2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#61 » by KqWIN » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:50 pm

Big issues with our offense: 27th in turnovers and 29th in offensive rebounding. Teams are getting about 7 more scoring opportunities per game than us...which is a lot. That's starting almost 4 points behind.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#62 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:06 pm

An article about Oni.

Miye Oni — A Rare Breed

Matt John has a chat with Utah Jazz rookie Miye Oni about being the only Ivy League player currently in the NBA, the importance of education and adjusting to a new city.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/miye-oni-a-rare-breed/
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#63 » by Crunch 99 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Zach Lowe criticizes Conley and Mitchell for taking all the mid range shots and floaters in his "Ten Things I Like and Don't Like" column:

2. Utah Getting A Little Pull-Up-Y
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28117649/ten-nba-things-like-including-electric-ja-morant
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#64 » by Tom349 » Sun Dec 1, 2019 4:53 am

A lot of negativity about the Jazz to begin the season much like the previous two seasons really. My question is how much of the Jazz have we actually seen? Or are we holding back and trying to perfect certain parts of the playbook before using the rest of the playbook. I say this as we seem to be more or less running the same plays over and over and plays that we have used in the past haven't yet been explored with this playing group which in theory should be pulling it off than previous teams. Could our early struggles be a result of holding back a little as well as having one of the harder schedules to start the season.

On a completely different note I think questions need to be asked of Quin and his use of our younger guys and that lack of faith he shows in them. Now it could be as simple as our young guys not having what it takes but I look at Toronto and every season someone new seems to come onto the scene, whereas we don't give our guys the minutes to show what they have to offer. The past two seasons our end of bench guys were more older veterans so that makes sense but this season we have a number of guys who could do with some development and I would like Quin to at the very least try them out (not all at once). I mean you just have to look at Dante last night and question Quin coaching when it comes to development, was probably the only bright spot in the first half and doesn't play a single minute in the second half.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#65 » by KqWIN » Sun Dec 1, 2019 4:23 pm

I don't think holding back parts of the playbook is something that you do in basketball, not nearly to the extent that you do in football at least. It's much more of a flow. Conley and Mitchell aren't playing within the offense. Our offense is very PnR based, but their opportunities aren't coming within the flow. More often than not, we run some action, they wave it off and go into PnR with Gobert and fail miserably because neither player makes reads. They go into PnR's with their mind made up, whether that's having no intent to pass or tunneling in on passing to Gobert.

The first thing that needs to happen is Conley+Mitchell have to start reading the defense instead of these predetermined decisions. This is what manifests into hero ball where they are taking turns finding their shots, mostly bricked floaters. Remember the blender? We don't have the blender this year because those two almost never kick it out to the perimeter. This is a problem with all of our ball handlers. Ingles, Mudiay, Conley, Mitchell...everyone is guilty. The only passes those guys are making are one's that lead directly to shots. If it's not for an assist they chuck. There's no popping the ball around the perimeter for better shots or advantages.

I can talk about the little things for days, but we also have to acknowledge that it's very difficult to have a good offense when you are so bad at turning the ball over (25th) and offensive rebounding (29th). The average team is getting 5 more shots per game than us. That means our starting point, before getting to shooting, is already about 5 points worse than league average. You have to be an incredible shooting team to make up that difference.

Turnovers have also been a problem with Quin's teams. We move the ball, which means you're going to turn it over a lot too. But this year we're not moving the ball. Our turnovers come from forced passes into Gobert/Bradley/Davis. We're definitely not winning the tradeoff of more turnovers for better shots.

Offensive rebounding is something Quin has neglected for most of his tenure. IMO, this is one of his biggest missteps. It was more egregious when he didn't let Favors+Gobert rebound...but it's still a big issue now that we're small. We can't be bottom 3. As an organization, the Jazz need to show that they are not all talk (DL said this is something we would improve at) and attack the glass. I also think Conley and Mitchell should be attacking the hoop more. When the Jazz give up offensive rebounds, it's because Gobert contests and is then out of position for the rebound. On these terrible floaters, the defender is in position to rebound. Going to the hoop will make the defender contest and put him in worst position to rebound.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#66 » by Rauxcee » Sun Dec 1, 2019 11:17 pm

Tom349 wrote:
On a completely different note I think questions need to be asked of Quin and his use of our younger guys and that lack of faith he shows in them. Now it could be as simple as our young guys not having what it takes but I look at Toronto and every season someone new seems to come onto the scene, whereas we don't give our guys the minutes to show what they have to offer. The past two seasons our end of bench guys were more older veterans so that makes sense but this season we have a number of guys who could do with some development and I would like Quin to at the very least try them out (not all at once). I mean you just have to look at Dante last night and question Quin coaching when it comes to development, was probably the only bright spot in the first half and doesn't play a single minute in the second half.


What young guys are you talking about? Mitchell and Royce are third years and they are starters. I guess Bradley could be playing back up C minutes if Davis is out instead of Green, but he has some major areas of improvement. Mudiay is the same age as Mitchell and he's getting a fair amount of playtime. Exum is on very clear minutes restriction. They are trying to save him for the playoffs and I don't expect him to see a lot of time before the break- and he'll be slowly, very slowly, given playtime.

Unless you are talking about our super late second round draft picks? They have no business playing unless it's garbage time.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#67 » by Tom349 » Mon Dec 2, 2019 5:41 am

Rauxcee wrote:
Tom349 wrote:
On a completely different note I think questions need to be asked of Quin and his use of our younger guys and that lack of faith he shows in them. Now it could be as simple as our young guys not having what it takes but I look at Toronto and every season someone new seems to come onto the scene, whereas we don't give our guys the minutes to show what they have to offer. The past two seasons our end of bench guys were more older veterans so that makes sense but this season we have a number of guys who could do with some development and I would like Quin to at the very least try them out (not all at once). I mean you just have to look at Dante last night and question Quin coaching when it comes to development, was probably the only bright spot in the first half and doesn't play a single minute in the second half.


What young guys are you talking about? Mitchell and Royce are third years and they are starters. I guess Bradley could be playing back up C minutes if Davis is out instead of Green, but he has some major areas of improvement. Mudiay is the same age as Mitchell and he's getting a fair amount of playtime. Exum is on very clear minutes restriction. They are trying to save him for the playoffs and I don't expect him to see a lot of time before the break- and he'll be slowly, very slowly, given playtime.

Unless you are talking about our super late second round draft picks? They have no business playing unless it's garbage time.


Of course I am talking about these guys as well as Dante who isn't on a minutes restriction but rather our coach would prefer to play Mudiay over him. Where these guys went is irrelevant, their either got the potential to be NBA players or they don't. They could potentially make an impact this season if given the opportunity but that won't happen because our coach is too much of a coward. The only way of unearthing a player is by giving them an opportunity, but we continue to let guys develop away off the court and never give them a decent shot at establishing themselves and then hold onto to them for too long as we don't know whether they are or aren't good enough i.e. Niang. Im not saying play them big minutes and play them all at once but rotate them through and see if one of them can make an impact off the bench.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#68 » by Inigo Montoya » Tue Dec 3, 2019 12:01 pm

ESPN article about the Jazz's recent woes:

The Utah Jazz need a regroup after a lopsided road trip

"It's not a matter of making shots or not making shots. That's not the issues for me, especially early on," said Conley, who is following up a career-high 21.1 points per game last season by averaging only 13.9 points per game this season. "It's being comfortable and knowing when to be aggressive, and how I can be effective with the lineup that we have.

"I'm so used to having the ball in my hands, so it's an adjustment."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28215004/the-utah-jazz-need-regroup-lopsided-road-trip
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#69 » by Crunch 99 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:45 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:ESPN article about the Jazz's recent woes:

The Utah Jazz need a regroup after a lopsided road trip

"It's not a matter of making shots or not making shots. That's not the issues for me, especially early on," said Conley, who is following up a career-high 21.1 points per game last season by averaging only 13.9 points per game this season. "It's being comfortable and knowing when to be aggressive, and how I can be effective with the lineup that we have.

"I'm so used to having the ball in my hands, so it's an adjustment."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28215004/the-utah-jazz-need-regroup-lopsided-road-trip


Conley's 20 plus ppg average last season in Memphis needed to be discounted somewhat because it happened on a lottery bound team.

Harpring often talks about how difficult and impressive it is for any NBA player to break the 20 ppg average barrier. I think Harpring needs to add a qualifier to that statement and say it is extremely difficult and impressive for any NBA player to average 20 plus ppg on a winning, playoff bound team. I think averaging 20 plus ppg on a winning team is different than averaging 20 plus ppg on a losing team. Teams don't care when other teams have a player averaging 20 plus ppg in mostly losing efforts.

A good example of a not overly impressive, 20 plus ppg player was Shareef Abdur-Rahim. He averaged 20 plus ppg for four seasons with the Vancouver Grizzlies, but they never won more than 23 games in a season. Then he averaged 20 plus in Atlanta for two seasons (actually 19.9 his second season) while Atlanta was winning just 33 and 35 games respectively.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#70 » by babyjax13 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:56 am

If Conley doesn't start clicking I am on the Paul train.

Conley/Exum
for
Paul/Nader/2020 DEN 1st

Salaries are basically a wash. We upgrade our point guard position, and get a first for taking on Paul's last year.

Another trade I'd like to see happen:

Exum (or, let's say Green/Goss) + 2nd(s)
for
Wayne Ellington

We are missing a shooter with gravity coming off of screens from the bench. Ellington could open things up for us a bit.

I also want Jeff Green gone. I was skeptical about that signing but pretty okay with it just because it was cheap. He's been abysmal.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#71 » by babyjax13 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 7:57 pm

I wonder if Philly would trade Tobias Harris + salary for Conley + Ingles... I'd cry losing Ingles, but Harris is at least the perfect third fiddle on offense.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#72 » by babyjax13 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 8:44 pm

A less aggressive strategy than trading Conley that still might right the ship:

Trade 1:
Georges Niang, Nigel Williams-Goss, 2nd for Wayne Ellington

Trade 2:
Dante Exum, 3 2nds, cash for Thaddeus Young [or Jeff Green + cash + 3 2nds for Jabari Parker]

That gets us two quality rotation players (currently having down years on inept teams) for three that don't and/or should not play. If we think Dante is finally going to be ready to contribute, maybe we try moving Jeff Green in a trade for a different power forward, but Young is such a perfect fit (maybe Atlanta will want to move Parker for some value, Jeff Green+ 3 2nds+cash...no one will have Parker's bird rights, so that's probably as good an offer as they will get).

Leaves us with a rotation of:
Gobert 34/Davis 14/Bradley
Bogey 12/Young 26/Green 10
Ingles 22/Bogey 18/O'neale 8
Donovan 18/Ellington 18/O'neale 12
Conley 32/Mitchell 16/Mudiay

I think that bench is a lot better at minimal cost, and it synergizes really well with Mitchell. We can also stagger minutes so that Joe is on the court with either Gobert or Young so he always has a PnR threat, and this would give Conley more pick and pop opportunities along with lobs to Rudy.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#73 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu Dec 5, 2019 6:20 pm

Random thought of the day:

I never thought the Toronto Raptors would win a championship before the Jazz. And I sure as hell never thought the freakin' Clippers would win one before the Jazz did, but they just might. :banghead:
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#74 » by jazzfanWA » Thu Dec 5, 2019 7:08 pm

'we just have to continue to fight' - Jeff Green

When have they done that?
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#75 » by jazzfanWA » Thu Dec 5, 2019 7:10 pm

I would much rather watch an up and coming team struggle with a promising future than this team that is going nowhere with no future.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#76 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu Dec 5, 2019 7:56 pm

jazzfanWA wrote:I would much rather watch an up and coming team struggle with a promising future than this team that is going nowhere with no future.

Agreed. I get that players like Gobert and Mitchell are what teams tank for but this team has reached its ceiling with this current core (which is essentially Gobert and Mitchell). The timeline doesn't work anymore. The team has no avenues for further improvement significant enough to break it out of the 1st-2nd round range, and certainly not enough to make it a contender. It is capped out for the next 2-3 years and then will be capped again with Gobert's supermax, DM's max, 33-34 year old Bojan, and perhaps Royce's new contract. Do we really want to see this franchise continue to ride this core for the next 5-7 years if that's all it can do? We are also asset-depleted outside of Gobert, DM and maybe Bojan.

I know nobody wants to hear this but if we prefer an up and coming team over this stagnation, then it's time to blow it up and build around DM. At least with him we'd still have 5 or so more years to build a good team around him. Get a haul for Gobert and maybe something nice for Bojan. Start over now and not 7 years from now.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#77 » by babyjax13 » Fri Dec 6, 2019 6:28 pm

Honestly it's clear that the bench is the main problem (and sacrificing assets for someone that didn't end up being an upgrade - at least so far). I think we are being a bit hard on Conley because he isn't who we expected, and maybe he won't ever be, but he's still an averageish starter with a bit of upside if he figures it out.

We just need some scoring and BALL MOVEMENT off our bench, and to cut out the floaters. The problems on the bench - to me - are Green, Mudiay, and Davis. Green and Mudiay are really inefficient offensive players that don't keep the ball moving all that well, and Davis just doesn't give anything on offense. That means Ingles has to effectively be the offense in the second unit, and that's just not playing to his strengths. We also really don't have a backup shooting guard that can shoot (Oni, I don't think, is ready). So, I think that means we need to replace at least one, if not two of Green, Mudiay, and Davis in the rotation, and add a real backup shooting guard. That should be doable with our assets.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#78 » by Goober » Sat Dec 7, 2019 2:07 pm

Wayne Ellington should be an easy get and can add decent gravity to the bench unit
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#79 » by babyjax13 » Sun Dec 8, 2019 7:46 am

Goober wrote:Wayne Ellington should be an easy get and can add decent gravity to the bench unit


I can't wait for us to make some moves to improve this bench - it's so awful. I don't think it takes much in terms of asset outlay for Utah to go from a team that looks like a 6 seed to one that looks like a 3 seed. I think if the move from Rubio/Favors to Conley/Bojan makes us get HCA in the first round, then it was a worthwhile move. A competent bench can always be built midseason - we did it last season.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#80 » by Inigo Montoya » Sun Dec 8, 2019 11:08 am

babyjax13 wrote:I think if the move from Rubio/Favors to Conley/Bojan makes us get HCA in the first round, then it was a worthwhile move. A competent bench can always be built midseason - we did it last season.


I strongly disagree. Home court advantage in the first round is not worth throwing away next 5-7 years for (which is what that trade did), especially since the this team managed to overcome not having HCA in the first round both vs the Clippers and Thunder in the past 3 seasons. What matters is how far this team gets and this is what these offseason moves will and should be judged by. If we get no further than previous seasons, then the moves the front office made had no impact at all and are a complete failure. They could use that extra one home game in the playoffs to pay for Conley's salary, though.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.

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