NBA 2017 Draft Prospects Thread

sipclip · Post #921 » by **sipclip** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:33 am

Good lord this Boston thing is frustrating. I want to say that we are the right choice for Hayward but Ainge has done such a great job of collecting assets that I simply can't say that. If I were them I would take Fultz because I see him becoming a superstar but watch them turn that number 1 pick into the 3rd pick while collecting another big time future asset like the lakers pick or the kings 2019 unprotected pick. In next years draft they could be looking at 2 top 5 picks to go along with an already incredible core group of players.

KqWIN · Post #922 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:34 am

stitches wrote:
pickIBL wrote:If they send bradley and zeller to chicago they could move smart or jae for future assests and we'd take back jonas or kelly on a one year bloated guarantee.

Horford
Blake
Hayward
Butler
Thomas

You know Boston does that. And if Danny says if we play ball we get assets back for helping (instead of losing him outright)... why not? It's not like danny has to worry about us screwing him because hayward could bolt to miami for nothing if we play games

Because Boston has absolutely no leverage in this situation. All the leverage is on Jazz side. Why would the Jazz do it? In this situation you do a trade only if you think the package you are getting is better than Hayward. If I'm the Jazz I keep Hayward. WIthout the Jazz Boston can't sign him. And I have close to ZERO worry that he goes to Miami. So yeah... Unless the Jazz/Hayward relationship is so acrimonious that he will leave just to screw the Jazz over, the Jazz are the best suitor left standing. BY A MARGIN!

Another consideration is that they could just as easily do the sign and trade with LAC. There's no reason to sign Blake first instead of Hayward. As in, there is no reason to help Utah versus LAC.

This order is possible (I think)

Bradley + Zeller + #3 for Butler
Crowder for draft pick
Sign Blake/Hayward using cap space
Sign and trade Olynyk + something for Blake/Hayward

*Important! That something doesn't have to be Brown. It can be Smart, Zizic+Rozier, or Brown.

Also, Kelly is not taking a one year deal for $20 Million. He can't be thrown around like a ragdoll because he can easily sign an offer sheet for someone else and get way more guaranteed money and security.

stitches · Post #923 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:42 am

KqWIN wrote:
Another consideration is that they could just as easily do the sign and trade with LAC. There's no reason to sign Blake first instead of Hayward. As in, there is no reason to help Utah versus LAC.

This order is possible (I think)

Bradley + Zeller + #3 for Butler
Crowder for draft pick
Sign Blake/Hayward using cap space
Sign and trade Olynyk + something for Blake/Hayward

*Important! That something doesn't have to be Brown. It can be Smart, Zizic+Rozier, or Brown.

Also, Kelly is not taking a one year deal for $20 Million. He can't be thrown around like a ragdoll because he can easily sign an offer sheet for someone else and get way more guaranteed money and security.

I don't know... My head hurts. LOL There are way too many moving parts for those to happen. S&Ts practically never happen anyways. And in this one we want it to be a two-way SnT... it's not happening, IMO.

pickIBL · Post #924 » by **pickIBL** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:46 am

KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:
pickIBL wrote:If they send bradley and zeller to chicago they could move smart or jae for future assests and we'd take back jonas or kelly on a one year bloated guarantee.

Horford
Blake
Hayward
Butler
Thomas

You know Boston does that. And if Danny says if we play ball we get assets back for helping (instead of losing him outright)... why not? It's not like danny has to worry about us screwing him because hayward could bolt to miami for nothing if we play games

Because Boston has absolutely no leverage in this situation. All the leverage is on Jazz side. Why would the Jazz do it? In this situation you do a trade only if you think the package you are getting is better than Hayward. If I'm the Jazz I keep Hayward. WIthout the Jazz Boston can't sign him. And I have close to ZERO worry that he goes to Miami. So yeah... Unless the Jazz/Hayward relationship is so acrimonious that he will leave just to screw the Jazz over, the Jazz are the best suitor left standing. BY A MARGIN!

Another consideration is that they could just as easily do the sign and trade with LAC. There's no reason to sign Blake first instead of Hayward. As in, there is no reason to help Utah versus LAC.

This order is possible (I think)

Bradley + Zeller + #3 for Butler
Crowder for draft pick
Sign Blake/Hayward using cap space
Sign and trade Olynyk + something for Blake/Hayward

*Important! That something doesn't have to be Brown. It can be Smart, Zizic+Rozier, or Brown.

Also, Kelly is not taking a one year deal for $20 Million. He can't be thrown around like a ragdoll because he can easily sign an offer sheet for someone else and get way more guaranteed money and security.

Yea jonas is the rag doll for sure.

Why us versus the Clippers? Has hayward officially opted out? We can communicate with him. Say hey we want yo help. No hard feelings. Doc is too win now to think like that.

But to pay jonas 20 Million they ought to give brown and yabusele.

stitches · Post #925 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:47 am

pickIBL wrote:Yea jonas is the rag doll for sure.

Why us versus the Clippers? Has hayward officially opted out? We can communicate with him. Say hey we want yo help. No hard feelings. Doc is too win now to think like that.

But to pay jonas 20 Million they ought to give brown and yabusele.

Hayward is going to opt out even if he wants to stay with the Jazz. Him opting out is not a sign of him not wanting to be with the Jazz. To me it sounds like you actually prefer he goes if that nets us Brown and Yabusele?

sipclip · Post #926 » by **sipclip** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:48 am

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:
stitches wrote:
UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Been reading a lot of rumors that the Celtics will flip the #3 pick and a lot of other 1st rounders to land Jimmy Butler.

That doesn't sound good. I think it makes Boston a more attractive destination, IMO.

Yup.

If that happens, I'm lowering the chances of Utah re-signing Hayward down to about 15%.

Hopefully Hayward values having the ball in his hands and getting a chance to expand his game more than being on a possible super team. If Hayward goes there with Butler and Thomas still on the team then he becomes the 3rd fiddle and fighting for touches just like Chris Bosh dealt with.

pickIBL · Post #927 » by **pickIBL** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:51 am

The jazz just seem like the team with the fo, ownership and coach all on the same page to do something this smart long term. Doc's head would explode and Microsoft man wants to convulse and shake his fists on national tv next year

stitches · Post #928 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:52 am

Hayward and Butler together is a pretty good combo. It's a dynamic wing duo that I would love to see on the Jazz. THe big problem with it on the Celtics though is having the midget at the PG spot. Are they really going to pay him max'ish money next year? IT has value when he's creating offense on a team that lacked offensive creation. A lot of his value is lost when you have 2 playmaking wings, while his liability on D won't be mitigated by a team lacking point of attack defense(IT) and lacking a good rim-protector. This will be a really weird fit to me - again, not because of Hayward/Butler combo, but because they seemingly get tied to IT long term. They also won't have any bigs except for Horford(+rookies)...

pickIBL · Post #929 » by **pickIBL** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:54 am

stitches wrote:
pickIBL wrote:Yea jonas is the rag doll for sure.

Why us versus the Clippers? Has hayward officially opted out? We can communicate with him. Say hey we want yo help. No hard feelings. Doc is too win now to think like that.

But to pay jonas 20 Million they ought to give brown and yabusele.

Hayward is going to opt out even if he wants to stay with the Jazz. Him opting out is not a sign of him not wanting to be with the Jazz. To me it sounds like you actually prefer he goes if that nets us Brown and Yabusele?

No but both have all star potential. I value yabusele more than the 24.

KqWIN · Post #930 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:58 am

Alright, I think I got it (probably not, but oh well :lol:

).

Stage 1: Original Roster + Holds

Boston Roster: Horford - Thomas - Bradley - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizic - Olynyk + #3

Cap Space: $21.2 M

Stage 2: Trade Bradley + #3 + Zeller for Butler

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler - Thomas - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizc - Olynyk

Stage 3: Dump Crowder - Yabsuele* - Rozier/Zizic* - Brown/Smart

* = Convince to stay in Europe.

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler -Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Cap Space: $30.1 M

Stage 4: Sign Max Free Agent

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Butler - Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Stage 5: Trade Olynyk (S&T) - Brown/Smart for another Max

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Max - Thomas - Rozier/Zizic

So either LAC or UTA would be getting Olynyk ($20 M a season) + Smart most likely.

SoCalJazzFan · Post #931 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:05 am

Interestingly, Dennis Smith Jr. held a workout for teams to come and see him recently and indicated that he was doing that in lieu of working out at teams' locations. Then, reports are today that he is working out with the Celitics tomorrow. Perhaps the Celtics want DSJ at #3, and would get Butler with the stash of 2018 picks, and perhaps some 2017 picks too (the Celts and 6ers own 5 second round picks this draft).

stitches · Post #932 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:07 am

KqWIN wrote:Alright, I think I got it (probably not, but oh well ).

Stage 1: Original Roster + Holds

Boston Roster: Horford - Thomas - Bradley - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizic - Olynyk + #3

Cap Space: $21.2 M

Stage 2: Trade Bradley + #3 + Zeller for Butler

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler - Thomas - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizc - Olynyk

Stage 3: Dump Crowder - Yabsuele* - Rozier/Zizic* - Brown/Smart

* = Convince to stay in Europe.

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler -Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Cap Space: $30.1 M

Stage 4: Sign Max Free Agent

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Butler - Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Stage 5: Trade Olynyk (S&T) - Brown/Smart for another Max

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Max - Thomas - Rozier/Zizic

So either LAC or UTA would be getting Olynyk ($20 M a season) + Smart most likely.

If a team doesn't have enough players on the roster you need to add minimum salary for every roster spot up to roster spot no. 12.

Meaning at stage 2 you need to add 2M to their cap hold number. Which would mean they would have about 28M space and then you need to ad 6 min salaries(about 6 million) at stage 3 which would mean they will have only 24M to give to a FA.

SoCalJazzFan · Post #933 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:08 am

I really don't see a very realistic scenario where the Celtics trade for Butler and are able to sign both Hayward and Griffin. I think that if they got Butler I think that they see themselves set at wing and they go for Griffin to shore up their frontcourt.

sipclip · Post #934 » by **sipclip** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:13 am

1. Fultz
2. Dennis Smith
3. Josh Jackson
4. Tatum
5. Ball
6. Fox
7. Bam
8. Isaac
9. Markkanen
10. Monk
11. Ntilikina
12. TJ Leaf
13. Donovan Mitchell
14. Pasecniks
15. Zach Collins
16. Frank Jackson
17. Jonah Bolden
18. Justin Patton
19. John Collins
20. Jordan Bell
21. Justin Jackson
22. Jarrett Allen
23. OG Anunoby
24. DJ Wilson
25. Harry Giles
26. Derrick White
27. Isaiah Hartenstein
28. Ivan Raab
29. Jawun Evans
30. Terrance Ferguson
31. Tyler Lydon
32. Kuzma
33. Ike Anibogu
34. Mathias Lessort
35. PJ Dozier
36. Luke Kennard
37. Semi Ojelye
38. Tony Bradley
39. Caleb Swanigan
40. Motley
41. Thomas Bryant
42. Devin Robinson
43. Wesley Iwundu
44. George De Paula

KqWIN · Post #935 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:15 am

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Alright, I think I got it (probably not, but oh well ).

Stage 1: Original Roster + Holds

Boston Roster: Horford - Thomas - Bradley - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizic - Olynyk + #3

Cap Space: $21.2 M

Stage 2: Trade Bradley + #3 + Zeller for Butler

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler - Thomas - Crowder - Brown - Smart - Rozier - Yabusele - Zizc - Olynyk

Stage 3: Dump Crowder - Yabsuele* - Rozier/Zizic* - Brown/Smart

* = Convince to stay in Europe.

Boston Roster: Horford - Butler -Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Cap Space: $30.1 M

Stage 4: Sign Max Free Agent

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Butler - Thomas - Brown/Smart - Rozier/Zizic - Olynyk

Stage 5: Trade Olynyk (S&T) - Brown/Smart for another Max

Boston Roster: Horford - Max - Max - Thomas - Rozier/Zizic

So either LAC or UTA would be getting Olynyk ($20 M a season) + Smart most likely.

If a team doesn't have enough players on the roster you need to add minimum salary for every roster spot up to roster spot no. 12.

Meaning at stage 2 you need to add 2M to their cap number. Which would mean they would have about 28M space and then you need to ad 6 min salaries(about 6 million) at stage 3 which would mean they will have only 24M to give to a FA.

I already counted those in. Here is my sheet:

SoCalJazzFan · Post #936 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:16 am

I could see Josh Hart being the Brogdon of this draft class, and would be happy to pick him up with #42.

KqWIN · Post #937 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:20 am

KqWIN wrote:I already counted those in. Here is my sheet:

****, I messed up! These cap totals don't include them dumping Crowder, so Boston can keep him in this scenario.

Either way, there's a lot of cat and mouse scenarios. Players and Teams can say **** you to a lot other parties that would ruin this. I'm not going over all of them and not going to find anymore of my mistakes!

pickIBL · Post #938 » by **pickIBL** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:22 am

It works!

KqWIN · Post #939 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:25 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:I could see Josh Hart being the Brogdon of this draft class, and would be happy to pick him up with #42.

I could see that, but imo Brogdao was better at Hart in the role player categories. He was a better shooter, passer, and defender. Those skilled allowed him to seamlessly transition to a role in the NBA. Hart is more crash and dash in my opinion. Hart is a better scorer, but not as reliable in the other areas.

KqWIN · Post #940 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:17 am

He's well out of our range now, but I'm warming up to Luke Kennard. The questions are there about his defense, but I think he will find a way to score at the next level. He's a really nice offensive talent who could develop into a McCollum type player down the line. Think he might be a better player than Monk.