Thoughts on the Season + What's Next

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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#41 » by GobertReport » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:20 pm

100proof wrote:What would Utah look to get in a trade for Gobert.

I personally feel that the Celtics would be a perfect fit for Rudy and turn the team into the defensive equivalent of the offense the GSW created.


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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#42 » by stitches » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:22 pm

If we actually had any maneuverability and optionality(DL™) I'd be worried that this development with the Nuggets run will convince the FO that all we need is healthy Bojan for a deep run and contention... Alas... we don't have that problem right now... so one way or another we are bound to bring back about the same team. :dontknow:
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#43 » by stitches » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:33 pm

reapaman wrote:1) Try to Resign Mitchell at all cost, don't play with him.
2) Resign Jordan Clarkson even if its an overpay.
3) Draft BPA with 1st round pick (screw need and fit, go with BPA) and keep the player.
4) Wait out the free agent market. Don't sign old guys. Prioritize guys who can play wing and can shoot the three. You can work out your forward positions as the season goes on.
5) I didn't mention Gobert, Conley and Ingles because DL pretty much made his bed with them, Its too late to do anything worthwhile with them. The other guys on the team don't matter.

To a huge degree I agree with 1, 3, 4 and 5. Especially agree with the "don't sign old guys" one. I want us to take some chances on young-ish 3 and D wings with size. I'm not that tied to Jordan Clarkson though... if the deal is good, I'd keep him. I wouldn't want for us to overpay for him.

100proof wrote:What would Utah look to get in a trade for Gobert.

I personally feel that the Celtics would be a perfect fit for Rudy and turn the team into the defensive equivalent of the offense the GSW created.


GobertReport wrote:
100proof wrote:What would Utah look to get in a trade for Gobert.

I personally feel that the Celtics would be a perfect fit for Rudy and turn the team into the defensive equivalent of the offense the GSW created.


Jaylen Brown


Yep, pretty much this. If the Jazz are not rebuilding... (and they will not be with Mitchell, Conley, Ingles, Bogdanovic under contract), even if they decide to trade Gobert(which I doubt), they will probably be looking at pieces that can fit well with Mitchell's timeline... which is ... RIGHT NOW. Boston once had a huge warchest of assets, but nowadays they don't really have much of anything to entice a team like the Jazz with. The 14th pick and picks in the 25-30 range in this useless of a draft are almost worthless to a team that wants to compete now. So that leaves some of the current starters for Boston and the one that probably makes most sense is indeed Brown.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#44 » by reapaman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:10 pm

stitches wrote:
reapaman wrote:1) Try to Resign Mitchell at all cost, don't play with him.
2) Resign Jordan Clarkson even if its an overpay.
3) Draft BPA with 1st round pick (screw need and fit, go with BPA) and keep the player.
4) Wait out the free agent market. Don't sign old guys. Prioritize guys who can play wing and can shoot the three. You can work out your forward positions as the season goes on.
5) I didn't mention Gobert, Conley and Ingles because DL pretty much made his bed with them, Its too late to do anything worthwhile with them. The other guys on the team don't matter.

To a huge degree I agree with 1, 3, 4 and 5. Especially agree with the "don't sign old guys" one. I want us to take some chances on young-ish 3 and D wings with size. I'm not that tied to Jordan Clarkson though... if the deal is good, I'd keep him. I wouldn't want for us to overpay for him.

I would agree with you in normal circumstances, but you have to remember that the salary cap is gonna take a huge dive the next few season due to the coronavirus and even new contracts don't always adjust properly to accommodate teams. Unless your gonna let both Gobert and Conley walk for nothing then the timing of their contracts (along with ingles having an extra year and Mitchell getting the max) screws us, because Mitchell and whatever Gobert gets (or we him trade for) could easily put us over the cap for a while (not to mention keeping or replacing conley). I doubt you find a player better than Clarkson with the MLE. I've been a Jazz fan for too long, I know how these situations usually work out.

GobertReport wrote:
100proof wrote:What would Utah look to get in a trade for Gobert.

I personally feel that the Celtics would be a perfect fit for Rudy and turn the team into the defensive equivalent of the offense the GSW created.


Jaylen Brown

The Jazz might want Brown, but the best they'll get is Marcus Smart, a 1st rounder and filler ... unless they want to try to make salaries work for Hayward which would be stupid. Gobert can't be one of your top 3 offensive guys if you want to go deep in the playoffs so their not giving Brown up for him. Plus Brown younger and way more valuable today since he's a wing. Not to mention gobert is on a expiring contract and Brown has 4 more years on his deal.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#45 » by 100proof » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:13 pm

when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#46 » by reapaman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:36 pm

100proof wrote:when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.

Three point shooting and perimeter defense are the teams biggest needs imo.

I would let center work itself out in the draft or whatever we have left in free agency. Teams always can randomly find an athletic big to patrol the middle, get some rebounds and maybe block a shot or 2. I would want a wing for Gobert, most importantly one that can spread the floor for Mitchell.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#47 » by stitches » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:43 pm

100proof wrote:when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.

The answer is still - a Jaylen Brown. Lol... that's the type we need most. I have no idea why you think any team can have Gobert for anything less than a Smart or a Brown... and especially Smart? Like... wut? You want 2 time DPOY, 3 time consecutive first team all-D, Western conference all star, and 3 consecutive times all-NBA player and you don't want to give up a Marcus Smart for that? Yeah... that's not going to happen. What did you want to give up for Gobert? no. 30 and Haywood? LOL Thanks but no thanks...

If we traded Gobert... a center might indeed be in the return package. I've pondered some packages including Myles Turner or Jarret Allen, but I don't think that's a requirement. I'd be good with giving our MLE to someone like Derrick Favors to come back and start for us if we lost Gobert.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#48 » by vryadli » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 pm

OK, all that posts on this thread convinced me that Jazz has to trade Gobert the sooner the better. For what? I don't think it is important at all. For the next 5-7 years spent in the bottom of the league it will hardly matter. Utah will enjoy trades and spectacular DM offense as mach as Lakers did Kobe-years after Shaq trade.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#49 » by KqWIN » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:02 pm

reapaman wrote:
stitches wrote:
reapaman wrote:1) Try to Resign Mitchell at all cost, don't play with him.
2) Resign Jordan Clarkson even if its an overpay.
3) Draft BPA with 1st round pick (screw need and fit, go with BPA) and keep the player.
4) Wait out the free agent market. Don't sign old guys. Prioritize guys who can play wing and can shoot the three. You can work out your forward positions as the season goes on.
5) I didn't mention Gobert, Conley and Ingles because DL pretty much made his bed with them, Its too late to do anything worthwhile with them. The other guys on the team don't matter.

To a huge degree I agree with 1, 3, 4 and 5. Especially agree with the "don't sign old guys" one. I want us to take some chances on young-ish 3 and D wings with size. I'm not that tied to Jordan Clarkson though... if the deal is good, I'd keep him. I wouldn't want for us to overpay for him.

I would agree with you in normal circumstances, but you have to remember that the salary cap is gonna take a huge dive the next few season due to the coronavirus and even new contracts don't always adjust properly to accommodate teams. Unless your gonna let both Gobert and Conley walk for nothing then the timing of their contracts (along with ingles having an extra year and Mitchell getting the max) screws us, because Mitchell and whatever Gobert gets (or we him trade for) could easily put us over the cap for a while (not to mention keeping or replacing conley). I doubt you find a player better than Clarkson with the MLE. I've been a Jazz fan for too long, I know how these situations usually work out.



Given the situation with Mitchell's and Gobert's future pay raises I think you have to throw the idea of cap space out the window. We won't be able to operate that way anymore. Once you're an over the cap team, they key is keeping your cap number high...or as high as ownership will allow it (I'm very skeptical the Jazz will be willing to pay tax).

I agree that we have to keep Clarkson. If we lose him, then we don't get to replace him with cap space. Theoretically you could use the MLE to find another player...but it's just better practice to keep Clarkson and use the MLE elsewhere. Same kind of philosophy with Conley in the future. Letting him walk doesn't help us from a team building standpoint. We will not have cap space, so replacing him comes down to using exceptions like MLE or a minimum. It makes more sense to resign him using bird rights. All letting him walk does is give the franchise financial relief...but that is not the same thing as building the best team possible.

I don't think we should move Gobert, simply because we are going to get peanuts in return. If we move him for established players, those players are definitely going to be as valuable as Gobert and we'll just have a worse version of the same team. If we trade for picks/developing players, we're just going to stink until Mitchell demands out in a trade.

I also think that a lot of the issues we associate with Gobert...we should actually be associating with Quin. I think Quin needs to be much better and more versatile as a coach. If there is an aspect of the Jazz being built for the regular season, I see that more as a Quin issue and less of a Gobert issue.

There's just not a lot of maneuverability here. The reality is that the FO already took their shot and missed badly. One player they could move on from in a trade is Conley. There are lots of options there because his expiring contract does have value. But I don't think the FO will admit failure that soon. I can't see a Conley trade happening especially because he had a few good games in the bubble. Realistically we should move Conley or Bogey for a more defensive/psychical wing but the FO will not look to make that kind of move.

If it were my team and I didn't care about future tax concerns, I'd be looking to a younger/not old wings like Aaron Gordon and Otto Porter through trade. I think there's some good trade potential with Orlando especially. With the MLE target young physical wings. Maybe a Derrick Jones Jr. type.

Idk...the Jazz are going to have to hit a home run somehow, but that's pretty much how every good team is good. That's why the Jazz are a good team. Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles, and O'Neale were all great finds and the weren't obvious moves.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#50 » by 100proof » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:04 pm

stitches wrote:
100proof wrote:when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.

The answer is still - a Jaylen Brown. Lol... that's the type we need most. I have no idea why you think any team can have Gobert for anything less than a Smart or a Brown... and especially Smart? Like... wut? You want 2 time DPOY, 3 time consecutive first team all-D, Western conference all star, and 3 consecutive times all-NBA player and you don't want to give up a Marcus Smart for that? Yeah... that's not going to happen. What did you want to give up for Gobert? no. 30 and Haywood? LOL Thanks but no thanks...

If we traded Gobert... a center might indeed be in the return package. I've pondered some packages including Myles Turner or Jarret Allen, but I don't think that's a requirement. I'd be good with giving our MLE to someone like Derrick Favors to come back and start for us if we lost Gobert.


A player like MArcus Smart I would trade, cannot see Danny Ainge ever trading Marcus though. he is the celtics.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#51 » by GobertReport » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:23 pm

100proof wrote:
stitches wrote:
100proof wrote:when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.

The answer is still - a Jaylen Brown. Lol... that's the type we need most. I have no idea why you think any team can have Gobert for anything less than a Smart or a Brown... and especially Smart? Like... wut? You want 2 time DPOY, 3 time consecutive first team all-D, Western conference all star, and 3 consecutive times all-NBA player and you don't want to give up a Marcus Smart for that? Yeah... that's not going to happen. What did you want to give up for Gobert? no. 30 and Haywood? LOL Thanks but no thanks...

If we traded Gobert... a center might indeed be in the return package. I've pondered some packages including Myles Turner or Jarret Allen, but I don't think that's a requirement. I'd be good with giving our MLE to someone like Derrick Favors to come back and start for us if we lost Gobert.


A player like MArcus Smart I would trade, cannot see Danny Ainge ever trading Marcus though. he is the celtics.


The only player we want is in fact Jaylen Brown so if the Celtics don’t want to give up the goods for a superstar we can go else where.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#52 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:00 pm

I bet we could get Hayward back... 8-)
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#53 » by stitches » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:14 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:I bet we could get Hayward back... 8-)

I mean... anyone can have Hayward if they want him. Hell I'd even be OK taking him back after his contract expires for something like the MLE to be our next Joe Ingles-type...
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#54 » by stitches » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:15 pm

100proof wrote:A player like MArcus Smart I would trade, cannot see Danny Ainge ever trading Marcus though. he is the celtics.

I see... so what's going to be the offer then?
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#55 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:26 pm

vryadli wrote:OK, all that posts on this thread convinced me that Jazz has to trade Gobert the sooner the better. For what? I don't think it is important at all. For the next 5-7 years spent in the bottom of the league it will hardly matter. Utah will enjoy trades and spectacular DM offense as mach as Lakers did Kobe-years after Shaq trade.

They won the championship twice post-Shaq.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#56 » by 100proof » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:30 pm

stitches wrote:
100proof wrote:A player like MArcus Smart I would trade, cannot see Danny Ainge ever trading Marcus though. he is the celtics.

I see... so what's going to be the offer then?


I dont know, Was just curious as to how highly team and fans still value Gobert.

I would love him on the celtics, but I would not give up Brown or Marcus, so a third team would have to be involved I suppose.

I thought Barnes would be a good add on your team out of Sacramento. Played with Mitchell in Fiba, excellent multi positional defender and can hit 3s. Locked up for a few years. Him and a couple of young guys and or picks?
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#57 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 pm

KqWIN wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:The Nuggets beat us without Barton and they lacked Harris for several games too so it's not like we were the only ones missing players. And we did manage a 3-1 lead without Bojan, so I don't think missing him is why we lost. Also, our biggest problem was on defense, where he wouldn't have helped that much. Our offense was fine.


And this version of DEN just beat the title favorites. This season is wide open. Jazz missed their greatest opportunity to compete for a championship. Even without Bogey, you can't say this team couldn't compete with the best.

This was 10000% the year to go all in...Just major failure on Conley and major fail on the prioritizing winning. The Jazz won't have this opportunity again for decades. The combination of the Warriors dynasty ending, "green" superteams like the Clippers, and the cap situation where our two best players cost less than one max will not happen again.

Good on DEN for capitalizing, massive blown opportunity for UTA.

You have consistently held the position that this season would be wide open, at least since the bubble. Every sport is a game of inches or seconds, and the Jazz (as well as the Clippers) lost their series by a thin margin. For the Jazz, it could have been the difference of an odd-ball 8 second violation or just one more Jamal Murray stop. If they would have had Bogey, I think it would have made a big difference. Conley, with the exception of game 7, showed up in the playoffs. The Jazz might have the worst bench in the NBA, which is another factor. Next season could be another odd ball season with Covid and a weird time frame, bubbles, teams over-reacting to their playoff losses, etc.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#58 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:28 pm

stitches wrote:
100proof wrote:when I asked about Gobert, I guess I didnt mean exclusively someone on Boston.

More less, what are team needs.

If you traded Gobert I would assume you would need a new center, etc. Is it a wing player that you want for Gobert? I cannot see getting either Smart or Brown for Gobert due to Rudy's offensive limitation and his contract situation.

The answer is still - a Jaylen Brown. Lol... that's the type we need most. I have no idea why you think any team can have Gobert for anything less than a Smart or a Brown... and especially Smart? Like... wut? You want 2 time DPOY, 3 time consecutive first team all-D, Western conference all star, and 3 consecutive times all-NBA player and you don't want to give up a Marcus Smart for that? Yeah... that's not going to happen. What did you want to give up for Gobert? no. 30 and Haywood? LOL Thanks but no thanks...

If we traded Gobert... a center might indeed be in the return package. I've pondered some packages including Myles Turner or Jarret Allen, but I don't think that's a requirement. I'd be good with giving our MLE to someone like Derrick Favors to come back and start for us if we lost Gobert.

I've found the Celtics fans to be be the most delusional out there.
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#59 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:42 pm

If this team trades Gobert, they instantly become a non-playoff team, IMO. Sure, Gobert has his offensive limitations and perimeter defensive limitations, but his value in the paint is unmatched at the moment.

If Conley can come around to form, even the bubble playoff form, and the Jazz can get an athletic bigger wing or forward that has starter level capability so as to have flexibility of moving Ingles to the 2nd unit, the Jazz could be top 3 in the West.

As a reminder, the Jazz are $14M away from the tax threshold. After their #23 pick, they only have $12M to round out the roster. I'm not sure that Clarkson comes back given the salary space constraints. Instead, I could see the Jazz targeting two or three players in the $3M-$6M range, in other words, guys who will be border line starters/solid bench players (e.g. Harrell, the Morri bros, JaMychal Green, etc were in this range last season). They would use their MLE and BAE to get these guys, while avoiding the tax.

(Edit: guards and wings in the $2M-$5M range this past year- Derrick Jones Jr, GR III, Alec Burks, Wilson Chandler, Bryn Forbes, Justin Holiday. Add one or two of these guys in place of one of the Gleague backups, get a passable bigger starting forward, and have Conley and Ingles play more with the backup unit, and it could all improve dramatically).
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Re: Thoughts on the Season + What's Next 

Post#60 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:29 pm

Q: If you're DL, and you have a choice between:
1)Blowing last of salary ($12M) on Clarkson; or
2) Bobby Portis ($7-9M), and one or two vet backups (could be from my list above),
which would you choose?

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