Il Mago, Evil Genius Necromancer

[Condi Rice]

Everyone knows Bargnani and Bosh can't co-exist, Bargnani definately knows it, two jump shooting PF's don't make a Dwight. So who will be the "One"? I think it is becoming more apparant to the trained eye (in the art of Michael Moore not to be confused with Mikki Moore) that Il Mago is trying to rid himself of his Multiverse Counterpart aka Boshelicious, aka the RuPaul of "big men". So how is he doing it?

But first an interlude, Into the past of our two star-crossed ballers we go! Like a castrating asian housewife, Bosh has been ordering Bargnani around since he was a rookie, yelling at him in team huddles, humiliating him in front of his teammates, fans and lest we forget Mop Girl. But of course Andrea does not forget, nor forgive. After Andrea got his big contract, which was by no means in anyway a face saving move by BC, you would think he would get some respect from Bosh. But NO, Bosh is still beating on him like he's a flaccid appendage. Ordering him to grow a spine, stiffen up play D, rebound, oh the hypocrisy! Ridiculing the team's interior D, a not so subtle slap in the face of our beloved Italian Necromancer, aka Il Mago.

Bargnani has had enough. Bargnani plots his revenge with a calculus so chilling that those sultry creatures of the tropical islands in heat would find themselves all at once chaste. The means are quite simple actually, but diabolical nonetheless, and of course wholly expected from our evil genius necromancer. Bosh orders more D? Bargnani simply makes a half-hearted attempt at helping on Jose "El Matador" Calderon's man, leaving himself guarding no one. Bosh orders more rebounding? Bargnani simply boxes out one of his teammates. There is simply nothing to lose for Bargnani, and only so much to gain. The contract is in hand, nothing to worry about there. A losing season will guarantee Bosh's demise as a Raptor, and that is exactly what our evil genious necromancer is conjuring.

Two men enter, one man leaves.

[Kabookalu]

Haven't read it all but I do think Bosh and Bargnani can co-exist, just not in this dumb system Triano has implemented. I've said this before, we have all the makings of a fabulous running team. Bosh and Bargnani would have field days running the court. If there's anything the finals taught me, it's that having a big man that can run up and down the court is probably more important than an athletic wing because big men are always the last players to get back on defense, as evident of the NBA Finals last season. And guess what? We have two of them! And then we also have an athletic swingmen in DeRozan too.

It's unfortunate that we have a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) point guard who is allergic to the fastbreak running the team. We have two big men that can run the court like gazelles, why the f*ck are we not utilizing this? I really wish we had Steve Nash.

[Ted Lasso]

Haven't read it all but I do think Bosh and Bargnani can co-exist, just not in this dumb system Triano has implemented. I've said this before, we have all the makings of a fabulous running team. Bosh and Bargnani would have field days running the court. If there's anything the finals taught me, it's that having a big man that can run up and down the court is probably more important than an athletic wing because big men are always the last players to get back on defense, as evident of the NBA Finals last season. And guess what? We have two of them! And then we also have an athletic swingmen in DeRozan too.

It's unfortunate that we have a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) point guard who is allergic to the fastbreak running the team. We have two big men that can run the court like gazelles, why the f*ck are we not utilizing this? I really wish we had Steve Nash.

Then why don't they? If it's all Calderon's fault, then Chris and Andrea should certainly be getting fast break touches when led by Hedo or Jack since they apperantly are made to run. Yet it just doesn't happen. When we do get out and run --which actually happens reasonably often, we are 10th in the league in pace-- it's rarely ever Bosh or Bargnani scoring. That is because in reality Chris is a half court player through and through and Andrea is only slightly more useful in fast break scenarios because of his ability to spot up as a trailer. That is it.

Just because a player is fast or athletic doesn't mean he is a good fit on a running/fast breaking/dunking team. You'd think Jamario Moon and Joey Graham would have been lesson enough.

[Kabookalu]

Then why don't they? If it's all Calderon's fault, then Chris and Andrea should certainly be getting fast break touches when led by Hedo or Jack since they apperantly are made to run. Yet it just doesn't happen. When we do get fast break points, it's rarely ever Bosh or Bargnani scoring. That is because in reality Chris is a half court player through and through and Andrea is only slightly more useful in fast break scenarios because of his ability to spot up as a trailer. That is it.

Just because a player is fast or athletic doesn't mean he is a good fit on a running/fast breaking/dunking team. You'd think Jamario Moon and Joey Graham would have been lesson enough.

The Suns last year was a halfcourt team despite having Steve Nash who is one of the best players at running the fastbreak, in fact they only had one player suited for halfcourt in Shaq. People think it's so easy to have a run n' gun team when it's a lot more complicated than that; there needs to be a system and it's clear we are, or at least Triano and Calderon, are determined to make this a halfcourt team. Bargnani and Bosh don't get points off the fastbreak because we aren't a fastbreak team even if we should be.

[Ted Lasso]

Then why don't they? If it's all Calderon's fault, then Chris and Andrea should certainly be getting fast break touches when led by Hedo or Jack since they apperantly are made to run. Yet it just doesn't happen. When we do get fast break points, it's rarely ever Bosh or Bargnani scoring. That is because in reality Chris is a half court player through and through and Andrea is only slightly more useful in fast break scenarios because of his ability to spot up as a trailer. That is it.

Just because a player is fast or athletic doesn't mean he is a good fit on a running/fast breaking/dunking team. You'd think Jamario Moon and Joey Graham would have been lesson enough.

The Suns last year was a halfcourt team despite having Steve Nash who is one of the best players at running the fastbreak, in fact they only had one player suited for halfcourt in Shaq. People think it's so easy to have a run n' gun team when it's a lot more complicated than that; there needs to be a system and it's clear we are, or at least Triano and Calderon, are determined to make this a halfcourt team. Bargnani and Bosh don't get points off the fastbreak because we aren't a fastbreak team even if we should be.

You are only strengthening the argument against your claim. The Suns had a great offence and Steve Kerr attempted to address a problem that did not exist by trying to turn them into a half court team. How did that work out for them?

We already have a wildly efficient offence. And you're saying we need to change it up. It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Kabookalu]

You are only strengthening the argument against your claim. The Suns had a great offence and Steve Kerr attempted to address a problem that did not exist by trying to turn them into a half court team. How did that work out for them?

The Suns didn't make the playoffs playing halfcourt? And they switched to run n' gun and now they're 3rd in the west? The Suns last year at 19 games were 12-7, right now they're 14-5, and really Frye is no upgrade over Shaq run n' gun or not and you also have to take into account the fact that all of these old players the Suns have aged as well. The Suns this year are better offensively and better defensively while their talent downgraded. Run n' gun is like a defense in itself and as you can see from past run n' gun teams, like the Mavs led by Nash and the Suns led by Nash, their defense have been middle in the pack.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Let me start by say our offense isnt the problem, im just refuting the claim that we can be a running team.

First in order to be a good fast break team you need a defensive rebounder who can clean the glass and make an outlet pass, neither Bargs or Bosh is great at either. They may get the board, but none pivot and look down court. Ive noticed this since TJ, we have our PGs/ball handlers come back to the ball. Constantly our bigs will move the ball laterally or wait to hand it off. Another reason we also cant break out is because we pack the paint defensively, and bring in everybody to rebound.

I do think ultimately what seperated TJ and Calderon is why we cant push the ball anymore, in that Jose is a conservative player, TJ is willing to be more creative, plus his speed created a fast break in itself. I dont think this is an indictment of Jose, or anything, its just they are suited for different styles. The reason we kept Jose was his efficiently in the PnR (not his D, or pushing the break), which is our offense, and getting a guy like Hedo makes Jose more expendable, and less valuable to this team, thus making him a scapegoat.

I dont get why we are still talking offense anyways, more fast break points, more this and that. Its obvious we need to change our whole defensively philosophy, through coaching/personnel/management/etc...

[Ted Lasso]

You are only strengthening the argument against your claim. The Suns had a great offence and Steve Kerr attempted to address a problem that did not exist by trying to turn them into a half court team. How did that work out for them?

The Suns didn't make the playoffs playing halfcourt? And they switched to run n' gun and now they're 3rd in the west? The Suns last year at 19 games were 12-7, right now they're 14-5, and really Frye is no upgrade over Shaq run n' gun or not and you also have to take into account the fact that all of these old players the Suns have aged as well. The Suns this year are better offensively and better defensively while their talent downgraded. Run n' gun is like a defense in itself and as you can see from past run n' gun teams, like the Mavs led by Nash and the Suns led by Nash, their defense have been middle in the pack.

I have no idea what your point is or where you're trying to take this discussion. Just to be safe, i'll say that it is delusional to suggest that playing at a faster pace would directly result in the improvement of our defence.

For the last time, what you're proposing would be highly risky even if Chris and Andrea were suited to be featured in an offence that would lead the league in pace simply because our current offensive setup has been a great success. Unfortunately that isn't even the case. It's an all-around bad idea to force the issue. Offence is the least of our worries.

[Kabookalu]

I have no idea what your point is or where you're trying to take this discussion. Just to be safe, i'll say that it is delusional to suggest that playing at a faster pace would directly result in the improvement of our defence.

Yeah, ignore the fact that the Suns played their worse defense when playing half court, I understand. They have improved defensively, even by just a bit, while their core has gotten older (very old I should add) while talent downgraded. Hmmmm it couldn't be because they run could it?

First in order to be a good fast break team you need a defensive rebounder who can clean the glass and make an outlet pass, neither Bargs or Bosh is great at either.

That's funny I thought Bosh was leading the league in rebounds. And who in today's league is a good outlet passer anyways? Only guy I could think of is Kevin Love. You don't need a Bill Walton or Bill Russell in this league to have a successful run n' gun team.

[Ted Lasso]

I have no idea what your point is or where you're trying to take this discussion. Just to be safe, i'll say that it is delusional to suggest that playing at a faster pace would directly result in the improvement of our defence.

Yeah, ignore the fact that the Suns played their worse defense when playing half court, I understand. They have improved defensively, even by just a bit, while their core has gotten older (very old I should add) while talent downgraded. Hmmmm it couldn't be because they run could it?

What does that have to do with anything? The Suns' direction was the exact opposite of ours. For them, what worked was running. Kerr messed with that because of his idealistic vision. You want to do the exact same thing. Except for us what works is our current pace and you want to speed things up for no reason.

And while i feel guilty about dignifying the suggestion with a serious response once again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these Toronto Raptors would play better defence if they ran more. In fact Andrea might have steam coming out of his ears due to malfunction/confusion and faint at the top of the key every other game.

[Kabookalu]

What does that have to do with anything? The Suns' direction was the exact opposite of ours. For them, what worked was running. Kerr messed with that because of his idealistic vision. You want to do the exact same thing. Except for us what works is our current pace and you want to speed things up for no reason.

And while i feel guilty about dignifying the suggestion with a serious response once again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these Toronto Raptors would play better defence if they ran more. In fact Andrea might have steam coming out of his ears out of malfunction/confusion and faint at the top of the key every other game.

So will his opponent to whom Bargnani is more physically fit to endure the running in the first place. And yeah things are really working out for us, we're 7-14. There is absolutely no way that Channing Frye and Amar'e Stoudemire are better interior defenders than Andrea Bargnani and Chris Bosh, yet somehow they're better, and Nash isn't that much better than Calderon at defense, if at all, especially at this stage. Yet they're MUCH better than us. Could it be Grant over the Hill? Cause there's no way it can be Jason Richardson that's making this large of a difference between us defensively.

When you have two soft finesse big men that can run up and down the court, you don't go halfcourt. At least when we run we can somewhat hide their deficiencies, make other slower more physical big men play into our pace, instead we're playing into theirs. We're not taking advantage of our strengths.

[vini_vidi_vici]

First in order to be a good fast break team you need a defensive rebounder who can clean the glass and make an outlet pass, neither Bargs or Bosh is great at either.

That's funny I thought Bosh was leading the league in rebounds. And who in today's league is a good outlet passer anyways? Only guy I could think of is Kevin Love. You don't need a Bill Walton or Bill Russell in this league to have a successful run n' gun team.

Again, Bosh does turn and pivot, which was the following statement, but okay then. And actually yes, there are numerous ones, we just watched a team Sunday who grabs the rebound and immediately pivots to turn down court. And despite not being a good rebounding team. Heres an article to accompany my argument and prove that we didnt fast break last year despite having one of the best rebound/outlet guys in the NBA in Marion, Caldy was still a negative and Bosh hardly was effecient either. Its more of an indictment on the team, outside Marion, who skewed the stats im sure. It doesnt have this years but I can bet its atrocious.

edit: wrong link.
http://www.hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=outletPass&discussion=False&leaders=False&year=2009

[Kabookalu]

Again, Bosh does turn and pivot, which was the following statement, but okay then. And actually yes, there are numerous ones, we just watched a team Sunday who grabs the rebound and immediately pivots to turn down court. And despite not being a good rebounding team. Heres an article to accompany my argument and prove that we didnt fast break last year despite having one of the best rebound/outlet guys in the NBA in Marion, Caldy was still a negative and Bosh hardly was effecient either. Its more of an indictment on the team, outside Marion, who skewed the stats im sure. It doesnt have this years but I can bet its atrocious.

http://www.hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=outletPass&discussion=True

Doesn't that really prove my point though that even when we had Marion, who was great at the running game and we made more of an attempt to run last year when we got him, we still weren't a running team because the system we ran is all half court?

[Ted Lasso]

What does that have to do with anything? The Suns' direction was the exact opposite of ours. For them, what worked was running. Kerr messed with that because of his idealistic vision. You want to do the exact same thing. Except for us what works is our current pace and you want to speed things up for no reason.

And while i feel guilty about dignifying the suggestion with a serious response once again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these Toronto Raptors would play better defence if they ran more. In fact Andrea might have steam coming out of his ears out of malfunction/confusion and faint at the top of the key every other game.

So will his opponent to whom Bargnani is more physically fit to endure the running in the first place. And yeah things are really working out for us, we're 7-14. There is absolutely no way that Channing Frye and Amar'e Stoudemire are better interior defenders than Andrea Bargnani and Chris Bosh, yet somehow they're better, and Nash isn't that much better than Calderon at defense, if at all, especially at this stage. Yet they're MUCH better than us. Could it be Grant over the Hill? Cause there's no way it can be Jason Richardson that's making this large of a difference between us defensively.

When you have two soft finesse big men that can run up and down the court, you don't go halfcourt. At least when we run we can somewhat hide their deficiencies, make other slower more physical big men play into our pace, instead we're playing into theirs. We're not taking advantage of our strengths.

My God man! You kept questioning our offence, which is absolutely elite, so in that sense yes, things are working out. But of course, you already knew that was what i had referred to.

Your entire argument has boiled down to a flimsy claim that our defence would improve if we ran more. Where do you come up with this stuff? You have no applicable basis whatsoever. If anything better defensive teams tend to play at a slower pace. And the Phoenix comparison is moot on a number of levels. For one, you do realize there is a variable in basketball called coaching, right? Some are better than it than others. And the gentleman we have at the helm happens to be a Canadian of Italian descent.

[Kabookalu]

My God man! You kept questioning our offence, which is absolutely elite, so in that sense yes, things are working out. But of course, you already knew that was what i had referred to.

Your entire argument has boiled down to a flimsy claim that our defence would improve if we ran more. Where do you come up with this stuff? You have no applicable basis whatsoever. If anything better defensive teams tend to play at a slower pace. And the Phoenix comparison is moot on a number of levels. For one, you do realize there is a variable in basketball called coaching, right?

Please I was a Pistons fan back in the early decade and Alvin Gentry was a terrible coach. I don't think he even lasted a season there, and I believe he's been an assistant since then until now. Didn't think you knew that though, right? Probably didn't, but I don't blame you. And what I'm suggesting is that yes while our offense is good, it can be better if we run because we have some potential pieces to make it all work. What we don't have is a willing point guard to run it. And I've used Phoenix as an example because right now they're built similar to us. Somehow despite all the similarities, they're much better defensively than we are. The difference? They run, we're halfcourt. And I really doubt Jarred Dudley and Grant Hill are such great defensive players to create such a humongous gap between us and them.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Again, Bosh does turn and pivot, which was the following statement, but okay then. And actually yes, there are numerous ones, we just watched a team Sunday who grabs the rebound and immediately pivots to turn down court. And despite not being a good rebounding team. Heres an article to accompany my argument and prove that we didnt fast break last year despite having one of the best rebound/outlet guys in the NBA in Marion, Caldy was still a negative and Bosh hardly was effecient either. Its more of an indictment on the team, outside Marion, who skewed the stats im sure. It doesnt have this years but I can bet its atrocious.

http://www.hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=outletPass&discussion=True

Doesn't that really prove my point though that even when we had Marion, who was great at the running game and we made more of an attempt to run last year when we got him, we still weren't a running team because the system we ran is all half court?

Obviously you didnt read my intial post, so ill say it again, because a guy can rebound doesnt make give him a great FBTR, see two of guys from last year, Bosh/Evans. Both great rebounders in their own right but neither outlets the ball, thus making it impossible to run. Infact even when Jose gets the ball he doesnt run, whether its philosophy as you claim, or talent, is irrelevant. Your argument was Bosh is a fantastic rebounder thus he must be a good outlet passer he isnt. My point is no matter how good our offense is, its half court offense, incapable of running with being so poor at those factors. Taking things out of context doesnt help.

[Ted Lasso]

My God man! You kept questioning our offence, which is absolutely elite, so in that sense yes, things are working out. But of course, you already knew that was what i had referred to.

Your entire argument has boiled down to a flimsy claim that our defence would improve if we ran more. Where do you come up with this stuff? You have no applicable basis whatsoever. If anything better defensive teams tend to play at a slower pace. And the Phoenix comparison is moot on a number of levels. For one, you do realize there is a variable in basketball called coaching, right?

Please I was a Pistons fan back in the early decade and Alvin Gentry was a terrible coach. I don't think he even lasted a season there, and I believe he's been an assistant since then until now. Didn't think you knew that though, right? Probably didn't, but I don't blame you. And what I'm suggesting is that yes while our offense is good, it can be better if we run because we have some potential pieces to make it all work. What we don't have is a willing point guard to run it. And I've used Phoenix as an example because right now they're built similar to us. Somehow despite all the similarities, they're much better defensively than we are. The difference? They run, we're halfcourt. And I really doubt Jarred Dudley and Grant Hill are such great defensive players to create such a humongous gap between us and them.

I love that italicized bit. Make an unsubstantiated claim about someone. Assume it's true. And then make fun. Smooth.

Anyway, the Suns get 2.5 more possession a game than we do. They are fifth in the league. We are 11th. That's what you're making a fuss about. That's what's going to save our defence. But whatever.. Andrea and Chris are born to run, our offence isn't good enough, and it's all Jose's fault. Hope you get your way.

[JadedRaptorsFan]

To be a Good run n gun team starts with the PG, if you have a PG that is worried about making the perfect pass all the time without getting intercepted then stick to halfcourt, but if your a PG that likes to take chances it seems they are better suited to the run n gun game

[Kabookalu]

Obviously you didnt read my intial post, so ill say it again, because a guy can rebound doesnt make give him a great FBTR, see two of guys from last year, Bosh/Evans. Both great rebounders in their own right but neither outlets the ball, thus making it impossible to run. Infact even when Jose gets the ball he doesnt run, whether its philosophy as you claim, or talent, is irrelevant. Your argument was Bosh is a fantastic rebounder thus he must be a good outlet passer he isnt. My point is no matter how good our offense is, its half court offense, incapable of running with being so poor at those factors. Taking things out of context doesnt help.

Ummm Channing Frye and Amar'e Stoudemire are in no way any better than Bosh and Bargnani at outlet passing. And you obviously read my post wrong, when did I say Bosh was a fantastic outlet passer? Nope, don't remember saying that. k thnx bye.

[Kabookalu]

I love that italicized bit. Make an unsubstantiated claim about someone. Assume it's true. And then make fun. Smooth.

Anyway, the Suns get 2.5 more possession a game than we do. They are fifth in the league. We are 11th. That's what you're making a fuss about. That's what's going to save our defence. But whatever.. Andrea and Chris are born to run, our offence isn't good enough, and it's all Jose's fault. Hope you get your way.

I'm so glad you saw the light of day, you started to worry me.

To be a Good run n gun team starts with the PG, if you have a PG that is worried about making the perfect pass all the time without getting intercepted then stick to halfcourt, but if your a PG that likes to take chances it seems they are better suited to the run n gun game

Yeah, that's why I want to can Jose Calderon.