Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st

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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#81 » by KqWIN » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:14 pm

vryadli wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
vryadli wrote:
Utah culture assumes an extreme loyalty and no-no for primitive trash talk. Rudy never talked similar to Butler, his passion express through dark humor, not through self-enamoured insults.


He constantly yells at his teammates for not playing defense on the court and called out his teammates for not competing. The Utah culture is great, and that’s because players are accountable. It’s not acceptable to be soft or selfish. If that’s your thing, you’ll end up like Kanter, Burke, Lyles, and Hood. You have to be a grinder. Quin hasn’t been successful in changing people’s attitude. The players who have had success here are grinders.


Constant yelling is cheap and good mostly for self-promoting. That is why Duncan never did it and the Utah culture didn't had yelling very rarely. True competitor lead by example not by constantly yelling. Gosh, even Kobe didn't yelled and bitched as much as DWill and Butler


Should we trade Rudy then? He gets very mad and animated when people don’t defend, and he called out his teammates for not competing to the media.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#82 » by vryadli » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:16 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
vryadli wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

Kanter was an inefficient player who didn't play defense, so him having a bad attitude and diarrhea of the mouth wasn't tolerated. On the other hand, teams put up with great players, such as Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, etc. etc. who have the talent to make a difference but were hard on teammates and at times even their coaches or management. In the NBA talent reigns supreme.


It's relative of course. Kanter is much less as player, so team jump up in performance when rid of him. With Butler it can be even small plus in short term. And still a disaster in long term. As it was with DWill who has considered on par with CP, which Butler is far from.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#83 » by SoCalJazzFan » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:01 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
(Edit: Ainge's aggressive moves have got the Celtics to where they are now. Same with Morey and the Rockets. The Jazz got super lucky drafting Stockton and Malone, but their passiveness probably preventing them from winning a Championship during that era. Passivity rarely pays off for professional sports teams).


I've never understood why so many Jazz fans view the Utah front office as being passive. Due to the market they don't have the same access to all types of players, but they've certainly done their due diligence and have made tons of big moves over the years, regardless of who has been the GM. Here's a reminder:

During the glory days, didn't they trade for a All Star, who's jersey now hangs in the arena rafters? These days, that team would have been considered a Superteam; 2 HOF players, and All Star (Horny), and role players filling in the gaps. During the late 90's they also had a trade in place for Ronny Seikaly (who was a very competent player) that fell apart (the reason why depends on who you ask), and also made a trade for Derek "you play in Utah" Harper, that would have been a strong addition. They brought in Tom Chambers in the early 90's as a good complimentary piece as his career wound down, also added guys like Danny Manning & A.Carr, who were 20ppg scorers at one point, and grabbed Chris Morris as a free agent. They signed quality FA's J.Stark, C.Cheaney, M.Harpring & M.Jackson at the end of the Stockton-to-Malone years. (We won't discuss John Amaechi.) They also traded for D.Marshall, who was a really good player, IMO.

There were rough times once the statues retired, but it's not like the team sat on their hands. They traded scraps for T.Gugliotta (and a draft pick that turned into Haywood), who was a very good player in his prime, and signed Raja Bell (twice, but the second time was a mistake). The "down years" didn't last long as AK47 came into his own, which lead us to the next group of Western Conference Finalists.

They traded up to get DWill, and signed Okur and Boozer. Boozer's signing was especially aggressive, since he had already "agreed" to re-sign with the Cavs. They also traded for D.Fisher, and later Brevin Knight, who were both starters in the league. The team made another big trade by grabbing Al Jefferson on 2010. The team also traded for Kyle Korver. We all know how this group ended though, with the HUGE trade of DWill being moved for Favors, D.Harris (a former All Star), and high draft picks.

After that, they traded to bring Mo Williams back, and swapped Harris for Marvin WIlliams. They signed R.Foye (who broke the teams all time 3 pointers made record in his short stay). They later flipped Foye & trash for Andris Biedrins, Richard Jefferson, Brandon Rush & a 2014 1st round draft pick (Rodney Hood was later selected). They traded up to get T.Burke (didn't turn out too well, but we're talking about the FO "passiveness" not them always being perfect). During that 2013 draft, they then traded up to get Rudy Gobert, and used a 2nd round pick to trade for R.Neto. (Made up for the T.Burke trade, I'd say.) Hey, they even signed John Lucas III! (ouch) In 2014-15, they signed T.Booker, and cut losses with Kanter via trade, which opened up time for Gobert. (And Claimed Joe Ingles off waivers.)

The move to trade up to get Gobert (and trading for Favors earlier) started to shape the current Jazz team. But wait, there are more moves from our "passive" FO that got us what we have now. During the last couple seasons, they signed Diaw, Sefelosa & Jerebko, and they traded to get G.Hill (again, this is about activity, not if you like the trade). They signed Joe Johnson. In 2017 they traded for Ricky Rubio, traded up for Donovan Mitchell on draft day, and made a deadline deal for Jae Crowder.

Yup. Passive.

I'm not even sure we are in disagreement anymore as you seem to be making my argument.

Jazz got Horny to pull them into a contender.

Jazz were aggressive in getting Boozer (I mentioned this in another post/thread), which pulled them from a non-playoff state to eventually the WCFs.

Jazz need to be aggressive now to obtain a top 10, play both sides of the court, player who even in the superteam era puts the Jazz as a contender.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#84 » by zero24gravity » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:15 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:I'm not even sure we are in disagreement anymore as you seem to be making my argument.

Jazz got Horny to pull them into a contender.

Jazz were aggressive in getting Boozer (I mentioned this in another post/thread), which pulled them from a non-playoff state to eventually the WCFs.

Jazz need to be aggressive now to obtain a top 10, play both sides of the court, player who even in the superteam era puts the Jazz as a contender.


Ok cool. I like to be in agreement :)
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#85 » by vryadli » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:23 pm

KqWIN wrote:
vryadli wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
He constantly yells at his teammates for not playing defense on the court and called out his teammates for not competing. The Utah culture is great, and that’s because players are accountable. It’s not acceptable to be soft or selfish. If that’s your thing, you’ll end up like Kanter, Burke, Lyles, and Hood. You have to be a grinder. Quin hasn’t been successful in changing people’s attitude. The players who have had success here are grinders.


Constant yelling is cheap and good mostly for self-promoting. That is why Duncan never did it and the Utah culture didn't had yelling very rarely. True competitor lead by example not by constantly yelling. Gosh, even Kobe didn't yelled and bitched as much as DWill and Butler


Should we trade Rudy then? He gets very mad and animated when people don’t defend, and he called out his teammates for not competing to the media.

I don't remember any personal jabs from Rudy. And if team looks disengaged, he typically is much more hard on himself.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#86 » by Crunch 99 » Wed May 18, 2022 11:04 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:If I'm the Jazz brass, I'm definitely on the phone with the TWolves to see there is a realistic way to pull this off. Butler is the perfect 3rd piece (plays both sides of court, allows Ingles to be 6th man, doesn't overlap with other core pieces). A concern is certainly his age and miles on his body playing under Thibs all of these years. But, where else do the Jazz get someone like this? I think you have to take a Paul George leap of faith that Jimmy would like playing with the team and the success they have.


Of people who still post here, SoCalJazzFan advocated trying to get Butler to the Jazz in this thread in multiple posts. Looks like he was 100% correct to at least try. It's now 2022, early in the Heat - Celtics ECF, and Jimmy Butler is still in the running for brightest star of the 2022 playoffs. Of the remaining players, only Doncic has a higher scoring average, 31.7 ppg to Butler's 29.8 ppg, but Butler is getting it done on both ends of the floor. He is leading the playoffs in steals per game and he is one of this playoff's highest ranked defensive players.

Many of us in this thread had Butler wrong, with some calling Jimmy Butler a cancer, and others, including me, saying he might be more interested in simply settling to play in a big market (because he named three big market teams as potential destinations at the time) than he was interested in winning and being part of a good defensive team. The Heat have the best defensive rating at NBA.com for the playoff action so far.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#87 » by vryadli » Wed May 18, 2022 4:21 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:If I'm the Jazz brass, I'm definitely on the phone with the TWolves to see there is a realistic way to pull this off. Butler is the perfect 3rd piece (plays both sides of court, allows Ingles to be 6th man, doesn't overlap with other core pieces). A concern is certainly his age and miles on his body playing under Thibs all of these years. But, where else do the Jazz get someone like this? I think you have to take a Paul George leap of faith that Jimmy would like playing with the team and the success they have.


Of people who still post here, SoCalJazzFan advocated trying to get Butler to the Jazz in this thread in multiple posts. Looks like he was 100% correct to at least try. It's now 2022, early in the Heat - Celtics ECF, and Jimmy Butler is still in the running for brightest star of the 2022 playoffs. Of the remaining players, only Doncic has a higher scoring average, 31.7 ppg to Butler's 29.8 ppg, but Butler is getting it done on both ends of the floor. He is leading the playoffs in steals per game and he is one of this playoff's highest ranked defensive players.

Many of us in this thread had Butler wrong, with some calling Jimmy Butler a cancer, and others, including me, saying he might be more interested in simply settling to play in a big market (because he named three big market teams as potential destinations at the time) than he was interested in winning and being part of a good defensive team. The Heat have the best defensive rating at NBA.com for the playoff action so far.


Agree, I, for exapmple, was wrong about Butler himself. But, as we know now, Jazz was moving in direction to become the least fighting for wins and laziest defending team in the league, so he looks as even worse fit for Utah. He would possible died from heart stroke on fifth or seventh time of losing 20+ point advantage.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#88 » by Rauxcee » Thu May 19, 2022 2:00 am

Unless the Jazz could brainwash Jimmy into thinking Utah was Miami- we would have had the same results as Minny or Philly.

Jimmy IS a cancer when he is not on the team he wants to be on. Miami was on his wish list if I remember right (so was Brooklyn I think) neither Minny, Philly, or us were. We would have had the same results as Jimmy's previous 3 teams with him wanting out.


If a player doesn't want to play for a certain team, they won't stay. It's been proven time and again they will just leave or demand a trade. That's just how it is with high quality players in today's NBA.

Do you give up assets for a 1 maybe 2 year rental in hopes lightning strikes like it did for the Raptors? I don't know. Maybe you do go for the gamble.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#89 » by Crunch 99 » Thu May 19, 2022 3:01 pm

vryadli wrote:Agree, I, for example, was wrong about Butler himself. But, as we know now, Jazz was moving in direction to become the least fighting for wins and laziest defending team in the league, so he looks as even worse fit for Utah. He would possible died from heart stroke on fifth or seventh time of losing 20+ point advantage.


Rauxcee wrote:Unless the Jazz could brainwash Jimmy into thinking Utah was Miami- we would have had the same results as Minny or Philly.
Jimmy IS a cancer when he is not on the team he wants to be on. Miami was on his wish list if I remember right (so was Brooklyn I think) neither Minny, Philly, or us were. We would have had the same results as Jimmy's previous 3 teams with him wanting out.

If a player doesn't want to play for a certain team, they won't stay. It's been proven time and again they will just leave or demand a trade. That's just how it is with high quality players in today's NBA.

Do you give up assets for a 1 maybe 2 year rental in hopes lightning strikes like it did for the Raptors? I don't know. Maybe you do go for the gamble.


You are right that trading for Butler would have been a big risk and may well have ended in disaster with Butler leaving in free agency in summer 2019, but there is also chance it would have worked. Butler wanted out of Minnesota because of Towns and Wiggins nonchalant attitude on defense. Wiggins didn't become a good defender until he got rebuilt by the Warriors. I also suspect that Butler knew he had it in him to be "the man" on a contender. Butler would have meshed perfectly with Gobert's intense focus on defense. Obviously we would have had to give up some assets to get him, but we had a good defensive foundation in fall, 2018, with a 108.5 defensive rating versus a 114.8 defensive rating at NBA.com this last season. Slow Mo Joe, his nickname notwithstanding, was a good defender then. Ricky Rubio was a much better defender than Conley. Favors and Sefalosha still had good defensive juice in their tanks. Crowder was a tough guy. Exum could play some D. Udoh could play some D.

Mitchell was only in his second year; he wasn't an All Star yet and he may have deferred to and become a better two way player under the tutelage of All Star Butler. Butler could have been "the man" on this Jazz team. Players liked playing for Coach Snyder. Notwithstanding Butler having named three big city markets as desirable trade destinations, the Nets, Knicks and Clips, this brother drives a van around, listens to country western music and he likes to fish. Who knows, he might have loved camping in Moab and Zion and enjoyed all the other great outdoor opportunities that Utah has to offer. I think part of the reason Butler named those franchises as destinations was because they all had plenty of cap flexibility to pay Butler the max, there was opportunity for Butler to be the man on every one of those teams, and they all had additional cap flexibility to acquire a second max player.

I am too lazy to go back and review the circumstances under which Butler left Philly, but wasn't Philly running in to a cap crunch where they couldn't pay Embiid, Simmons and Butler the max while at the same time continue with Tobias Harris' contract? I am not sure they even offered Butler the max to stay, though I think he did get the max in a sign and trade. Embiid recently grumbled that Philadelphia should have done everything they could to keep Butler --- implying that Philly didn't try.

I wasn't pushing to try to go all in on trying to acquire Butler at the time along with most of us, but in hindsight (LOL), I would have rather taken a shot on him than be where this team is now.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#90 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu May 19, 2022 3:04 pm

Looking at it now, though, Burks+Crowder+protected 1st doesn't seem enough to get Butler anyway. Seems like too low of an offer.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#91 » by Rauxcee » Fri May 20, 2022 5:30 am

Crunch 99 wrote:I am too lazy to go back and review the circumstances under which Butler left Philly, but wasn't Philly running in to a cap crunch where they couldn't pay Embiid, Simmons and Butler the max while at the same time continue with Tobias Harris' contract? I am not sure they even offered Butler the max to stay, though I think he did get the max in a sign and trade. Embiid recently grumbled that Philadelphia should have done everything they could to keep Butler --- implying that Philly didn't try.

I wasn't pushing to try to go all in on trying to acquire Butler at the time along with most of us, but in hindsight (LOL), I would have rather taken a shot on him than be where this team is now.


Philly definitely had the means to pay Jimmy the Max- they gave it to Harris instead either because they are stupid and didn't want to pay him, or because Jimmy didn't want to stay. I believe there was talk about Philly not wanting to offer the max/years to Jimmy, but then why turn around and give it to Harris? Stupidity? Nobody in their right mind picks Harris over Butler.

I stand by my Jimmy had Miami on the brain and that's where he was going. Any excuse he gave was a cover to make him look better, when all he wanted was to play on the team he picked. I don't think there was anything Philly could have done to keep him. Obviously speculation on my part, but when you look at the history of every other player who wanted to play for a specific team, they all went to their wishlist team within a year or two despite the temporary delay. I think it's a pretty fair assumption to make.


And again, it might be worth it to rent a guy for a season and see if you get lucky in the playoffs (it worked for Toronto, though I think that is a normally unlikely scenario). But I understand the hesitancy of a small market team on doing that. Too many of those types of moves could literally kill a franchise (though I think the Jazz would survive).
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#92 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri May 20, 2022 8:07 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:If I'm the Jazz brass, I'm definitely on the phone with the TWolves to see there is a realistic way to pull this off. Butler is the perfect 3rd piece (plays both sides of court, allows Ingles to be 6th man, doesn't overlap with other core pieces). A concern is certainly his age and miles on his body playing under Thibs all of these years. But, where else do the Jazz get someone like this? I think you have to take a Paul George leap of faith that Jimmy would like playing with the team and the success they have.


Of people who still post here, SoCalJazzFan advocated trying to get Butler to the Jazz in this thread in multiple posts. Looks like he was 100% correct to at least try. It's now 2022, early in the Heat - Celtics ECF, and Jimmy Butler is still in the running for brightest star of the 2022 playoffs. Of the remaining players, only Doncic has a higher scoring average, 31.7 ppg to Butler's 29.8 ppg, but Butler is getting it done on both ends of the floor. He is leading the playoffs in steals per game and he is one of this playoff's highest ranked defensive players.

Many of us in this thread had Butler wrong, with some calling Jimmy Butler a cancer, and others, including me, saying he might be more interested in simply settling to play in a big market (because he named three big market teams as potential destinations at the time) than he was interested in winning and being part of a good defensive team. The Heat have the best defensive rating at NBA.com for the playoff action so far.

That's nice of you to highlight me (on one of the occassions I was actually right, haha). I had no problem with Jimmy going after the TWolves org, coaches and players he did for lacking the desire to play and insist on playing D. Would he have stayed with the Jazz, I have no idea.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#93 » by babyjax13 » Thu May 26, 2022 5:31 am

Since we are talking about Jimmy and the hesitancy there was to offer up value for him...how do people feel about the NBA's most recent disgruntled star (who we once tried to trade for): Kyrie Irving? I'd go for it.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#94 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu May 26, 2022 7:52 am

babyjax13 wrote:Since we are talking about Jimmy and the hesitancy there was to offer up value for him...how do people feel about the NBA's most recent disgruntled star (who we once tried to trade for): Kyrie Irving? I'd go for it.

Not sure I'd go for it. Irving tends to miss a lot of games, be it due to injuries or other reasons. He's not a good defender and he's as small as Conley so our back court will still be a sieve and tiny. He'll command a giant salary too. We could only get him by trade so we'll have to deplete our non-existent asset pool as well. I think I'd pass, as good as he is.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#95 » by Crunch 99 » Thu May 26, 2022 12:40 pm

Further speaking of Jimmy Butler, he only had one more outstanding playoff game after I praised him, and then then laid an egg in the last three games, averaging 9 ppg on 13.3 fga with 25%/14.3% shooting for the last three games.

Looks to me like both Butler and Lowry are playing hurt. I tuned in to last night's game just long enough to see Lowry miss the rim completely on two wide open threes. Lowry went 0 for 6 for the game in 25 minutes and is only averaging 5.6 ppg on 7.5 fga for his eight playoff games, to include 26.7%/20.5% shooting in 27.4 mpg. At the moment, old man Lowry's new contract that he signed in summer 2021 is looking like it might turn out to be a bigger albatross than the contract that our own old man Conley signed in summer 2021. Both of these high paid old point guards had pretty good regular season stats, but have performed poorly in this season's playoffs. (Maybe I just reverse jinxed Lowry for game six. Lol.)
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Re: Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st 

Post#96 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu May 26, 2022 3:11 pm

Yeah, Butler is definitely playing hurt.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.

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