Ronnie Brewer

[Pai Gow]

CJ hasn't shown me much that would indicate he's going to be a top or second tier player at any point in his career. He has plenty of time to develop and change that opinion, given how young he is like everyone's noted, but to date, how anyone could think he's a more promising long-term prospect than Brewer confounds me.

Obviously not a top player but he has CLEARLY shown that he is good enough to become a second tier player in this league. He's 21, already has a good sense of the game. His shot is looking better and better but its his play making ability that really shows to me that he can become a good player for us in the long run.

I just don't understand how any Jazz fan could be so low on both CJ and Brew, I can understand Almond but not these two. Sometimes you guys taking negativity to a whole new level.

[HammerDunk]

I actually like CJ a lot, I never said he doesn't have potential. I just think Brewer is definitely our man, and if CJ wants to be a backup forever, that is just fine with me. If the SG roster stays the same for the next 5 years, we will be in very good shape.

[JStockLivesOn]

-= original quote snipped =-



Obviously not a top player but he has CLEARLY shown that he is good enough to become a second tier player in this league. He's 21, already has a good sense of the game. His shot is looking better and better but its his play making ability that really shows to me that he can become a good player for us in the long run.

I just don't understand how any Jazz fan could be so low on both CJ and Brew, I can understand Almond but not these two. Sometimes you guys taking negativity to a whole new level.

But... but... how can a Matt Harpring apologist be too negative?

I will say, though, that troy actually presented a good argument in the post above. The Washington game had slipped my mind. I guess my considerations were more based on "feel" than a clear recollection of his performances. I feel like he comes in and is invisible, or takes and misses threes more often than cuts to the hoop or sets a screen. His 39% percentage would seem to indicate he's shot much better than I recalled, though.

[JStockLivesOn]

I think I've also held a grudge against him for skipping the Revue. I thought that was an idiotic decision, as I'm sure even his staunchest defenders would agree.

[OC Jazzfan]

Ahhh, who's going to be "the man".

IMO, Brewer is competent and somewhat exceptional in a few areas but is probably not going to give the Jazz much more than what we've seen.

Korver gives the Jazz exactly what he's supposed to as role player. Competence, not too many stupid mistakes or overplaying but with the added bonus of being able to hit the clutch shot 3 or otherwise when it's needed. Brewer doesn't seem to do this.

Miles has a lot of potential but also the greatest likelihood of falling prey to his own ego with help from his agent. e.g. not playing in the revue.

Almond? Who knows. How can anyone make a realistic prediction with no real NBA data to draw on. I suspect Jazz management are waiting for someone (Brewer or Miles) to draw enough interest as trade bait knowing that Korver is steady, Almond has potential and they'd still have one or the other left over.

FWIW, there's a lot of talent at this position which is much better than having none at all.

[erudite23]

Troy.....dude, wtf?

Most of what you said was just backing up my point. Ronnie has mental lapses that screw the team over. That is what I was saying. Physically, he has everything you need to be a great--not good--defender.

As for the list of great defenders that weren't good when they came in, I could go on for hours. Bowen was an offensive player in college. He didn't really come on as a true defensive ace until his late twenties.

Back in the day, Scottie Pippen had trouble getting consistent PT because of his mental lapses and inconsistencies on the defensive end.

Raja Bell wasn't a great defender, either. He had the right mindset, but that was because he didn't have elite physical tools and had he not come with the right attitude, he wouldn't have made a team at all.

Battier was a mediocre defender, and fashioned himself into one of the best 5 defensive players in the league, even though he was considered an offensive minded tweener that had no real position in the NBA. He did it from pure, straight hard work.

Larry Hughes, Kobe Bryant, Steve Christie, Paul Pierce.....I could go on all day with names of players who came in and were bad-to-below-average defensively who have all become good-to-great defenders at some point in their career.

You are right that its a mindset, and it stands to reason that developing that mindset would take time, no?

Most players who come into the NBA are college players who were the stars of their team, and thus used to taking plenty of shots and leading the team from an offensive perspective. Even players that were great defensive players in college take time to adjust. Very few come in and play good defense early on.

Corey Brewer is another great example of this. His defense right now is a little below average....but he had defensive stud written all over him for the future.

It just takes time. I, for one, believe that he will get there.

[troy]

You are right that its a mindset, and it stands to reason that developing that mindset would take time, no?

1/ Defense is about intensity , hunger , heart , will to cover the best offensive player. It's not something you get with experience , wether you have it or you don't.
If in your first years you're scared of defending a great offensive player , you will never be a great defensive player.

I will repeat the two examples i gave earlier. Ronnie Price and Paul Millsap. You can see those guys are not affraid of covering the best players out there.
Price is getting in people's face , playing every possessions like it's the last one.
Millsap is a junkyard dog.
In ten years they will still be good defensive players.

Brewer doesn't struck me with this kind of behaviour. I'm not sure he ever wants/looks for the challenge of defending a great offensive player , in practice or in a game. It's just not there.
Like i said before , he is a nice guy , he is not a tough competitor. Brewer never looks like the most motivated player on the floor , unlike Price , Millsap and Deron Williams.

Brewer doesn't have IT. He has not the profile of a defensive ace. In two years in the nba i have yet to see him body up his guy , or denying a great player from getting the ball. Not once !


2/ Regarding the age of the defenders.
- Kobe Bryant was a first team all nba defender at the age of 21.
- Larry Hugues is absolutely not an elite defender. Probably the worst 1st defensive team selection of all time.
- Raja Bell was a good defender as a rookie. Actually Larry Brown used him to defend on Kobe Bryant in the 2001 finals. Sorry.
- Battier was a good defender in college. You're off on that one. In the nba he has always been an above average defender.
- Bruce Bowen : you have not seen Bowen play in his early years , you can't say that he was a bad defensive player. The fact that he was a good offensive player in college and Europe doesn't mean he didn't defend well.
- Scottie Pippen : haven't see him in his early years , i'm pretty sure you haven't either. I know he was lacking strenght in his first years in the league but was he subpar defender ? I doubt that.
- Paul Pierce : How many games have you seen Pierce play his rookie year frankly ? I didn't saw him play personnally but i doubt he was a bad defender.


I'm far from convinced by your examples. To show that you really are not correct on the subject i can even name you some players that were BETTER defenders in their early years :
- Tracy Mcgrady. Compared to Scottie Pippen in his early years with more than a block per game. When he went to Orlando he had to take on the scoring load and started to forget about D.
- Joe Johnson : Very good in Phoenix. Not that good now.
- Boris Diaw : used as a defensive specialist in his rookie year in atlanta (had a good game vs James) . Now is considered a soft player.
- Michael Pietrus : had a vote for the nba defensive team in his first year despite playing only 750 minutes (he had a couple great defensive games vs Francis and Kobe ) . Since then his D has fallen in Nelson's system


Age is important , but it's clearly not the most important factor to determine the defensive potential of a guy. You can pick a soft 12 years old player. At 30 , he will still be soft !

As you get older , you have a little bit more experience but there's a lot of experienced player that are terrible defenders :p
Fact is older good defensive players have the advantage of the "defensive specialist reputation". Raja Bell has a reputation. Bowen too , etc..
They are respected by the refs.
Problem is with Brewer he will never have this kind of reputation , for the reasons i stated earlier.

Anyway , an interesting link about defensive play :
82games.com has finally made a ranking about the offensive fouls drawn.

http://82games.com/FSORT10.HTM

Brewer is only 7th on the team in offensive fouls drawn behind :
1-Deron
2-Collins
3-Korver
4-Harpring
5-Price
6-Millsap

In fouls drawn per minute he is also behind CJ Miles , Hart , Almond.

Only Kirilenko , Boozer , Fesenko and Okur are worst than him in this sector.
Boozer and Okur are terrible defensive players.
Kirilenko is not , but we all know he is not primarily known for his man to man defense.


Erudite23 , if you're so sure Brewer will become a very good defensive player , why are you probably as scared as me of his matchup with Kobe in the next round ?
Just admit it , he doesn't have the profile of a defensive player.

[HammerDunk]

Hey Troy, how would you feel about ANYONE guarding Kobe? I, for one, don't feel like anyone in the league can really guard him. And if you think CJ would be any better than Ronnie, well then you know something I don't. Kobe will get his points, I'm more concerned with odom/gasol and perimeter defense.

[troy]

Hey Troy, how would you feel about ANYONE guarding Kobe?

There are a lot of guys i would love to match up with Kobe defensively like Battier , Prince , Ginobili , posey , bowen , bell, Butler , Iguodala , underrated defender Maggette or even less players like Francisco Garcia of the Kings.
I know they would not be scared by the challenge.

I don't think Brewer is scared , but i can tell you he doesn't want the challenge of defending Kobe.

Anyway Kobe is not unstoppable. He has only scored 40pts 6 times in 133 playoffs games.

As for Brewer , i'm not saying CJ Miles would do a better job than him this year, obviously Brewer has more playing time experience at this point. But three-years from now , give me Miles anytime.
Almost as athletic as Brewer , he has way more skills (outside shoot and can score in any way possible) and doesn't have mental lapses defensively like Ronnie B.

For the last time , Brewer is a good player. Starting him at SG won't cost us a championship (Okur at center will though , give us Bogut or Kaman) .
I just think CJ Miles is a better prospect , and there is several other young SG that i would love to have in place of Brewer because they are better defenders and better outside shooters and have more of a role player / warrior idendity which Brewer lacks in my opinion.
But Brewer is fine , i agree with you all on that one.

[ColdBlue]

CJ's defensive warrior heart echo's off of the mountains as he fouls his man who has already begun to cleanly lay the ball off the backboard.

His warrior spirit soars across the court just a couple steps behind his man streaking to the basket for a fast break bucket.

His defensive warrior spirit has been clear to see since he entered this league. It isn't learned. It's an inherent birthmark on CJ's back. We all saw it his rookie year.

Brew's broken defensive will is a shattered and broken shell that will never be fixed or improved upon. The oracle of warrior spirit has said as much. Trade him!

[Illuminati]

Ronnie Brewer can be a superstar. Agreed? :$

[ColdBlue]

I heard Brew took 11th as MIP.

I guess troy was right, and Brew SUCKS!!!11!

[Ming Kong!]

Give Brewer some time. He's a sophmore and improved big time. 11th for MIP is a big indicator of the direction he's going. Patience children.

[carrottop12]

I actually think CJ's ability to be a playmaker makes him far more valuable then either Korver or Brewer for the future of the Jazz.

Even though Deron is one of the best playmakers in the league, neither Brewer or Korver can breakdown a defense and get to the rim.

CJ however has shown an ability to take people off the dribble, and create his own shot.

The Jazz are going to need a player like that if they ever want to be a real contender. Having only one guy who can make shots for himself starting from the perimeter won't cut it. That's why having guys like Ginobili and Parker are so valuable to a team.

[BiggMann]

You guys are being VERY critical of a 2nd year player. This is his first season in utah's starting line up and has done a fantastic job. Far better than Fisher did last year IMO, plus he's coming in about 4 mil cheaper per year.

CJ, Ronnie and Morris are all great prospects, all of them can continue to contribute, it's just up to Jerry to figure out who and when. I really dont see us trading any of those young guys, unless a package deal brings in an elite talent. And I highly doubt AK+(CJ, Brew or Morris) would bring that elite talent in. WHEN we trade AK this offseason i'm guess it's for expiring contracts and future picks. Considering we have enough talent behind AK to continue to be effective. CJ is good enough to start at the 3, and when CJ and Brew are on the court at the same time along with DWill, Booze and Memo we are a fast athletic team that can keep up with anyone.

[dingojazz]

Brewer Rules. Nuff said