Defense!

Post #1 » by **StocktonShorts** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:35 pm

With the addition of Harris and Favors I think the Jazz just boosted the defensive potential of this team. There are still some defensive weak points (Miles, Jefferson's help defense), but nothing that I don't think you can cover up with good defensive effort and/or coaching. In other words, I think they should have the personnel moving forward to be a GOOD defensive team.

We discussed this elsewhere, but I'd really like to see the Jazz re-evaluate their defensive schemes/philosophy and look at bringing in an assistant coach who might have a fresh perspective.

king everything · Post #2 » by **king everything** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:39 pm

Favors has to figure out how to stay on the floor to help the D. I think Harris is a defensive wash with Deron personally. Deron wasn't all defensive- but he wasnt a Steve Nash stick in the mud either.

I don't see how this improves our D.

CarrKeefe · Post #3 » by **CarrKeefe** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:54 pm

While Deron has the body and strength to have his way with a lot of the smaller PG's in the leage on offense, I definitely saw a lot of the other point guards turn the tables on him and use their speed to blow right by him and go to the basket. I think Devin's speed will help us out defensively, but no question will we miss Deron's big body.

Jampod · Post #4 » by **Jampod** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:19 pm

I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league. I haven't paid much attention to Harris' game but I can't imagine him being any more valuable than Deron on the defensive end.

Post #5 » by **StocktonShorts** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:28 pm

Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league.

Really?

CarrKeefe · Post #6 » by **CarrKeefe** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:29 pm

Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league.

LOL.

The59Sound · Post #7 » by **The59Sound** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:47 pm

CarrKeefe wrote:
Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league.

LOL.

+ A dozen. Harris is a better defender, no doubt.

idajazz · Post #8 » by **idajazz** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:02 pm

Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league. I haven't paid much attention to Harris' game but I can't imagine him being any more valuable than Deron on the defensive end.

What Deron were you watching?
It used to drive me nuts watching Parker, Nash, Harris, Westbrook, Rose, Lawson, CmeP, Rondo Baron, Felton, Jennings, Wall, Curry, blow by him and get a lay up.

yonexpro1 · Post #9 » by **yonexpro1** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:05 pm

The59Sound wrote:
CarrKeefe wrote:
Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league.

LOL.

+ A dozen. Harris is a better defender, no doubt.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH Deron was a decent defender on Broy and Manu. But the past 2 months he was getting burnt by everybody.

I remember the OKC game and westbrook was literally giving deron the three goggles and the pistols.

Jampod · Post #10 » by **Jampod** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:12 pm

idajazz wrote:
Jampod wrote:I think Deron is probably one of the best PG defenders in the league. I haven't paid much attention to Harris' game but I can't imagine him being any more valuable than Deron on the defensive end.

What Deron were you watching?
It used to drive me nuts watching Parker Nash, Harris, Westbrook, Rose, Lawson..... blow by him and get a lay up.

Alright. I'll agree with that. I'll rephrase what i said and say he was one of the better defensive point guards. Parker, Westbrook,Rose and maybe Harris are all going to get to the hole no matter what team they are facing. Its not like he was terrible.

schneiderjazz · Post #11 » by **schneiderjazz** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:02 am

I agree that Deron wasn't a horribel defender. He was great guarding SGs and even fast small PG at times. He did lock down CP3 a few times. But there were a lot of games where he's get eaten alive. The last OKC game comes to mind. Westbrook did whatever he wanted to.

erudite23 · Post #12 » by **erudite23** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:36 am

Deron's biggest weakness was lateral quickness and he had a hard time staying in front of quicker PGs (and how many don't?) but I wouldn't mock his defense by any means. He was solid, above average, but not anything to brag about.

Devin Harris has, at times, been among the top 4 or 5 defensive PGs in the game. When he was traded from Dallas, he lost the stomach for it. Have to hope he can get it back.

Ming Kong! · Post #13 » by **Ming Kong!** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:45 am

The PG position is also tough given every night you're covering a good offensive player. There are just so many great PGs right now. I don't think anybody can guard Westbrook right now. That guy is just a freak.

Luigi · Post #14 » by **Luigi** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:58 am

Williams was a fantastic defender in college. Harris was a great defender in Dallas.

In recent years, both of them have failed to take defense as seriously as they should. They both like to score, and I suspect they save a little for the other end of the floor.

Point guard defense is intriguing to me. The two primary ball handlers are trying to wear one another down so that they can set the terms of the game. If you can pressure the ball well at the point or limit options, you can disrupt a lot of the opponent's offense. A point guard who doesn't have to give you his back (and give up half the floor), but can stay faced up, can keep more options open to execute the offense. It's also an energy exchange game. You wear down your defender with dribble penetration to keep them on you and out of the passing lanes, and with great passes to keep them off you so you can get to the paint. Or, you can pester them with ball pressure and force the ball out of their hands, or make them work hard enough on the other side that they don't have the speed or strength to get into the paint on you (depending on their conditioning). Who decides whether it will be a track meet or a slugging match? There's a ton going on there, and certain players know how to win the end match. Harris at least has the tools on both ends to compete with the many star level points of the future (Williams, Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Wall, Rondo, Curry) and make them work.

Anyway, I think Harris has the better defensive tools right now. He's a bit longer and trimmer. Williams is stronger, but he will probably move to shooting guard one day. From the 1 position, I think a motivated Harris is probably a better defender than Williams. He's no Rondo, but I expect him to be an upgrade over Williams defensively.

Favors is going to be a defensive player, especially as he puts on more weight. Jefferson and Favors are going to play tall in the lane on both ends of the floor, which is something I have been wanting since the days of Malone and Ostertag. I feel like our paint might finally be safe against elite bigs, and maybe even against driving guards. We can run two guys with 9'2" standing reaches and not worry about them getting stuck defending the pick and roll or ruining the offensive flow. Plus, Favors should makeup for Boozer's lost rebounding, and how do you keep Millsap and Favors off the offensive glass?

I expect an impressive defense out of this roster going into the future. But there are some big question marks:

How will Harris manage as he gets a bit older (He's 27)? And what role will he take?
-Will Bell ever return to form?
-Can Hayward do more than what defensive fundamentals get him?
-Can Evans earn playing time? We know he can play help-side D.
-Can we bring back AK?
-How long will it take Favors to earn 30+ minutes?
-Can Fes cork the middle without putting people on the line? Can we resign him?
-Can Elson play like he did early this season again? He's long and very mobile.

If half of those questions get good enough answers, we could be an elite defensive team soon. Let's hope it works out.

Post #15 » by **StocktonShorts** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:36 pm

Thanks for bringing us back on topic, Luigi. For some reason every thread seems to devolve into a debate about Deron Williams these days.

I agree with your assessment. I think the major thing that's missing is a defensive-minded assistant coach. Hopefully Ty looks for someone this off-season.

Also, can someone explain why the Jazz force guards to the middle of the floor? I'm no basketball strategist, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think you'd want to force someone baseline where their options are limited rather than force them to the middle of the floor where they can pass to any one of their teammates.

Is this a relic of the Mark Eaton/Greg Ostertag days (almost said 'era' there) where you had a shot-blocking defensive center to clog the middle?

Luigi · Post #16 » by **Luigi** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:58 pm

I'm going to start watching for where the perimeter players force their man. Sloan's defense did always use a cork in the paint, but maybe we're just getting beat. I mean, you can funnel players to the middle of the floor to meet Bill Russell (as they were told to do), and Al has been blocking shots . . . but that's just not going to work.

yonexpro1 · Post #17 » by **yonexpro1** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:01 pm

HappyProle wrote:Thanks for bringing us back on topic, Luigi. For some reason every thread seems to devolve into a debate about Deron Williams these days.

I agree with your assessment. I think the major thing that's missing is a defensive-minded assistant coach. Hopefully Ty looks for someone this off-season.

Also, can someone explain why the Jazz force guards to the middle of the floor? I'm no basketball strategist, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think you'd want to force someone baseline where their options are limited rather than force them to the middle of the floor where they can pass to any one of their teammates.

Is this a relic of the Mark Eaton/Greg Ostertag days (almost said 'era' there) where you had a shot-blocking defensive center to clog the middle?

I think they force middle because it is so easy to get near the rim driving baseline. I know people say use he baseline as an extra defender, but when driving baseline refs tend to call pushing fouls when they step out of bounds, also guy with the ball gets near the rim can use the rim for protection against our bigs( reverse layup for example) and believe it or not I find it easier to pass out when driving baseline, you have the whole defense looking at you under the rim and that opens space for the bigs to move toward the front of the rim for an easy dump off.

Thats just my take on why they do it.

At least middle of floor you can get help from everyone.

Soul Patch · Post #18 » by **Soul Patch** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:14 pm

Favors, the 19 year old rookie, guards the pick n roll better than any of our other bigs. Elson before he got injured might have been better.

Post #19 » by **StocktonShorts** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:21 pm

yonexpro1 wrote:...you have the whole defense looking at you under the rim and that opens space for the bigs to move toward the front of the rim for an easy dump off.

Thats just my take on why they do it.

At least middle of floor you can get help from everyone.

And I often see all five Jazz men with their heads turned toward the guy in the paint, shading a couple steps toward him to "help". Is it any wonder they frequently give up open threes?

My observations are purely anecdotal -- forcing middle could be the best solution for this team -- but it does seem a plausible explanation for why teams get such open looks from three against the Jazz.

OC Jazzfan · Post #20 » by **OC Jazzfan** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:15 am

HappyProle wrote:And I often see all five Jazz men with their heads turned toward the guy in the paint, shading a couple steps toward him to "help". Is it any wonder they frequently give up open threes?

My observations are purely anecdotal -- forcing middle could be the best solution for this team -- but it does seem a plausible explanation for why teams get such open looks from three against the Jazz.

That's pretty much what I see. They force the driving player to the middle, then the entire team sags in far enough to closely watch, but not hinder, the driving player who either a) goes in for a layup without getting knocked on his ass or b) kicks the ball out to one of his many (now completely wide open) teamates for an uncontested jumper. In a nutshell that's the defense of the current Jazz team.