KOC as Utah Jazz General Manager

[reapaman]

Bat, I am dead serious when I say that and I mean no offense. That had to be one of the most delusional, homerish, revisitionist, and insane post I’ve seen.

1) First of all Kahn even said himself that Al Jefferson trade was a pure salary dump (not in so many words but it was talked about in the media like crazy). He was gonna do it no matter what and the heavily protected pick + Koufous were just extra. KOC gave up more than he had to because after the summer madness, no team that actually wanted Al could afford to take him but the Jazz.

2) Why would a fan care about saving the owner 15 million dollars. He never did nothing with it to improve this team, so why does that matter? Bottom line is you gave up a pg who would’ve been a nice ball manager for us which we desperately need now. Shouldv’e traded CJ if your gonna do that. Shoot why was he extended in the first place, he was trash then and trash now.

3) I almost didn’t comment on the wing thing because there was a reason a Hamilton, iggy, red, granger ect.. trade proposals would pop up every day. Not to mention it was national news that we were towards the top in most season on points given to opposing wings (particularly sg’s), and yes were were almost knicks status a couple years. Not like they were lighting it up on the offensive end either. And did you actually mention Matthews when we only had him for one season, his rookie season at that. Sad …..

4) And did you just suggest that creating cap space is something that should be praised, LOL!!!! Your are reaching hard. Creating cap space while building a well balanced team is a skill ala the Pacers who could still sign a star pg this offseason with a little luck. And Should we ignore that KOC actually over paid for both guys because he was bidding versus himself. The 2nd best contract both guys were offered was mid-level money yet, they both got paid twice that … great job KOC (and the media killed him for it, look it up). And who cares where they rank among jazz all time and that they were “good” players? Bottom line is that front court was destroyed by the top teams and both of them would not show up in high pressure moments. Nothing else matters. The idea is to win a championship and we weren’t going no where with those two starting together with major minutes.

5) I have no faith in GS and didn’t have any faith in them this year especially with their injury prone players and d-leagers. GS pick is still top 7 protected which is high enough for them. Plus our pick is #12 protected and if we don't make any major changes, then could go to the playoffs again. Hence why I said there is a good chance and I didn't say it was a certainty.

6) We have no legit pg, crap 3 point shooting, horrible defensive players especially the wings, ect… yes holes everywhere. And you said the right word “IF” they pan out. Kanter and Favors shooting numbers were abysmal this season. And I know you guys love optimism and I always look at history. Never in the history of the NBA besides Andrew bynum has anyone been that horrible shooting in their rookie seasons while getting little defensive attention and were able to became a good offensive player. Bynum is one of a kind so far and it took forever, Kareem, and lots of money until he started showing it. How in the world were these two under 50% FG with all those open looks is beyond me. Meanwhile Hayward’s numbers overall look very Mike Millerish and this is while taking less 3’s, being used less and receiving less defensive attention (so expect his FG% to drop more next year). Plus despite what some say, he is a bad defender. There is a reason he’s towards the bottom in the league in defensive rating and worse than Mike Miller was at this point. Burks is a complete toss up, which I never like. So in other words I’m not excited as you are. Plus Playoff experience means nothing unless your current players get better through practice (practice makes perfect and games are to show what you learned in practice) and you also get better players. Ask Memphis and Atlanta who haven’t lived up to their potential despite having “playoff” experience.

7) As for the guys leaving, I am looking at history when I say that they are likely gone or will leave for nothing. How many times in history has it happened that you get something good for a expiring contract without give up some else of somewhat equal value? Never, at least to my knowledge and I dought that will suddenly change now. Plus like I said earlier, the goal is to win a championship and not be mediocre. None of these guys are worth the money they are gonna command, too many major deal breaking weaknesses. So why resign them, everyone here complained about all those guys for a reason.

[gojazzgo]

Just look at Jazz first rounders, and tell me how many of them are still in the NBA, and I think you'll have a pretty good idea of how solid KOC is in the draft.

Enes Kanter - Who knows, but looks good going forward - Too Early to say
Alex Burks - Who knows, but looks good going forward - Too Early to say
Gordon Hayward - Above average player - Agree and has helped so far
Eric Maynor - Solid rotation player - Didn't really do anything for us. Traded for some cap room
Kosta Koufos - Average rotation player - Looked mediocre, did hardly anything while here, part of a trade for a player the TWolves were dumping.
Morris Almond - Borderline NBA player - Did basically nothing for the Jazz
Ronnie Brewer - Solid rotation player - Agree, Solid overall.
Deron Williams - Superstar - Agree here
Kris Humphries - Above Average Starter - Did close to nothing for the Jazz, never really worked here, now putting up some decent numbers on a terrible team.
Kirk Snyder - Jail - Well, not much else to say about this guy
Sasha Pavlovic - Journeyman, borderline rotation player - Didn't do much for us, 4.8ppg in 1 season.
Curtis Borchardt - Never made it, Injuries - Basically worthless

So in the last 10 years, we've had 12 picks, 3 never made it, one because he was crazy, one because he couldn't stay healthy, and only one because he didn't have the talent. That's a 75% success rate, which is pretty phenomenal considering our picks have generally been in the teens.

That's an extremely friendly way of looking at it. Why don't we consider what each one actually did for the Jazz. I've added my opinions in red above. I wouldn't call that a 75% success rate when quite a few of those guys never did more than barely contribute off the bench.

[carrottop12]

1. If you think Al Jefferson could have been had for a second round pick, that's fine, but IMO Al Jefferson so far has been more than worth a mid first round pick and Kosta Koufos. What he has given us is worth more than a back up center and a flyer in the middle of the first round.

2. I care that the owner of the team saves money because I care about the team staying in Utah. No backup PG is worth 15 million, and having that extra money allows us to spend it elsewhere when it becomes more prudent. Maybe you don't realize it, but other small franchises like Sacramento and NOH are in danger of leaving their cities right now becuse of poor financial management by the owners and GM's. I like having the Jazz in SLC, so saving money in situations like that is a no brainer.

3. If you don't like the wings KOC brought in, that's fine, but Brewer was a good pick up at 9, Matthews was great as an undrafted guy, and Korver was exactly what we needed in exchange for Giricek.

4. Yes, having cap space is a valuable asset, as good as having a draft pick. Being able to take on salaries that other teams can't afford is valuable. It is starting to seem pretty clear that you don't have a very well developed understanding of all the intricacies a GM's job.

5. Regardless of what GS does, why is our top 12 protected? Where is it going? Maybe you're right but I can't think of what deal we'd lose our pick in.

6. Kanter and Favors both shot 50% this season, what do you mean abysmal? Look at Jermaine O'Neal and Kevin Love, both shot on the mid 40's as rookies and were very good offensive players, Love might be the best offensive big in the league. Don't give me this history crap when clearly your view of history is short sighted at best. Those two were the first guys I picked out of the blue, I am sure I could come up with a dozen more examples if I cared to look.

7. If the guys leave, so be it, with the new CBA, the more cap space we have the better. There will be players being sold for pennies on the dollar when the new tax penalties kick in, and I think we'll be in a position to grab some of them.

[carrottop12]

Despite all this, the team does well (mostly taking advantage of the lockout situation) and instead of making moves to improve our weaknesses before the trade deadline, they do nothing. So we get into the playoffs and get slaughtered by the Spurs.

It's starting to look like the Spurs are just slaughtering everyone. Still need to see what they are going to do in LA, but from what I've seen so far the Clippers, who were the 5th seed, and won a first round series, were no better than the Jazz team we had to end the season.

[Spottieottie]

No reapaman you are wrong. Our pick would have been top 12 protected next year had we not made the playoffs and given it to Minnesota. But since we did, we no longer owe any picks after this draft.

Under-rated pro making the playoffs this year aspect. It would have gone to unprotected in 2 years also. Now we don't have to worry

[Spottieottie]

For the record I'm not going to say every move KOC had made has been a good one but I'll definitely take him over 50% of the GMs out there.

[carrottop12]

Just look at Jazz first rounders, and tell me how many of them are still in the NBA, and I think you'll have a pretty good idea of how solid KOC is in the draft.

Enes Kanter - Who knows, but looks good going forward - Too Early to say
Alex Burks - Who knows, but looks good going forward - Too Early to say
Gordon Hayward - Above average player - Agree and has helped so far
Eric Maynor - Solid rotation player - Didn't really do anything for us. Traded for some cap room
Kosta Koufos - Average rotation player - Looked mediocre, did hardly anything while here, part of a trade for a player the TWolves were dumping.
Morris Almond - Borderline NBA player - Did basically nothing for the Jazz
Ronnie Brewer - Solid rotation player - Agree, Solid overall.
Deron Williams - Superstar - Agree here
Kris Humphries - Above Average Starter - Did close to nothing for the Jazz, never really worked here, now putting up some decent numbers on a terrible team.
Kirk Snyder - Jail - Well, not much else to say about this guy
Sasha Pavlovic - Journeyman, borderline rotation player - Didn't do much for us, 4.8ppg in 1 season.
Curtis Borchardt - Never made it, Injuries - Basically worthless

So in the last 10 years, we've had 12 picks, 3 never made it, one because he was crazy, one because he couldn't stay healthy, and only one because he didn't have the talent. That's a 75% success rate, which is pretty phenomenal considering our picks have generally been in the teens.

That's an extremely friendly way of looking at it. Why don't we consider what each one actually did for the Jazz. I've added my opinions in red above. I wouldn't call that a 75% success rate when quite a few of those guys never did more than barely contribute off the bench.

My argument here was to show that O'Connor is good at picking guys up in the draft who are legit NBA players. Regardless of how long they were on the team, because in most of those situations, we either kept them, or moved them for equal or greater value.

There are cases like Borchardt and Snyder that were clearly busts. Pavlovic was left open in the expansion draft, which should have been Borchardt, but as we can see, Pavlovic was no huge loss either. Otherwise in his last 9 picks, all but 1 have been an NBA player.

Humphries was moved for nothing, that was a bad move, but otherwise I really can't complain about what happened with our first rounders.

I don't really think it's fair to grade a GM based solely on what his draft picks did strictly while they were on the team, look at any GM and you'll see that usually their draft picks are moved along for other pieces.

Look at RC Buford, this is the list of guys he drafted for the Spurs since he took over in '02.

Luis Scola*
John Salmons*
Randy Holcomb
Leandro Barbosa*
Beno Udrih*
Ian Mahinmi*
Damir Markota
Giorgos Printezis
Marcus Williams
Tiago Splitter*
James Gist
George Hill*
Nando De Colo
Jack McClinton
Dejuan Blair*
Ryan Richards
James Anderson
Adam Hanga
Cory Joseph

The guys with asterisks are the guys who he has drafted that are worth a damn, 5 of the 8 aren't on the team any more, and they happen to be Scola, Salmons, Barbosa, Udrih and Mahinmi. Does that mean Burford is a bad GM because he moved guys who are legit rotation players, or that he's excellent at spotting talent? In all actuality he never got back equal value for those guys, certainly much less than KOC got for our picks, does that make KOC a better GM?

The draft is just a crap shoot through and through, and being a GM is anything but a science, so if you can consistently find talent that can make it, and either keep them around, or move them for more pieces, I think you are way ahead of the game.

[StocktonShorts]

He also essentially drafted Kawhi Leonard in the same way KOC drafted Borchardt.

[reapaman]

To bat:
I don't wanna go back and forth too much because thats just lame but I wanna touch upon a couple things.

I understand that the Jazz can't spend too much money which is fine and all but if thats the case then make a move that matters. You can't keep dumping salary and not getting anything out of it unless your a sure fire contender which the Jazz weren't. Not saying maynore as off limits but finding legit pg (and not sg's posing as a pg) are hard to find and you should at least getting something decent back for him other than just salray. He should have traded Okur, Boozer, Ak, CJ or Millsap because you can stand to lose one or even two of them and they will get you talent in return that you need while finding a way to take back less salary. Thats all I want from KOC is to realize our weakness and at least show that he's willing to take risk for us to be a legit contender. He can still do this and stay under budget with the right moves. Its just really difficult to compete for a championship without taking at least one risky move and he just refuses to do it.

As for Kanter and Favors, oviously I wasn't talking about overall FG%. I meant from different points of the court like percentages from close range, medium, long range (not including 3 pointers) and include the shot attempts they took from those ranges. That coupled with looking at other advanced statistics such as o-rating and looking at their usage and judging how much defensive attention they got. Look at hoop data, 82 games, basketball reference, ect... lots of good sources if you have the time. I did make a quick mention of their overall FG% percentages because I was making the point that they should be much higher based on how they played. They were in much different situations than Kevin love was in.

And yea I was wrong on the pick thing but still doesn't make me feel any better about it since its not in this draft..

[carrottop12]

As far as the Jazz conservatism on the trade front and on the FA market, I'm excited to see KOC have his first summer this year not spent under the tutelage of Jerry Sloan. I liked Jerry, but there is no doubt that his philosophy was time together, gradual improvements, no risky big moves.

A week after he was gone we traded a superstar, in the first draft with out him we basically drafted a high school big based purely on potential, then drafted an athletic scoring wing, and in the 2 weeks of free agency we signed two guys who were deemed "bad apples" by the rest of the league. All un-Sloan like moves.

While even though I didn't mind KOC's work during the Sloan era, I have been far more impressed with his willingness to take risks since Sloan has been gone, my guess is that continues.

[carrottop12]

And Reapaman, worrying about where they are scoring from doesn't mean much, both Favors and Kanter will score from thier most efficient spots going forward. If you look at efg% and ts% both our young bigs have Love beat at a similar age. No reason to think they won't be good offensive players.

[reapaman]

Tyson Chandler and De-andre jordan (among others) efg% and ts% were also higher than Love at a similar age yet their scoring now is nothing like his. Believe it are not I do research before I express my opinions even though some think I just blantly throw things out. Hard to be a good scorer just dunking and put backs, even blake griffins rookie number who get critized for only dunking far eclispes Favors numbers.

Its defintly possible they can be good scorers but I just look at players in the past with similar numbers and they didn't become good scorers. Actually Bynum's sophmore numbers are way better than Favors (Bynums rookie numbers are not listed). We shall see tho, nothings written in stone.

[Deinonychus]

Its defintly possible they can be good scorers but I just look at players in the past with similar numbers and they didn't become good scorers. Actually Bynum's sophmore numbers are way better than Favors (Bynums rookie numbers are not listed). We shall see tho, nothings written in stone.

1. Bynum's sophomore numbers aren't way better, they are comparable. And here are their sophomore playoff stats (represents both the end of the year, and playing when it counts):

Favors
PPG: 11.8 RPG: 9.5 APG: 0.5 SPG: 1.2 BPG: 1.5 FG: 41% FT: 59% PER: 18.8

Bynum
PPG: 4.0 RPG: 4.6 APG: 0.0 SPG: 0.0 BPG: 0.4 FG: 53% FT%: 40% PER: 16.9

Oh, well that's because Bynum had good players taking minutes from him even though he was ready to step in - you know, like Kwame Brown and Brian Cook. Favors only got minutes in the playoffs because he had crappy players like Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap ahead of him.

2. Yes his rookie numbers are listed on basketball-reference.

Note: I am not saying Favors is a lock to be a better player than Bynum, but hopefully it shows how ridiculous it is to go off early stats and decide that you know how that player will probably turn out. If you looked at Bynum and Favor's playoff stats in a vacuum, you would see a lot more evidence that Favors would turn out to be a better player.

[Jazzfan12]

And Reapaman, worrying about where they are scoring from doesn't mean much, both Favors and Kanter will score from thier most efficient spots going forward. If you look at efg% and ts% both our young bigs have Love beat at a similar age. No reason to think they won't be good offensive players.

Favors shot under 30% on shots that weren't layups or dunks this season, there is obviously some concern to be had.

[Deinonychus]

@ Jazzfan12 and reapaman - I agree that there is some concern there, but I think the bad shooting percentages were largely a result of using both Kanter and Favors in the wrong way. It seemed to me like we ran the exact same offense with them as we did with Jefferson and Millsap. So we would throw the ball into Favors and Kanter down low and expect them to score on their own the same way Jefferson does. There's no doubt that they would have benefited from getting the ball in different situations, such as pick-and-rolls or moving towards the basket (esp. Favors). As much as I like Big Al as a person, I think this is another reason we would benefit from him leaving, it will free up our offense quite a bit.

[carrottop12]

Have the opinions of the board changed with these recent moves. I still think we are seeing a completely different KOC than we saw with Jerry, IMO a more capable team builder.

What do you think if KOC post Jerry?

[Deinonychus]

I'm with you Bat - I've always regarded KOC as one of the better GM's, but I really think we're seeing a bit more of what he's capable of these past couple years.

[russnumber3]

Have the opinions of the board changed with these recent moves. I still think we are seeing a completely different KOC than we saw with Jerry, IMO a more capable team builder.

What do you think if KOC post Jerry?

Definitely a different GM post-Sloan. No way we bring back Mo Williams if Sloan was coaching, although I think Marvin fits the type of player Sloan liked.

I missed this thread the first time around, and I found it quite interesting. I agree with parts of both Reapaman and Bat's arguments, and I'm interested to hear what Reapaman has to say about these moves. They don't seem like the type of risks he would like to see us make to put us into championship contention, but I think they are solid moves.

[red4hf]

Have the opinions of the board changed with these recent moves. I still think we are seeing a completely different KOC than we saw with Jerry, IMO a more capable team builder.

What do you think if KOC post Jerry?

I think the Jazz have a lot more flexibility with trades now that Jerry is gone...... Some of the trades/actions that have been done lately might not have taken place with Jerry at the helm......