Season opener: Jazz @ Nuggets

[kebutah]

Deron's A/T is 2.99
Stock's was 3.72-stats are from basketball reference.com

There is an almost one assist difference between the two. Deron's numbers should improve as he matures and his teammates improve.

[erudite23]

Assist to TO is close to worthless. Stockton was the best assist guy, and imo the best passer, in the history of the NBA. What I'm talking about is TO ratio. The number of turnovers in proportion to the number of possessions used by the player. Deron's has hovered between 16.5 and 17.7 for the last three years. Stockton's was 20.8 for his career and his career best mark of 17.6 is identical to Deron's career worst mark of two years ago.

Turnovers happen when a player attempts to make a play. Most often they happen when a player is attempting to generate a high percentage look for himself or for another player. Deron looks to generate shots more for himself than Stockton did, so naturally his A/TO ratio will not be as good. But he also gets 3-4 more shots a game (at nearly as good a conversion as Stockton) and 1-2 more FTs per game than John did. Overall, between the 11ish assists per game and the 19 or 20 ppg, he generates close to as much offense as Stockton did, while turning the ball over less.


Sure, he could stand to cut his TO rate. But it's really just a small quibble than a major issue. People just like to bitch.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

So we should just accept poor defense from the team because in reality its just a small quibble? Or poor rebounding? TO's? Lack of blocked shots? Excessive weak fouls? Lazy outlet passes?

Sorry but we don't accept mediocracy here in Utah. We actually want to compete for a championship.

[erudite23]

Also, does anyone realize that Deron's TOV% is significantly lower than John Stockton's? Anyone? Anyone? Some people are just so dumb it blows my mind. Yeah, I'd like to see Deron cut his down in the same vicinity of Chris Paul, but his TO rate is already well within the acceptable range. What the hell is the matter with people that they just don't get it.

You call 5 TO's acceptable? Deron even came out and apologized saying he made too many stupid turnovers.

And as far as my supposed stupidest RealGM post ever about D-Will...

Is it really so horrible of me to question what he worked on during the offseason? He was criticized for his conditioning his rookie year was he not? Or to even question his ability to lead this team since Fisher left when they have continued to drop in the playoff picture each year since his departure? Sure he can put up great numbers but obviously something isn't working and if you want to be the team leader and be credited for teams success than you also get the credit for your teams failures. So far Williams has yet to prove that he can lead this team to the promise land without someone else here to take some of the leadership burden off of his shoulders. Just look at Denver and what happened with them and Melo. Melo was unable to produce any success until Billups showed up.

I think everyone should be questioning him honestly, you give him a free pass since he is the best player on the team but there comes a point where you have to wonder if his leadership and control of the team will ever match his ability. You are being naive and ignorant if you don't question him in the slightest after failing to improve.

Williams is the team, he gets my approval and praise when they win and I am going to question and criticize him when they don't.

Failing to improve? Have you lost your damned mind? He has steadily improved every year in the league. He's barely entering his second contract.

Your problem is that you've been conditioned by the media who use a inherently flawed paradigm with which to judge players. Deron Williams is a young player who is coming into what should be an all time great career. Team's fail because they don't have the proper amount and mixture of talents from the WHOLE TEAM. The problem is that there are certain intangible elements of sports that are completely and utterly impossible to quantify or to assign value or credit to. This team appears to lack a certain mental edge. Sure. Is that Deron's fault? How the hell do you know? I know when I see Deron Williams play he seems to play with the proper amount of determination and grit, and if his teammates don't take the lead from him, I would think that is their fault and not his.

The Bulls teams of the mid and late 80s were clearly not tough enough mentally and failed in every big stage opportunity they had. It took years of gradual improvement and tinkering with the roster, until the time came when they were definitely one of the toughest, meanest, most determined and resilient teams in the history of the NBA. So...was MJ a POS leader early in his career, but then he magically became a good one? Was he a born loser like everyone said? Or is this all just a bunch of bull **** that the media feeds you because they need something to talk about?

The Jazz need a few more peices in order to compete at the highest level. They lack elements on the team that are a necessity to winning at the upper levels. That means getting new players or having current player develop those abilities. Very, VERY rarely is it ever about all these stupid intangible things that people talk about. Most of the time its just not being good enough on a given night.

Deron is the best player on this team. That doesn't mean that the shortcomings of the roster are somehow his responsibility. He's done everything he could to improve his game. The dude is about to have an amazing season. You can tell he's added moves, most notably a bank shot from the angles both pulling up and going to the hoop, and a floater in the lane.

Anyone who thinks he's fat is out of the minds. The dude is in great shape, and has a unique body type that is very thick through the chest and arms especially, but still highly agile, mobile and explosive. Making fun of his physique is the best way to destroy any semblance of credibility you might ever hope to have. He is a superbly conditioned athlete. You are an idiot if you think otherwise.

[erudite23]

So we should just accept poor defense from the team because in reality its just a small quibble? Or poor rebounding? TO's? Lack of blocked shots? Excessive weak fouls? Lazy outlet passes?

Sorry but we don't accept mediocracy here in Utah. We actually want to compete for a championship.

Who the hell are you to set the standard of championship ball for this team? There are 30 NBA teams. Do the math. The chances of any team winning the chip are very small. If you go around doing nothing but turning your nose up at your team unless they win it all, you will be a miserable, morose and depressed fan and human being.

As they say, its about the journey, not the destination. Enjoying NBA basketball is about enjoying the small steps, the daily victories that come when you beat another NBA team, or when your young players take a small step forward, or when players develop a key bit of chemistry that will allow them to have more success. That's being a fan. You can walk around and talk about your wonderful, uppity high standards all you want, but all you're doing is proving you don't understand what its about. My dad has been a Jazz fan since the day they moved to SLC, and we haven't won a single championship. Does that mean he's wasted his time? All has been for naught? Hell no, its been a great 25 year run here, and the reality is that in the world of NBA fandom, being a Jazz fan is among the upper crust of all franchise experiences.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

Wow you are really questioning my love for basketball and the Jazz? Seriously? I was willing to deal with your **** up until now. Not only are you accusing me of only not loving the game of basketball or the Utah Jazz but you are accusing me being a depressed individual/fan.

It is not unreasonable for me or anyone else to expect this team to compete for a championship when we have such a talented team as this. If you are not expecting this team or this organization to try and compete for a championship than you should go find yourself a new team to cheer for because the Jazz organization is not here to take our money while accepting mediocre performances from their players. What are we now, the 2nd highest paying team in the NBA despite being in a small market? We set high standards and we actually want/try to achieve them unlike many of the pathetic organizations in the NBA. Is that really so wrong? Are the Jazz just throwing away their money because in the end winning doesn't matter as long as you are having fun? Just like D-Will said "Winning is fun".

Who do you think you are? What makes you think you can question my love for the game of basketball? I can promise you that I love basketball just as much, if not more than everyone on these forums/website/universe. You don't even know who I am yet you insult me and my passion for the game? Honestly I want to know who you think you are, I am really curious to know what makes you think that you are so special that you can actually accuse me of not loving the game of basketball.

This is where I would usually go on my rant of personal attacks but I'm going to choose not to since you obviously are not worth anymore of my time and don't deserve the satisfaction of seeing me get blacklisted.

[el loco]

The Nuggets will gladly take DWill and the Knicks first for AC and filler. AC didn't turn the ball over once last night and had 5 assists in less than half the Minutes that DWill played. I think this would be a good trade for the Jazz that would set them back for years.

DWill took 15 shots last night and scored 28 points off of those shots, that's some pretty efficient scoring, he had 13 dimes and probably would have had around 20 if Boozer's shots were falling. Melo had a nice game but he took 22 shots to get 30, which isn't nearly as efficient. The Jazz had 3 players with a positive +/- for the game, DWill, AK47, and Fesenko (I thought Fes looked good in the brief action he did play in). Blaming DWill for a loss on the road in a tough environment when your team is missing main parts of its rotation is comical imo.

[Soul Patch]

I wonder who has the bigger weiner, Echo or Erudite.

Our second unit at the start of the fourth couldn't do anything offensively or defensively, we got into a funk that took too long to get out of. Our starters were lethargic in the fourth. Sounds like we had a depleted bench due to injuries to me.

[OC Jazzfan]

I wonder who has the bigger weiner, Echo or Erudite.

LOL!

I'm a big fan of the "if you don't think what I think then you're an idiot/you're ignorant/you're ugly" discussion style! Give me more!

It's only one game but for me the disheartening thing is that this game could've been plucked directly out of last season. But that should come as no surprise considering we have virtually the same roster as last season.

[seejaydeja]

I wonder who has the bigger weiner, Echo or Erudite.

Our second unit at the start of the fourth couldn't do anything offensively or defensively, we got into a funk that took too long to get out of. Our starters were lethargic in the fourth. Sounds like we had a depleted bench due to injuries to me.

this

Look at our bench the only proven competent players last night were Price and Sap. Fes, Kouf, Maynor, and Mathews are all either rookies or still young and unproven to be able to play a competent role as a good bench player. Factor in that our go to offensive guy had one of his worst performances in recent memory, we were doomed. Take it with a grain of salt and move on to the next one. We still got 81 left

[The Sheik]

Brook Lopez had 27 15 and 5. I would give up anything and everything, aside from Dwill, to get him on this team.

No kidding, it's insane that kid dropped at all in the draft. 7'0, NBA body, good shooter, good defender, smart player, polished post moves.

That's NBA gold and he fell to 10. How are DJ Augustin and Joe Alexander working out for you losers.

The Jazz would never be that pro-active. In complete honesty I probably would have given up the 2010 pick for Brook Lopez. All they do is reactive moves. Lose top 3 pick, move up to get D-Will. Look at how Pritchard organized that team. He isnt scared to buy 2nd round picks and trade away future picks for players.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

You can't say that you knew Brook Lopez was going to be such a solid player. Back when he was drafted his brother was considered to be more valuable and look what he has managed to do down in Phoenix. Brook developed into something more than anyone could have hoped for. Yes he would have been a good fit here in Utah regardless of if he developed the way he has in NJ just because of his size but I think it is unfair to try and blame the Jazz organization for not making moves to pick up rookies in the draft. Rooks are hit and miss and with the Jazz organization not being able to afford taking very many high risk/high reward type moves I don't blame them.

[erudite23]

Wow you are really questioning my love for basketball and the Jazz? Seriously? I was willing to deal with your **** up until now. Not only are you accusing me of only not loving the game of basketball or the Utah Jazz but you are accusing me being a depressed individual/fan.

It is not unreasonable for me or anyone else to expect this team to compete for a championship when we have such a talented team as this. If you are not expecting this team or this organization to try and compete for a championship than you should go find yourself a new team to cheer for because the Jazz organization is not here to take our money while accepting mediocre performances from their players. What are we now, the 2nd highest paying team in the NBA despite being in a small market? We set high standards and we actually want/try to achieve them unlike many of the pathetic organizations in the NBA. Is that really so wrong? Are the Jazz just throwing away their money because in the end winning doesn't matter as long as you are having fun? Just like D-Will said "Winning is fun".

Who do you think you are? What makes you think you can question my love for the game of basketball? I can promise you that I love basketball just as much, if not more than everyone on these forums/website/universe. You don't even know who I am yet you insult me and my passion for the game? Honestly I want to know who you think you are, I am really curious to know what makes you think that you are so special that you can actually accuse me of not loving the game of basketball.

This is where I would usually go on my rant of personal attacks but I'm going to choose not to since you obviously are not worth anymore of my time and don't deserve the satisfaction of seeing me get blacklisted.

It has nothing to do with your passion for the game. It has to do with the complete and utter lack of realism apparent in your approach to being a fan. In today's sports landscape, the food chain is looooong. 30 teams means 29 losers a year. Demanding championships, no matter who you are, is ridiculous.

And what's funny to me is you say we have championship worthy talent, but you rip our players up one side and down another about being peices of ****. Make up your mind.

Never said you don't care about the game or that you love this team any less than anyone. Just that your approach is stupid and ridiculous, given the realities of being a fan in the NBA.