stops in time

I think most people mentally set the bar for JO's performance relative to when we had TJ. The fact that he's getting paid more than Bosh and was trade for TJ AND Rasho, makes his performance now less acceptable. We have to set the bar a little higher. We don't pay someone 20 millions to alter shots and get into foul trouble almost every game.

I'm not bashing JO. I just expect more from him.

[Indiana Jones]

my argument: JO blocks dunk attempts so STFU haters.

[The_Hater]

Our 3-spot AND our 2-spot are so weak. Both Moon and Parker need to learn how to create scoring. If not by driving 1 on 1, they need to learn to come off screens like a Rip Hamilton does.

At their age, it's hard to 'learn'. If they haven't shown it now, they probably will never be able to do it...

I don't know. I think learning to move without the ball is about coaching and not about innate talent, like trying to get these guys to learn to drive the ball.

Seriously? If they were still 15-20 years old, I might agree with you to a degree. But we're talking about a 28 year old and a 33 year old. They're not suddenly going to gain slashing skills that weren't there previously. That's why it drives me nuts everytime Leo tells us that Moon should be going to the basket more. I don't care how athletic he is, it's just not in his game Leo! And you don't want to start getting compared to Leo Rautins now, do you?

Good coaches take players and put them into situations that best utilize their talents, they don't take players away from their strengths in hopes of teaching them new skills that obviously aren't part of their make-up. By the time players are past a certain age they pretty much are what they are. Unless you have a list of examples of players that suddenly became much improved slashers past the age of 28?

[Indiana Jones]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the spots in time

sorry but you're wrong and you don't know a thing about basketball. have you even watched the games?

Warning for personal attacks. -Shaazzam

[Komodo]

O'Neals' on-court/off-court numbers are, by far, the worst on the team.

When he's on the court, we are -5.0 in scoring differential per 48 minutes.
When he's off the court, we are +26.6 in scoring differential per 48 minutes.

Horrible.

That's crazy. And I agree with Hater. Is there any end in sight? JO's been good defensively, but so has Bargs. On offense it's a different story. Luckily, our inconsistencies can be put to the test tonight.

[Hank_Scorpio]

I can't see how anyone can say they are happy with O'Neal's play thus far.

I think there is enough there to be able to say that he should get better, but if this is what we are getting from him, then it wasn't worth giving up TJ Ford.

Having said that, I'm waiting until about 20 games in before I draw any final conclusions.

[supersub15]

Haha. It took only 6 games. Gold!

[halfcourt]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the spots in time

sorry but you're wrong and you don't know a thing about basketball. have you even watched the games?

funny how these nuthuggers can't come with any proof that JO has been a positive. JO hasn't drawn a single charge(maybe one, i 'm not sure) in 6 games so far, that was supposed to be his specialty. He is fouling at an alarming rate which forces Smitch to play Bosh more and Bosh is playing more than 40 minutes per game thanks to slowneal's ability to stay out of foul trouble. His PER is at 10 which is worse than Hakeem during his last year with us and JO has been by far and away the worst player on the offensive end, he has the lowest shooting %'s and turns the ball over more than anyone

[dacrusha]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the spots in time

sorry but you're wrong and you don't know a thing about basketball. have you even watched the games?

When JO is on the court, we are being outscored by the opposition... when his $22 million butt is parked on the bench, we outscore our opposition by a wide margin.

How does this translate to him playing well?

[youngLion]

http://fiyastarter.com/fs-pages/fs-spor ... k08-2.html

7)Raptors: J.O. is deferring to Bosh a bit too much.

I disagree as JO's offense has been awful. There's also an interesting take on TJ and the Pacers:

"19)Pacers: TJ is a lost cause. I thought he had greatness written all over him. Now, he can still get a big ass tattoo with "GREATNESS" on his arm somewhere, but he aint never gonna be a great player. "

[Yuri Vaultin]

Haha. It took only 6 games. Gold!

This must be a record. (Not including Hoffa)

[DarkKnight]

The "JO is grate just looks at out WINNINGZ" crowd is not interested in things like statistics and proof. They say that by "watching the game" they are sure they can tell the effect he is having. They also enjoy bringing up things that cannot be proven or quantified, or which have specious correlation/causation relationships.

The stats all point to JO being our worst regular player. Watching the beginning of every game this season, where the raps fall behind in the first half of the first quarter, show that this starting group is not in rhythm and JO is a big part of that. And the arguments about bosh being so much better because of JO have no proof behind them, 1) because bosh isn't better than he was the last couple years, he's just playing more minutes, and 2) because then bosh/bargs have been out there they've been better than the bosh/JO combo.

Edit: Some proof on the bosh thing: per 36 minutes, scoring the last 2 years and this year: 21.1, 22.2, 22.9. Rebounding per 36, 10.0, 8.7, 9.5. Assists, 2.4, 2.5, 2.2. TS% 57.7, 58.8, 60.7. So bosh has been playing more and shooting the ball fractionally better, and rebounding at about his average. I don't see this big JO-led improvement in his overall numbers. As for the team, points per 100 possensions when bosh is on the court - 113. Points given up per 100 possessions when bosh is on the court - 103. Bargs? 112 and 102. JO? 85 and 102.

[Shaazzam]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the spots in time

sorry but you're wrong and you don't know a thing about basketball. have you even watched the games?

When JO is on the court, we are being outscored by the opposition... when his $22 million butt is parked on the bench, we outscore our opposition by a wide margin.

How does this translate to him playing well?

He gets too many touches and we need more production from the wings. Not saying he is playing well, but I think our lack of consistent perimeter options exacerbates the fact that he is a low efficiency scorer. If we had someone that would break down defences than he could get easier touches, which could raise his efficiency.

I'm not saying that to let him off the hook, he needs to play better, but he should not be a primary option on offence. He should just get enough touches to keep him involved.

Give him a little sugar but not the whole cake.

[reck0n3r]

Haha. It took only 6 games. Gold!

Yeah, wasn't there some ESPN dude who made a comment that raps fans would turn on him very early in the season? Prophetic.

I haven't liked JO's production thus far, BUT I don't know how you can say he hasn't had a positive effect on the team. I'm pretty sure his defensive intensity rubs off on everyone on the team, and it's great to see that we've finally got some toughness on our squad vs the past 4-5 seasons. He may not be playing well right now, but assuming he can stay somewhat healthy and can find his offense, he should be okay.

And if he goes down or ends up being crappier than he has been on offense? Well we've got a much improved Andrea Bargnani frothing at the mouth at the opportunity to show what he can do with increased burn.

[halfcourt]

The "JO is grate just looks at out WINNINGZ" crowd is not interested in things like statistics and proof. They say that by "watching the game" they are sure they can tell the effect he is having. They also enjoy bringing up things that cannot be proven or quantified, or which have specious correlation/causation relationships.

The stats all point to JO being our worst regular player. Watching the beginning of every game this season, where the raps fall behind in the first half of the first quarter, show that this starting group is not in rhythm and JO is a big part of that. And the arguments about bosh being so much better because of JO have no proof behind them, 1) because bosh isn't better than he was the last couple years, he's just playing more minutes, and 2) because then bosh/bargs have been out there they've been better than the bosh/JO combo.
.

this point hasn't been emphasized enough, this whole "JO brings a defensive mentality to the starting lineup" is bs, it seems like every game the bench and primarily Bosh seem to pull us out of the mess the starting lineup creates

[STEELE_34]

Like most on here i cant say am happy with jo's offense however for a guy that's been injured and haven't played much over the last few seasons am sure its gonna take a lil while to get his offense back.
on the defensive end this guy is doing a great job/blocking shots/rebounding/changing shots etc..

if anyone don't realize bosh numbers are better and its prob because of jo inside presence is really not watching the game.

we really do need some better wing players who can take the ball to the hoop/better perimeter defense and a better backup at guard.

[dacrusha]

Please stop this JO is playing great nonsense, the man is picking up fouls left and right and it doesn't entirely have to with the porous perimeter D. He is noticeably a step or two slower and he's getting a bit lazy with his d and i can't remember him drawing a single charge which was supposed to be specialty. Instead he gets called for the block every time he tries to draw an offensive foul because he's slow and does not get to the spots in time

sorry but you're wrong and you don't know a thing about basketball. have you even watched the games?

When JO is on the court, we are being outscored by the opposition... when his $22 million butt is parked on the bench, we outscore our opposition by a wide margin.

How does this translate to him playing well?

He gets too many touches and we need more production from the wings. Not saying he is playing well, but I think our lack of consistent perimeter options exacerbates the fact that he is a low efficiency scorer. If we had someone that would break down defences than he could get easier touches, which could raise his efficiency.

If what you're saying is true, then Bosh's numbers would be suffering as well... which is not happening. In fact, because Bosh is absolutely dominating, it should give O'Neal far more easier touches and open trips to the rim.

And what about the fact that our team is MUCH better with O'Neal on the bench? There isn't an excuse in the world to explain this one.

[The_Hater]

I think the funniest part in all of this is that JO himself has been interviewed and is highly dissapointed in his play to date. Remember that this guy is a 6-time all-star who has had several seasons approaching the 20/10 mark. Yet when myself and ours mention a similar dissapointment in his play up pops a faction of apologists to tell us without mincing words that we're dead wrong with our opinion.

Guys, JO is on OUR side of this argument. Seriously.

[DarthBane]

Our 3-spot AND our 2-spot are so weak. Both Moon and Parker need to learn how to create scoring. If not by driving 1 on 1, they need to learn to come off screens like a Rip Hamilton does.

Parker knows how to come off screens. But those plays you see where Rip gets a wide open jumpshot after coming off one or two screens are designed plays. Parker gets a similar play call for him once in a while where he cuts from under the basket, turns around the pick at the elbow and gets a foul line jumper where he is usually pretty wide open.

Though i think for the most part, Smitch would rather run the standard pick and roll than try and run plays for specific people, which is why you rarely see anything else out of our offense.