Everyone Unhappy!

[hoops4life]

I am happy. A new Buffalo Wild Wings was announced to be built in Lehi early 2012. A the NBA season is starting soon.

[Soul Patch]

With that said, I have no idea why Billups would sign here.

How good of relationship do burks and he actually have? It could be our lead in. But at the sametime billups and harris are both starting point guards. I personally prefer harris

I didn't know they had a relationship. I like Harris and I think he'll have a hell of a season but if we had Billups I wouldn't mind seeing him traded for help at the 2 or 3 spot.

[3thehardway]

Charles Barkley, who else?? I'd take any GM that makes the necessary moves to win a championship. I think KOC is restricted somewhat by the Miller family in the sense that he doesn't have the budget some other GM's have which isn't his fault. But since the Jazz are hardly ever big time players in free agency, KOC has to make the most out of the moves he makes. Would you say signing Tinsley is doing that? Or Bell last year to "replace" Matthews? Keeping Fesenko and Koufos on the roster but not keeping Korver or Brewer? I'm not asking for perfect, I'm just asking for moves that make sense.

[3thehardway]

And just in case my sarcasm failed (highly possible), I WOULD NOT let Charles Barkley manage anything important to me. Looking back on it, I should've said Chuck Norris....

[Paper Face]

But since the Jazz are hardly ever big time players in free agency, KOC has to make the most out of the moves he makes. Would you say signing Tinsley is doing that? Or Bell last year to "replace" Matthews? Keeping Fesenko and Koufos on the roster but not keeping Korver or Brewer? I'm not asking for perfect, I'm just asking for moves that make sense.

Your example regarding Fess/Kouf vs. Korver/Brewer is nonsensical. It wasn't an either/or situation between these players as you suggest. The former two were had on the cheap, while the latter were not worth signing long term. Brewer is a known bench player who can't shoot. What the Jazz lost with him is easily replaceable. Korver's talents were rendered redundant by the drafting of Hayward, so he wasn't worth resigning. If Deron actually had an inkling of the quality we call LEADERSHIP he would have shown a little patience and submitted to Sloan's coaching. His patience would have been pleasantly rewarded as both Hayward and Big Al came on strong by year's end.

Who would you have signed as a 3rd PG instead of Tinsley? As with Brewer, the Jazz have already been down the road a few times with Price and his limitations. There is little risk at all in signing Tinsley to a small contract as an 11th man.

Bell was signed after losing Matthews. Again... who would you have signed instead after choosing to not match on Wes?

Matthews is a tough loss, but that loss doesn't negate the good things KOC has done. Neither does losing Mo Williams or Erik Maynor. It was a mistake to let the market set the price on Matthews, but no one really expected Portland to offer what they did. But these are just things that happen to GMs. Players are lost to teams that have more money, and sometimes they flourish. It's a painful reality of the league ecology that we are talking about.

All of these moves were precipitated by the signing of Andrei Kirilenko to his max contract. If you think this was KOC's fault, then you didn't read the press concerning the matter. KOC was the one who was reluctant to do the signing, but LHM loved AK (along with the entirety of the fan base at the time) and pressed for the signing. So if you want to blame someone, blame Miller.

It sounds like your real complaint is that the Jazz don't have Paul Allen-type money to throw around. Perhaps you should re-think cheering for a small market team.

In truth, the Jazz is one of the best run franchises in the league. KOC is a huge part of that. He's an asset to the team. I defy anyone to name a small market GM that has reloaded a roster with talent as quickly and successfully as O'Connor has (he's done it twice) in the past decade.

[3thehardway]

I'm saying that Fes and Koufos just wasted space on the roster, whereas I think Korver and Brewer provided some quality on the court. Even if they weren't worth keeping for an extended period, they were players Dwill had chemistry with which helps keep our allstar in SLC. How exactly did Dwill not show patience? He is a competitive player that wants to win so he gets frustrated when guys mess up plays, big deal. Kobe gets pissed off when guys don't run the right play as well, are you going to criticize his leadership? If Dwill really ran out of patience he would've demanded a trade like Melo did during the season.

I would've pursued PG's that actually played in the NBA last season. Again, KOC doesn't get a huge budget to work with so why waste space with Tinsley? You're actually going to say that the Tinsley signing isn't a waste of time and that KOC did something productive for the Jazz? Same with Raja Bell. How KOC even imagined Bell would be a decent pick up in place of Matthews completely bewilders me.

I never blamed KOC for AK's insane contract, just for making some horrible decisions. And I'll go on the record stating that if he trades Millsap this season, depending on who the Jazz get back, it'll be another wasted move. And KOC wouldn't have needed to reload the Jazz roster with talent the second time if he didn't screw up the talent in place from the first time.

[Paper Face]

I'm saying that Fes and Koufos just wasted space on the roster, whereas I think Korver and Brewer provided some quality on the court.

What you're really saying is that keeping Fes/Kouf had something to do with not signing Korver and Brewer. Which is why I used the term "nonsensical".

Even if they weren't worth keeping for an extended period, they were players Dwill had chemistry with which helps keep our allstar in SLC.

You don't keep Korver when you have Hayward. It's redundant. The flip side of the path you suggest is that if D-Will decides to leave, then you are stuck with two Korvers. KOC made the right decision.

How exactly did Dwill not show patience?

He refused to run the plays. Why do you think that he had a problem with Sloan? He basically torpedoed his future with the franchise by defying the coach and undermining the whole team by that sedition. These, in fact, are the actions of an individual who wants out. By trade or free agency. He got his wish.

The Jazz saw the writing on the wall. KOC removed the Jazz from facing the situation that Denver & Cleveland faced, and that New Orleans and Orlando now face. He's one of the best GMs in the league.

He is a competitive player that wants to win so he gets frustrated when guys mess up plays, big deal. Kobe gets pissed off when guys don't run the right play as well, are you going to criticize his leadership?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Kobe could be up to 7 or 8 championships by now. His war with Shaq wasted the prime of his career, and now he's attempting to make up for all of that lost promise. He was the greatest talent in the league since MJ, but his leadership skills during his career have been atrocious.

Being "competitive" and "wanting to win" are not enough to qualify anyone as a good leader. Sorry.

If Dwill really ran out of patience he would've demanded a trade like Melo did during the season.

If you assume that his actions communicated anything other than wanting to get traded, then you're just blinded by his talent and his PR.

I would've pursued PG's that actually played in the NBA last season.

Come up with a name of a player, and we'll go from there. Until then, you don't have a leg to stand on regarding signing a third-string PG.

You're actually going to say that the Tinsley signing isn't a waste of time and that KOC did something productive for the Jazz?

We can't know until the season is played. Apparently KOC paid attention to Tinsley while he was in the D-League, and made a call. Who are you to criticize without a single NBA minute being played? Did you watch Tinsley's D-league action? I'm guessing you didn't.

Same with Raja Bell. How KOC even imagined Bell would be a decent pick up in place of Matthews completely bewilders me.

That's the easiest thing in the world to say in hindsight. Bell was coming off of injury, but there was no proof that he was finished as a player. If you have a link to some comment you made at the time regarding how bad Bell was going to perform, then I guess I'll give you props on your armchair GM abilities.

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that Bell would adequately replace Wes (except you, apparently). It was just a signing to shore up the wing rotation and fill a spot.

I never blamed KOC for AK's insane contract, just for making some horrible decisions.

All of his personnel decisions have to be viewed in light of the fact that he was hampered by AK's contract. I.e., they must be understood in light of financial considerations and not just based on talent. Overall, I think KOC has done a great job. I'm still waiting for you or anyone to highlight a small market GM that has done a superior job.

And I'll go on the record stating that if he trades Millsap this season, depending on who the Jazz get back, it'll be another wasted move. And KOC wouldn't have needed to reload the Jazz roster with talent the second time if he didn't screw up the talent in place from the first time.

Fine. Go on record. It doesn't change the fact that Deron screwed it up by not showing faith in his coach and his franchise. He could have waited out AK's contract. His actions essentially say that he didn't have any faith that Utah could attract the free agents he wanted to play with. Now he's going to get exactly what he wanted.

[3thehardway]

Yet Deron never demanded a trade, though I admit he would've finished out the season and left undoubtedly. The Jazz saw the writing on the wall because KOC caused it. Deron would've stayed if KOC made personnel decisions that kept the Jazz competitive instead of making them worse.

As for PG's let's see, how about pursuing TJ Ford, Anthony Carter, Carlos Arroyo, or even Mike Bibby. My actual preference would've been to keep Sundiata Gaines when we had him over Price. And of course I didn't watch D-league games, why would I waste my time? If Tinsley was some young rookie coming out of the D-league then maybe I don't criticize KOC, but he isn't. If he somehow proves productive this year then I'll stop complaining about KOC and apologize for this debate, but somehow I don't see that happening.

In hindsight? I hated the pick up when it was announced, especially since I knew that Bell was being brought in to start where Matthews was supposed to be. Bell should only be coming off the bench anymore, not starting. I can't provide any links since I just recently joined but I think you can tell by my criticism of the Tinsley signing that I'm not a fan of bringing in over the top players.

Deron didn't have a reason to show faith in KOC, because he has been making dumb decisions. Do you think The Jazz are in a position to do anything in the Western Conference this season? Dallas got better by adding Odom to replace Chandler in my opinion, OKC is still better than the Jazz, the Clippers just got considerably better by adding Paul, the Lakers got worse and would still beat the Jazz in a playoff series. And the Jazz got better by....adding Tinsley?

[erudite23]

Still dont know why you have new thread priveleges. Tinsley hasn't even been signed yet.

That was awesome.

[Getjazz]

WOW!!! Anyone who is pissed because the Jazz haven't made enough moves is crazy! They only have got back a healthy MEMO, drafted two solid rooks in Kanter and Burks, got a more in shape Al Jefferson, CJ, and Hayward. Not to mention the growth of Favors and Millsap over the summer. Don't underestimate the signing of Watson as well. But yeah they didn't do anything to get better over the last yr...
If your looking for a Championship team this yr then become a Miami fan. If you want to watch a very talented group of young guys mixed with some solid vets, grow and hope for a great draft pick then stick around. Because your stress level will be lower...

[Paper Face]

Deron would've stayed if KOC made personnel decisions that kept the Jazz competitive instead of making them worse.

According to who? I think you're just making this stuff up as you go. You have no idea what Deron would have done. The contract he signed indicated the opposite of what you claim.

As for PG's let's see, how about pursuing TJ Ford, Anthony Carter, Carlos Arroyo, or even Mike Bibby.

The first three wouldn't be any better than Tinsley. Bibby wouldn't come as cheap as Tinsley. What else you got?

My actual preference would've been to keep Sundiata Gaines when we had him over Price. And of course I didn't watch D-league games, why would I waste my time?

If Tinsley is still half the player he was, he'll be better than Gaines. If you had a job as a GM I guarantee that you'd be watching D-league film. Hence the difference between your armchair and KOC's paycheck.

I can't provide any links since I just recently joined but I think you can tell by my criticism of the Tinsley signing that I'm not a fan of bringing in over the top players.

I think you mean "over the hill". The truth is that if you fill out roster with just young players you're going to have to put up with a lot of growing pains. If that's how you roll, that's fine. But getting experienced players on the cheap is more efficient. There are old players that can still fulfill roles on every team.

Deron didn't have a reason to show faith in KOC, because he has been making dumb decisions. Do you think The Jazz are in a position to do anything in the Western Conference this season?

Nonsense. Deron had millions of reasons to show faith in the Jazz. They're the ones who first showed faith in him by choosing him over Paul. A key lesson in any aspect of life and/or business is that relation is reciprocity. If you fail to grasp this one lesson, then you fail in life no matter what you "win" on the surface.

He could have signed a longer deal his second go round. He didn't because he wanted an out. The second he structured his contract that way was the second the Jazz knew he was going to opt out. And KOC? He was handcuffed by AK's contract. He was going to make money-saving moves around that contract to keep the Jazz profitable because that's what you have to do to survive in a small market.

Dallas got better by adding Odom to replace Chandler in my opinion, OKC is still better than the Jazz, the Clippers just got considerably better by adding Paul, the Lakers got worse and would still beat the Jazz in a playoff series. And the Jazz got better by....adding Tinsley?

Wow. You're talking about the Jazz, right? You really think this team should be making moves that will help them compete with contenders? You're more out of touch than I had originally assumed.

The Jazz need to develop right now. They don't even have a legitimate leader or star player. They barely have an identity after the events of last season.