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Bargnani"s Defence

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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#41 » by djsunyc » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:21 pm

theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Bargs is going to be here for a real long time. People here act like BC made some huge blunder with the guy. Act like investing his his development, which is what you do with young players, was somehow a BC self interest and not a Toronto Raptors interest. I applaud BC for having the resolve not to listen to the chatter. We've got no contract issues with Andrea. We have a good player, locked up. This game, to me, highlighted a lot of the reasons for his struggles and for his resurgence. Bargs missed like 4 shots early, and Howard was scoring. I check the game thread, and posters were though with him. Under Sam, he would have went to the bench and that would have been the story. Guess what the guy, to me, has shown that he can't shoot 100% but he' hits big shots and makes a positive impact on his team winning.

We've got a decent team, with Hedo, Jack, Jose, Bargs, Derozan locked up. And so many posters act like it's a bad thing. Have you seen some of the roster's we've had here? We'll have to wait and see what happens to CB. To all those who say with out CB we'll be doomed, I say you're just making assumptions, that if Bosh goes, we lose all his points and rebounds. I think it's Bosh that needs to worry about losing his points and rebounds, if he ends up somewhere where everything is not going to be run though him and he's not afforded the "franchise" status.

I think points wise, we'd get them from other people, we'd need someone else in the front court for Defense and rebounding. If you've read the Simmons Book, and the quote in it from some of the league's great players like Isiah (hey, he was a great player) Russel and what not, you'll see their idea of the secret to basketball is when your best players do not care about stats. Despite how much of the league's set up provides incentives for players to do the opposite, it's the teams who focus more on winning that individual achievement.

Even Kobe and Lebron know. They may be great scorers, but they do not approach a game to score and rebounds and rack up as many assists as they can. They now, they didn't always, approach a game like how can we win. There's a big difference between a guy trying to score as much as he can, and get as many rebounds and assists that he can, and a guy trying to win. It's not always the same thing. I think Dwight knows the secret. His ppg could be higher than it is now, but that would not make the magic more successful. He may average less points than he's capable of but he does so with a high %.

I think stats are way overblown, I think people should rely on their impressions when watching the game. If you watch a game and feel a guy played well and helped his team, would looking at the boxscore change your mind? Or if you thought a guy did a poor job and did not help his team, would the boxscore change your mind? Did Howard play well? He has 20 and 12 right so he must have had a good game? If you feel after watching the playoffs last year that Hedo hit some big clutch shots, can anyone show you numbers that would change your mind.

Anyway, I'm done ranting. Andrea's not a traditional C, but he's a good player. And i think it's a positive thing that he signed the contract he signed, and even if every other poster here disagreed, I'd still feel that way.


awesome post.

too much over analysis of stats. the team is playing well. we got off to a somewhat rough start but we were once 11-17 and now 18-18. and our confidence is building...our chemistry is building...and our players are performing better. sit back and enjoy. otherwise, you're missing out on all the fun.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#42 » by J-Roc » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:26 pm

theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Bargs is going to be here for a real long time. People here act like BC made some huge blunder with the guy. Act like investing his his development, which is what you do with young players, was somehow a BC self interest and not a Toronto Raptors interest.

We've got a decent team, with Hedo, Jack, Jose, Bargs, Derozan locked up.


I think the argument is that instead of investing time in a new PF, BC should have worked with the PF we already had and tried to surround him with better players to have more than just a "decent" team.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#43 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:34 pm

I can see why if a player thinks the team has no chance to compete, that they try to turn lemons into lemonade and take solace in their individual achievement. I think there were a few years there, where, for Bosh, where that was really the all you could expect the guy to do. When he signed his last extension it was coming off a bad year team wise, so without that silver lining we may have lost him then. I hope he stays, but imo. if he does stay, and he does sign a max deal, we'll only get the true value of that, if Bosh, like he has shown the ability to do like in the Charlotte game, does not worry about justifying the contract with point and rebounding totals, but with playoff and team success.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#44 » by mack_435 » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:49 pm

Bargs man to man defense has always been solid but he seems to have taken another step lately... HELP DENFENSE still needs work but it has been slowly improving too!! As for motivating bargs, I think he just needs more touches on the offensive end IN THE POST when he's banging down there for position on offense, it seems to give him more inspiration to fight for position on the defensive end too.... If bargs ever becomes a consistent low post treat look out! he becomes nearly impossible to guard... If you put a banger on bargs, he can bring him out to the three point line and drive to the hoop or shoot open threes or if you put the athetic smaller guy on bargs he will take him in the post and score...
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#45 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jan 7, 2010 2:50 pm

J-Roc wrote:
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Bargs is going to be here for a real long time. People here act like BC made some huge blunder with the guy. Act like investing his his development, which is what you do with young players, was somehow a BC self interest and not a Toronto Raptors interest.

We've got a decent team, with Hedo, Jack, Jose, Bargs, Derozan locked up.


I think the argument is that instead of investing time in a new PF, BC should have worked with the PF we already had and tried to surround him with better players to have more than just a "decent" team.


In Barg's first year we made the playoff's when we hadn't in a while before. Bargs is not the sole reason, but he helped that cause and he helped us in the playoffs. We were bad enough to get the top pick, and the next season we won the division, tied the for the best record in franchise history, and we're a picked off pass away from possibly advancing as far in the playoffs as we ever had, and people act like BC came in and tried to regress the team and not improve it. The next year we stagnated, and I think it was due to coaching, and BC must have a greed, because he canned Sam early into next season.

Before that he tries to address the weakness that we had while Andrea was developing and make us players in 2010 by bringing that big front court mate to pair with Bosh. And it didn't work. BC was not content to wait it out, especially with CB's contract status looming, so he made another move to get out from JO's massive contract and get some flexibility to make changes. And we did, and it helped, but not before playoff chances were dashed. The next off season, with very few tools, BC managed to bring in pieces to turn this team around, to bring in Turk, to acquire Jack, to acquire Amir, and to show patience not to part with an asset.

So much here is made about not getting that allstar wing to take the big shots, and a center who can average 10 rebounds but if you read Bosh's quotes, he wants those shots, and he wants those rebounds, that his franchise status affords him. He said as a franchise player, he gets all the shots he wants, and gets to rebound, and make the all star team every year, what's not to like. He did not do all that alone. He had help. When asked what it would be like to paly with Howard, CB himself, said he didn't think it would work, as they like to occupy the same place, and Howard is a DPOY and the epitome of a defensive Centre. All those things it's not fair to ask pf to do, CB wants to do. He said he want to make the shot not be the guy giving the high five to the guy making the shot. He also said, on his dvd, if VC had stayed he would not have had the accomplishments he's had. Maybe we as a team would have accomplished more, but CB, individually would not have. So I wonder to all those who say BC was not building around CB, wasn't he? Or was he not building around CB they way you would have used CB. Seems to me he's built around CB the way CB wants to be built around.

CB wanted Jose to come back, he said so, CB thought the JO trade was going be a killer, he said so, CB wanted JO moved, it happened. I don't see where BC has been anything but accommodating to CB. Now it hasn't always worked out, but even CB himself knows that had a lot to do with the performance of the players, himself included. He was as harsh or harsher than any of his detractors here in regards to his performance last year.

And I'm not saying this to slag CB, but just to those who think BC wasn't trying to accommodate him and put a good team around him.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#46 » by Live Free » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:07 pm

theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:long post


That's an oblivious excuse.

Let me put it this way.. the Raptors roster right now as is not a 2nd round team, period. We are doomed as a mediocre team. Andrea Bargnani as an individual player has made some strides and has undeniable talent, however it is painfully obvious that he's playing out of position. There is no doubt in my mind that he would not be playing the center position on any other team in the league, his biggest weaknesses are exactly what are needed as strengths for a center.

The fact that he was initially brought in as a SF, dangled to the bench as a backup PF, then forced to start at C shows BC's self interest in Andrea and not the Raptors. It is crystal clear that Andrea is a PF that need's to be complimented by a defensive C and a scoring wing the same way Bosh does. But like you not so subliminally suggested you would rather it be Bosh as the odd man out. Not Surprised

As for your 'it doesn't matter who gets the stats' suggestion, that works when players are giving up individual stats and success for team benefit. In this case we need those players to put up individual stats relative to their position for team success
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#47 » by djsunyc » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:17 pm

Live Free wrote:
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:long post


That's an oblivious excuse.

Let me put it this way.. the Raptors roster right now as is not a 2nd round team, period. We are doomed as a mediocre team. Andrea Bargnani as an individual player has made some strides and has undeniable talent, however it is painfully obvious that he's playing out of position. There is no doubt in my mind that he would not be playing the center position on any other team in the league, his biggest weaknesses are exactly what are needed as strengths for a center.

The fact that he was initially brought in as a SF, dangled to the bench as a backup PF, then forced to start at C shows BC's self interest in Andrea and not the Raptors. It is crystal clear that Andrea is a PF that need's to be complimented by a defensive C and a scoring wing the same way Bosh does. But like you not so subliminally suggested you would rather it be Bosh as the odd man out. Not Surprised

As for your 'it doesn't matter who gets the stats' suggestion, that works when players are giving up individual stats and success for team benefit. In this case we need those players to put up individual stats relative to their position for team success


can i borrow your crystal ball one day?
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#48 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:20 pm

Live Free wrote:
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:long post


That's an oblivious excuse.

Let me put it this way.. the Raptors roster right now as is not a 2nd round team, period. We are doomed as a mediocre team. Andrea Bargnani as an individual player has made some strides and has undeniable talent, however it is painfully obvious that he's playing out of position. There is no doubt in my mind that he would not be playing the center position on any other team in the league, his biggest weaknesses are exactly what are needed as strengths for a center.

The fact that he was initially brought in as a SF, dangled to the bench as a backup PF, then forced to start at C shows BC's self interest in Andrea and not the Raptors. It is crystal clear that Andrea is a PF that need's to be complimented by a defensive C and a scoring wing the same way Bosh does. But like you not so subliminally suggested you would rather it be Bosh as the odd man out. Not Surprised

As for your 'it doesn't matter who gets the stats' suggestion, that works when players are giving up individual stats and success for team benefit. In this case we need those players to put up individual stats relative to their position for team success


Really, so because he didn't draft Roy or Rudy Gay, or trade the pick, he sold the team up the river for his own self interest, despite that fact that fast forward to today we have that player as a promising peice, committed to being here long term without requiring a mint to do it, which allows for another player to be maxed out, and plays in a manner that opens the floor to be spread so that CB can operate and does not tend to occupy the spots our franchise guy like to occupy, which most C's would.

BC does not acquire Europeans to suit his agenda. He acquires them because they want to be here, and if you want to get a guy who does not want to be here you tend to have to overpay.

Ever think that maybe BC just has better foresight than many of the people here?
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#49 » by barrist » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:22 pm

Question is,

Bargs' contract after close to mid season.

Bargain? Just right? Overpaid?
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#50 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:23 pm

barrist wrote:Question is,

Bargs' contract after close to mid season.

Bargain? Just right? Overpaid?


Bargainee
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#51 » by Anatomize » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:25 pm

He's a top 5 C in the east alongside Perkins, Lopez, Horford, and Dwight. He's arguably in the top 3, he's definitely worth the contract imo.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#52 » by Undefeated » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:26 pm

First of all, the comments about Bargnani never rebounding is old now. If you guys watch Bargnani closely on the defensive end, he does a great job of recovering and help box out. In fact, all Bargnani does is box out so who cares if he doesn't rebound. When we ask Bargnani just to stay in the paint, he boxes out while pulling down the rebound. Since the coaching staff asks him to help on the perimeter on a regular basis, he can't get good position to pull down the rebound while boxing out.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#53 » by Indeed » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:26 pm

I think initially BC drafted Bargnani and wants him to play as a big.
It is not the traditional man to man PF/C, but the Phoenix zone rotation of PF/C (so called big), where both PF and C will rotate to cover either opposing big.
If our big cannot guard their man, this will rely on double team, and quick recovery and rotation.

Which means out hustle and out rotate to cover more, instead of individually out defend their own.
So it doesn't really matter if he is a PF or C, same for Bosh. Use strategy instead of skill set to counter opponent.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#54 » by timdunkit » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:26 pm

barrist wrote:Question is,

Bargs' contract after close to mid season.

Bargain? Just right? Overpaid?


Kind of unfair to ask ... hes still on his rookie deal :p .
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#55 » by Live Free » Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:40 pm

theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Really, so because he didn't draft Roy or Rudy Gay, or trade the pick, he sold the team up the river for his own self interest, despite that fact that fast forward to today we have that player as a promising peice, committed to being here long term without requiring a mint to do it, which allows for another player to be maxed out, and plays in a manner that opens the floor to be spread so that CB can operate and does not tend to occupy the spots our franchise guy like to occupy, which most C's would.


c'mon now, commitment? space? that's all you got left? lol. Does Perkins occupy Garnett's space? does Bynum occupy Gasol's space, does Horford occupy J-Smiths space? are they all not committed to their teams?

Ever think that maybe BC just has better foresight than many of the people here?


Maybe, but his track record is rather disappointing. He took the job with the number 1 draft pick and capspace. Drafted Bargnani, signed Kapono to a 24 million dollar contract, traded TJ, Delfino, first round pick for JO. Had the Raptors go through a season with the worst perimeter production in the league, overpayed Calderon, traded JO's 23 mil expiring and a first round pick for Marion and Bank's terrible contract, prematurely extended Bargnani to a 10 mil contract, and overpayed Hedo to a 53 mil contract. Now the Raptors have one of the worst defensive teams of all time, 2 PF's, a point guard controversy, no flexibility, and Bosh's future in the air.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#56 » by ahson » Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:07 pm

man to man defense: average to above average
team defense: pretty bad
rebounding: below average
crash board: failed
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#57 » by dillio » Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:11 pm

His defense against Duncan and Howard these last two nights have really impressed me. He still has his share of faults, but you can't deny that he's added something to his game this season. Hopefully he keeps it up.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#58 » by LLJ » Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:15 pm

Andrea's not an ideal C, maybe never will be, but I do believe that may become his best position anyway because of his skillset, which he wouldn't do as well at PF or SF. His ability to shoot from outside and blow by his man gives him an advantage over the majority of Cs that he would not have over PFs.

He has no choice but to learn the C position the best that he can because otherwise he would be ordinary.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#59 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:20 pm

Live Free wrote:
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Really, so because he didn't draft Roy or Rudy Gay, or trade the pick, he sold the team up the river for his own self interest, despite that fact that fast forward to today we have that player as a promising peice, committed to being here long term without requiring a mint to do it, which allows for another player to be maxed out, and plays in a manner that opens the floor to be spread so that CB can operate and does not tend to occupy the spots our franchise guy like to occupy, which most C's would.


c'mon now, commitment? space? that's all you got left? lol. Does Perkins occupy Garnett's space? does Bynum occupy Gasol's space, does Horford occupy J-Smiths space? are they all not committed to their teams?

Ever think that maybe BC just has better foresight than many of the people here?


Maybe, but his track record is rather disappointing. He took the job with the number 1 draft pick and capspace. Drafted Bargnani, signed Kapono to a 24 million dollar contract, traded TJ, Delfino, first round pick for JO. Had the Raptors go through a season with the worst perimeter production in the league, overpayed Calderon, traded JO's 23 mil expiring and a first round pick for Marion and Bank's terrible contract, prematurely extended Bargnani to a 10 mil contract, and overpayed Hedo to a 53 mil contract. Now the Raptors have one of the worst defensive teams of all time, 2 PF's, a point guard controversy, no flexibility, and Bosh's future in the air.


These are facts are they? Just becasue you can find a few people on real gm who believe it, it does not make it a fact.

Lol, i'm not sure if you didn't understand what I meant in regards to commitment or what


Those other players are different players with different roles than the role CB has and has said he wants. The words I used came from CB. Regarding he and Dwight. We saw it with JO too. It's not that I'm saying no PF and C combo can be effective. It's just that our PF likes to have the paint cleared out for iso's and carries the bulk of our scoring duties.
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Re: Bargnani"s Defence 

Post#60 » by kingr » Thu Jan 7, 2010 4:27 pm

The last two games have been good, but I doubt it continues. We shall see.

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