Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st

[KqWIN]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

[vryadli]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

[vryadli]

I’m with SoCal on this one. Jimmy biggest issue seems to be that he thinks his teammates are soft and don’t work hard enough. We’ve praised Rudy doing very similar things. I don’t necessarily think it’s healthy to call out your teammates...but if your problem is that people don’t compete hard enough, I can live with that.

The Rubio “beef” was also overblown. I saw tweets from people around the situation who said it was just normal, fun trash talk. It wasn’t serious...just like the Rubio-Gobert “beef” wasn’t serious.

Jimmy would find common ground here in Utah. Let’s be clear about our culture, it’s not for everyone. There have been several players who left on somewhat bad terms. If you’re soft, don’t compete, and don’t work hard this is not the team for you. This is a place for people who grind and work hard. The type of players who Jimmy complains about get sent out quickly.

I’m not saying we do everything in our power to trade for him...but the idea that we wouldn’t take him for free is just insane. For all the cancer Jimmy caused, he brought the Wolves to their best season in more than a decade. They weren’t a good team when he was injured either. He’s an elite talent and you can’t pass that up.

Utah culture assumes an extreme loyalty and no-no for primitive trash talk. Rudy never talked similar to Butler, his passion express through dark humor, not through self-enamoured insults.

[Pass_the_rock]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

I don't think KqWin takes chemistry into consideration at all. That's fairy tales for losers. Talent trumps all of it. Like last year Jazz didn't have the talent to do anything and should have tanked the season. What were Snyder and DL thinking?!!! If only KqWin and Stitches were running things for Utah Jazz, dynasty would be on the horizon.

[PharmD]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

Yep, he's really good. Certainly much better than Brandon Rush or Shabazz Muhammad (the other guys starting in his stead).

[KqWIN]

I’m with SoCal on this one. Jimmy biggest issue seems to be that he thinks his teammates are soft and don’t work hard enough. We’ve praised Rudy doing very similar things. I don’t necessarily think it’s healthy to call out your teammates...but if your problem is that people don’t compete hard enough, I can live with that.

The Rubio “beef” was also overblown. I saw tweets from people around the situation who said it was just normal, fun trash talk. It wasn’t serious...just like the Rubio-Gobert “beef” wasn’t serious.

Jimmy would find common ground here in Utah. Let’s be clear about our culture, it’s not for everyone. There have been several players who left on somewhat bad terms. If you’re soft, don’t compete, and don’t work hard this is not the team for you. This is a place for people who grind and work hard. The type of players who Jimmy complains about get sent out quickly.

I’m not saying we do everything in our power to trade for him...but the idea that we wouldn’t take him for free is just insane. For all the cancer Jimmy caused, he brought the Wolves to their best season in more than a decade. They weren’t a good team when he was injured either. He’s an elite talent and you can’t pass that up.

Utah culture assumes an extreme loyalty and no-no for primitive trash talk. Rudy never talked similar to Butler, his passion express through dark humor, not through self-enamoured insults.

He constantly yells at his teammates for not playing defense on the court and called out his teammates for not competing. The Utah culture is great, and that’s because players are accountable. It’s not acceptable to be soft or selfish. If that’s your thing, you’ll end up like Kanter, Burke, Lyles, and Hood. You have to be a grinder. Quin hasn’t been successful in changing people’s attitude. The players who have had success here are grinders.

[KqWIN]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

I don't think KqWin takes chemistry into consideration at all. That's fairy tales for losers. Talent trumps all of it. Like last year Jazz didn't have the talent to do anything and should have tanked the season. What were Snyder and DL thinking?!!! If only KqWin and Stitches were running things for Utah Jazz, dynasty would be on the horizon.

Forgive me for thinking that talent matters. Of course chemistry matters, but you guys are acting like it’s the only thing that matters. LeBron brings more drama than any player in the league, maybe in league history, but are you saying we shouldn’t roll out the red carpet if he wanted to be here?

My point is, the Timberwolves had terrible chemistry and still had the best season in over a decade. As toxic as you think Butler may be, it certainly didn’t play out that way in the win column. Who knows what happens from here on out, maybe this gives KAT and Wiggins the kick in the butt they need, but it’s undeniable that Butler is a huge talent and that leads to more wins.

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

Yep, he's really good. Certainly much better than Brandon Rush or Shabazz Muhammad (the other guys starting in his stead).

Certainly much better than Burks and Crowder as well. Also better than nothing, which people in here are not willing to give up for him.

I get that people want to win with “our guys” and like following a happy team, or at least the perception of a happy team, but I prefer to see the team progress.

[stitches]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

I don't think KqWin takes chemistry into consideration at all. That's fairy tales for losers. Talent trumps all of it. Like last year Jazz didn't have the talent to do anything and should have tanked the season. What were Snyder and DL thinking?!!! If only KqWin and Stitches were running things for Utah Jazz, dynasty would be on the horizon.

That was me. KqWIN has always been much more moderate on the tanking vs no-tanking camps here. In fact if I had to put him somewhere on the spectrum I'd say he's closer to the no-tankers if I'm not mistaken.

BTW lets not pretend that anyone on here(or even in our front office) knew what we had in Mitchell at the same time last year. And for the record, we still need one more premium piece in order to be legit contenders IMO.

[SoCalJazzFan]

They don't have the cap space next summer to resign Jimmy, and certainly not another star.

Why? Wouldn't they have his bird rights?


I don't think our offer of leftovers is any more enticing than Miami's or anyone else's. And Minnesota is not trading a top 10-15 player to a division rival. That thought is asinine. The idea of cap space to sign a player to pair with their 2 franchise players is great. Sounds exactly like the Jazz. Also like the Jazz, no big time player will likely come in FA. I don't see it and it's not logical to me for the Wolves to take that approach.

I misspoke, the Heat could certainly sign him due to his bird rights, but they would go way into the tax and wouldn't be able to sign anyone else of consequence. They would most likely go from borderline playoff team to middling playoff team, and over time perhaps back as Jimmy ages towards the end of his contract.

The Jazz can offer on par leftovers as other teams are offering, but have Grayson Allen and picks that they can also give up. Might sound like an overpay for the possibility of having a one and done, but no one is going to cry over or even remember losing these assets if it works out and the Jazz make it to the Finals.

[SoCalJazzFan]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

Kanter was an inefficient player who didn't play defense, so him having a bad attitude and diarrhea of the mouth wasn't tolerated. On the other hand, teams put up with great players, such as Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, etc. etc. who have the talent to make a difference but were hard on teammates and at times even their coaches or management. In the NBA talent reigns supreme.

That said, I'm not advocating assembling the Portland Jailbreakers. Rather, adding a really, really good player who has complained about the fitness and play of his team. The guy might have a strong personality, but he has been dedicated to winning, which is where that personality has been evidenced in the past. He would join a team that has similar values.

Butler has been an All-Star each of the last four seasons and is one of only six players to average at least 20 points, five rebounds and 4.5 assists in each of the past three. He's a four-time All-Defensive selection and a two-time All-NBA second-teamer. He might not be at the level of those mentioned above, but he is the best option the Jazz have in the foreseeable future.

The team as presently constituted, as great of a story as it is and as likeable as they are, aren't good enough to most likely get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs, and certainly not to the Finals. When Mitchell and Gobert are up for their next contracts, I'm not sure how the Jazz would get that 3rd difference maker, which is necessary to make the leap. As has been mentioned on another thread, the time is now during Mitchell's rookie contract. The Los Angeles Rams have realized this by taking advantage of their adequate to blossoming star QB being on a rookie contract and spent money on other players to go for it and take advantage of the situation. They are looking like a top 2 team in the NFL. The Jazz need to take a similar approach.

[SoCalJazzFan]

If Danny Ainge were the Jazz GM, I wonder what he would be doing this week.

[Pass_the_rock]

BTW lets not pretend that anyone on here(or even in our front office) knew what we had in Mitchell at the same time last year. And for the record, we still need one more premium piece in order to be legit contenders IMO.

I mean the pre-season hype here was insane, come on. Many people were (homerishly ofc) pulling for him to replace Haywood's production.

Also let's not pretend like Mitchell was the main reason for the successful season. I'd rate his input at 25%. The sample size without him is very small but Jazz dispatched Spurs handily twice without DM. The team looked competent.

And what would you take now? This team confident to start the season or a team that tanked the whole season, with top 10 rookie and no confidence or chemistry?

[Pass_the_rock]

If Danny Ainge were the Jazz GM, I wonder what he would be doing this week.

You mean regarding Butler?
What is Ainge doing now or did last summer when Butler was also available?

Ainge is a guy who rates his prospects too much for better or worse. He had a chance at Pissy P, KL and Butler and did nothing.

[stitches]

BTW lets not pretend that anyone on here(or even in our front office) knew what we had in Mitchell at the same time last year. And for the record, we still need one more premium piece in order to be legit contenders IMO.

I mean the pre-season hype here was insane, come on. Many people were (homerishly ofc) pulling for him to replace Haywood's production.

Also let's not pretend like Mitchell was the main reason for the successful season. I'd rate his input at 25%. The sample size without him is very small but Jazz dispatched Spurs handily twice without DM. The team looked competent.

And what would you take now? This team confident to start the season or a team that tanked the whole season, with top 10 rookie and no confidence or chemistry?

None of the tank-commanders here thought we would be horrible(and this was the problem). We all thought we would be... somewhere on the spectrum of mediocre to... competent to good... so yeah, I would agree we would have looked competent even if Mitchell didn't blow up like he did. The problem is that competent or good is not good enough. That was the whole point. Now with Mitchell on a collision course with superstardom of course the ceiling of this team has been raised, but IMO again - we still need one more premier piece(especially offensively) in order to be legitimately able to compete with the best of the best in the league.

I think we can compete with most teams in the league, but I'm not sure we will be able to match the best of the best(GSW, HOU, BOS?? if healthy, TOR if Kawhi gets back to what he used to be).

[SoCalJazzFan]

If Danny Ainge were the Jazz GM, I wonder what he would be doing this week.

You mean regarding Butler?
What is Ainge doing now or did last summer when Butler was also available?

Ainge is a guy who rates his prospects too much for better or worse. He had a chance at Pissy P, KL and Butler and did nothing.

You need to read more carefully, I posed the question if Ainge were the GM of the Jazz, not the Celtics.

Last year, he passed on getting Butler and paying assets, and instead got Hayward without paying assets. He has assembled a great Celtics team with a combination of vets and pricey contracts and good young, cheap players. The Celtics are a top 4 team in the NBa, and likely to find themselves in the Finals this year. He has no reason to pull of a trade at the moment.

(Edit: Ainge's aggressive moves have got the Celtics to where they are now. Same with Morey and the Rockets. The Jazz got super lucky drafting Stockton and Malone, but their passiveness probably preventing them from winning a Championship during that era. Passivity rarely pays off for professional sports teams).

[Pass_the_rock]

If Danny Ainge were the Jazz GM, I wonder what he would be doing this week.

You mean regarding Butler?
What is Ainge doing now or did last summer when Butler was also available?

Ainge is a guy who rates his prospects too much for better or worse. He had a chance at Pissy P, KL and Butler and did nothing.

You need to read more carefully, I posed the question if Ainge were the GM of the Jazz, not the Celtics.

Last year, he passed on getting Butler and paying assets, and instead got Hayward without paying assets. He has assembled a great Celtics team with a combination of vets and pricey contracts and good young, cheap players. The Celtics are a top 4 team in the NBa, and likely to find themselves in the Finals this year. He has no reason to pull of a trade at the moment.

(Edit: Ainge's aggressive moves have got the Celtics to where they are now. Same with Morey and the Rockets. The Jazz got super lucky drafting Stockton and Malone, but their passiveness probably preventing them from winning a Championship during that era. Passivity rarely pays off for professional sports teams).

Aggressive moves? When? Yeah, he took advantage of some bad GMs of the years. But those were not risky moves, those were no-brainers (Nets trade, Irving trade, Tatum trade is there as well imo). But when there's a risk at stake he sits on his ass, hording his assets. He's a good GM, calculates his moves a few steps ahead, but he's not bold.

[vryadli]

Minnesota was 31-51 before cancer. 37-22 (51 win pace) with cancer. 10-13 (36 win pace) when cancer was injured.

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

I don't think KqWin takes chemistry into consideration at all. That's fairy tales for losers. Talent trumps all of it. Like last year Jazz didn't have the talent to do anything and should have tanked the season. What were Snyder and DL thinking?!!! If only KqWin and Stitches were running things for Utah Jazz, dynasty would be on the horizon.

Ha! You remember that too? Looks like our perceptions are pretty much synchronized. But Jazz got Mitchell, yes? So that saves that point whatever Rudy/Mitchell absences can show for dense fellas like us. If not him Jazz would be better at the very bottom of conference, right.

[zero24gravity]

(Edit: Ainge's aggressive moves have got the Celtics to where they are now. Same with Morey and the Rockets. The Jazz got super lucky drafting Stockton and Malone, but their passiveness probably preventing them from winning a Championship during that era. Passivity rarely pays off for professional sports teams).

I've never understood why so many Jazz fans view the Utah front office as being passive. Due to the market they don't have the same access to all types of players, but they've certainly done their due diligence and have made tons of big moves over the years, regardless of who has been the GM. Here's a reminder:

During the glory days, didn't they trade for a All Star, who's jersey now hangs in the arena rafters? These days, that team would have been considered a Superteam; 2 HOF players, and All Star (Horny), and role players filling in the gaps. During the late 90's they also had a trade in place for Ronny Seikaly (who was a very competent player) that fell apart (the reason why depends on who you ask), and also made a trade for Derek "you play in Utah" Harper, that would have been a strong addition. They brought in Tom Chambers in the early 90's as a good complimentary piece as his career wound down, also added guys like Danny Manning & A.Carr, who were 20ppg scorers at one point, and grabbed Chris Morris as a free agent. They signed quality FA's J.Stark, C.Cheaney, M.Harpring & M.Jackson at the end of the Stockton-to-Malone years. (We won't discuss John Amaechi.) They also traded for D.Marshall, who was a really good player, IMO.

There were rough times once the statues retired, but it's not like the team sat on their hands. They traded scraps for T.Gugliotta (and a draft pick that turned into Haywood), who was a very good player in his prime, and signed Raja Bell (twice, but the second time was a mistake). The "down years" didn't last long as AK47 came into his own, which lead us to the next group of Western Conference Finalists.

They traded up to get DWill, and signed Okur and Boozer. Boozer's signing was especially aggressive, since he had already "agreed" to re-sign with the Cavs. They also traded for D.Fisher, and later Brevin Knight, who were both starters in the league. The team made another big trade by grabbing Al Jefferson on 2010. The team also traded for Kyle Korver. We all know how this group ended though, with the HUGE trade of DWill being moved for Favors, D.Harris (a former All Star), and high draft picks.

After that, they traded to bring Mo Williams back, and swapped Harris for Marvin WIlliams. They signed R.Foye (who broke the teams all time 3 pointers made record in his short stay). They later flipped Foye & trash for Andris Biedrins, Richard Jefferson, Brandon Rush & a 2014 1st round draft pick (Rodney Hood was later selected). They traded up to get T.Burke (didn't turn out too well, but we're talking about the FO "passiveness" not them always being perfect). During that 2013 draft, they then traded up to get Rudy Gobert, and used a 2nd round pick to trade for R.Neto. (Made up for the T.Burke trade, I'd say.) Hey, they even signed John Lucas III! (ouch) In 2014-15, they signed T.Booker, and cut losses with Kanter via trade, which opened up time for Gobert. (And Claimed Joe Ingles off waivers.)

The move to trade up to get Gobert (and trading for Favors earlier) started to shape the current Jazz team. But wait, there are more moves from our "passive" FO that got us what we have now. During the last couple seasons, they signed Diaw, Sefelosa & Jerebko, and they traded to get G.Hill (again, this is about activity, not if you like the trade). They signed Joe Johnson. In 2017 they traded for Ricky Rubio, traded up for Donovan Mitchell on draft day, and made a deadline deal for Jae Crowder.

Yup. Passive.

[vryadli]

I’m with SoCal on this one. Jimmy biggest issue seems to be that he thinks his teammates are soft and don’t work hard enough. We’ve praised Rudy doing very similar things. I don’t necessarily think it’s healthy to call out your teammates...but if your problem is that people don’t compete hard enough, I can live with that.

The Rubio “beef” was also overblown. I saw tweets from people around the situation who said it was just normal, fun trash talk. It wasn’t serious...just like the Rubio-Gobert “beef” wasn’t serious.

Jimmy would find common ground here in Utah. Let’s be clear about our culture, it’s not for everyone. There have been several players who left on somewhat bad terms. If you’re soft, don’t compete, and don’t work hard this is not the team for you. This is a place for people who grind and work hard. The type of players who Jimmy complains about get sent out quickly.

I’m not saying we do everything in our power to trade for him...but the idea that we wouldn’t take him for free is just insane. For all the cancer Jimmy caused, he brought the Wolves to their best season in more than a decade. They weren’t a good team when he was injured either. He’s an elite talent and you can’t pass that up.

Utah culture assumes an extreme loyalty and no-no for primitive trash talk. Rudy never talked similar to Butler, his passion express through dark humor, not through self-enamoured insults.

He constantly yells at his teammates for not playing defense on the court and called out his teammates for not competing. The Utah culture is great, and that’s because players are accountable. It’s not acceptable to be soft or selfish. If that’s your thing, you’ll end up like Kanter, Burke, Lyles, and Hood. You have to be a grinder. Quin hasn’t been successful in changing people’s attitude. The players who have had success here are grinders.

Constant yelling is cheap and good mostly for self-promoting. That is why Duncan never did it and the Utah culture didn't had yelling very rarely. True competitor lead by example not by constantly yelling. Gosh, even Kobe didn't yelled and bitched as much as DWill and Butler

[vryadli]

You missed point about chemistry factor. Utah has the best in the league and Minnesota has none recently. With or without Butler. As for Utah with Kan-c-ter the numbers were opposite.

I don't think KqWin takes chemistry into consideration at all. That's fairy tales for losers. Talent trumps all of it. Like last year Jazz didn't have the talent to do anything and should have tanked the season. What were Snyder and DL thinking?!!! If only KqWin and Stitches were running things for Utah Jazz, dynasty would be on the horizon.

That was me. KqWIN has always been much more moderate on the tanking vs no-tanking camps here. In fact if I had to put him somewhere on the spectrum I'd say he's closer to the no-tankers if I'm not mistaken.

BTW lets not pretend that anyone on here(or even in our front office) knew what we had in Mitchell at the same time last year. And for the record, we still need one more premium piece in order to be legit contenders IMO.

Wow! A commendable honesty. I admire you! (no kidding that time)