Anyone else think Corbin won't make it?

BarneyGumble · Post #1 » by **BarneyGumble** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 4:09 pm

I'm not sold on Corbin at any level. Sign me up for the "bring on John Stockton" bandwagon.

What do you guys think?

seejaydeja · Post #2 » by **seejaydeja** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 4:17 pm

i think he'll be fine. definitely got trial by fire so i feel bad for him. let him get an offseason under his belt first.

JDubJazz · Post #3 » by **JDubJazz** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 4:41 pm

He's in a terrible position, and first time head coaches RARELY stick. I think the Jazz will stick with him for at least two years, but I doubt he'll be the long-term answer. If he has any chance of succeeding, though, he has got to hire a couple of experienced assistants to help him out. Our coaching staff is really pathetic right now, because there is just no experience on the bench. They might need to pay some money and go get a Mike Brown or Mark Iavaroni to be Corbin's lead assistant. Thats not a knock on Hornacek and Scotty, its just the way the world works.

BarneyGumble · Post #4 » by **BarneyGumble** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 4:44 pm

I wish Scotty would get back into the GM chair. I am sick of O'Connor, and our best years were during the Layden front office regime.

laytonjazzfan · Post #5 » by **laytonjazzfan** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:25 pm

I had always hoped that Sloan would retire before Corbin was snagged up be somebody else. He has been put in a very tough situation and I will pass judgement until next year. He can get a offseason under his belt which will give him some time to work things out.

retiredcoach · Post #6 » by **retiredcoach** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:26 pm

by DWill_daShizzle on Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:44 am
I wish Scotty would get back into the GM chair. I am sick of O'Connor, and our best years were during the Layden front office regime.

Layden was a terrible GM. The Jazz would never consider bringing him back in that role. If it weren't for LHM and the Frank relationship, S. Layden wouldn't have been hired back at all.

Personally I like KOC. I think he's made some good moves. LHM, Inc. missed the boat on not signing Matthews but I don't think KOC had a lot to do with that one. Depending on what happens with AK, the Jazz have a shot a being a good team next year. The house isn't falling down. Don't blame KOC for LHM, Inc's issues. He doesn't get to make the final decisions.

by JDubJazz on Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:41 am
They might need to pay some money and go get a Mike Brown or Mark Iavaroni to be Corbin's lead assistant. Thats not a knock on Hornacek and Scotty, its just the way the world works.

This is true. The problem is I don't think the Jazz will spend the money on guys of this caliber. They are on the high end of the scale in the $750K to $1 mil.

Coaching is only a small portion of the issues facing the Jazz. Corbin is lucky in some ways. He's in a mess right now, but the learning environment is great.

The draft picks and possible off season moves are far more important than Corbin's coaching. The Jazz need a big tough defensive center and a SG that is consistent in scoring. Consistency is really the factor. Ten points a night consistently is better than an average of 14 when it 2 one day and 22 the next.

Corbin will be fine if the Jazz give him a couple of more good players. I really like Millsap, Jefferson, Harris, Favors and Hayward. If AK comes back, there's a solid 6 guys. Add some bench and an established SG and the Jazz are back in business. If AK doesn't resign, things get more complicated.

kamazilla · Post #7 » by **kamazilla** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:42 pm

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Scotty is a more capable or connected GM than O'Connor is out of touch with reality. Laden was in a situation with the Knicks wherein he had unlimited resources at his disposal to build a winning team and failed miserably in the process, to the point that the level of infamy he achieved in Knicks management lore will only ever be exceeded by Isaiah Thomas.

O'Connor is a first rate GM, as evidenced by his deft handling of the financial necessity to hemorrhage so many player assets over the past year, emerging from the process in an even better position to build a contending team. Who the hell else has done that in the span of 14 months?!

One must realize the constraints levied on KOC by ownership, not to mention the influence Sloan had on personnel moves. I'm not endorsing his 1st round drafting history, but I doubt he was free to call the shots entirely on his own. Perhaps Laden could be useful in an expanded role in the draft selection process.

Regarding Corbin-- I think he's a little shellshocked right now and is extremely hesitant to put his own mark on the team. It might be more appropriate to examine his level of success this time next year.

Post #8 » by **StocktonShorts** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:49 pm

DWill_daShizzle wrote:I wish Scotty would get back into the GM chair. I am sick of O'Connor, and our best years were during the Layden front office regime.

BarneyGumble · Post #9 » by **BarneyGumble** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 6:05 pm

I think you guys are dumping too harshly on the guy who was the GM of our Finals teams and made the trade for Hornacek. What made Scott Layden any worse than O'Connor?

Also, I agree Layden sucked in NYC. But that's because he signed all the old Jazz players! lol. NYC is much different than SLC and Layden tried to run NYC like it was SLC.

I just want to know why the consensus around here is so negative on Layden? Someone please educate me.....

HolyToledo · Post #10 » by **HolyToledo** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 6:42 pm

The one thing I have been shocked by Corbin is the fact he looks scared and not sure of himself. I thought he would see this as an opportunity and go for it. His lack of confidence is clearly seen in every interview he does and I am sure it shows itself in practice and time outs. Im surprised Corbin is not ready for the job after years as an assistant coach under Sloan. Corbin has never been a head coach at any level and it clearly shows!

retiredcoach · Post #11 » by **retiredcoach** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 7:30 pm

Trying to judge Corbin this year is a complete waste of time.

He'll be 80% of the head coach he is going to be next year, and by the end of the 2nd year he'll be 97% of the head coach he is going to be.

Coaches just don't make that much difference, especially in the pros. In college it's a bit different because college coaching is about teaching, recruiting and knowing the opponents. The pros don't do much teaching, no recruiting and don't have to scout the opponents. They primarily have to manage player assets. They have to match offensive and defensive schemes to the players they have. In the games they have to determine match-ups and rotations.

No matter what a pro coach does, if they lose a game the fans second guess timeouts, rotations and everything else under the sun.

At the end of next season, the real coaching issues will be on the table, if there are any. I think Corbin is going to be a break even coach like Sloan. He won't add to or subtract from the net number of wins and losses a year. Only 10% of NBA coaches are a net positive and about 30% of them are a net negatives. If Corbin is a net negative, then it's time to look for a replacement. Otherwise, he's doing fine.

Post #12 » by **jazzfan1971** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 8:02 pm

I'm not really seeing coaching problems with our losses. I'm seeing a talent deficit.

You watch out opponents, any opponent, and they almost always seem to have better shooters. I think that's the main problem right now. Not coaching. I mean we have guys that can shoot the 3, just not guys that can make the 3. I think we really need a dynamic SG or SF or both to start winning at a better clip. Looks like we'll have 2 lotto picks this offseason, maybe we can find an answer or two.

At this point I have no problem with Ty, other than continuing to start Bell. But, fans of losing teams always disgagree about their coach starting a vet when a young guy is on the bench. This is nothing new to the league. And I'm not sure but I think we're on the hook for 2 more years of Bell. Hopefully that 3rd year is team option...

Fido · Post #13 » by **Fido** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 10:39 pm

DWill_daShizzle wrote:I think you guys are dumping too harshly on the guy who was the GM of our Finals teams and made the trade for Hornacek. What made Scott Layden any worse than O'Connor?

All you have to do is check out his performance as GM with the Knicks--both in terms of draft picks and trades. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary.

BarneyGumble · Post #14 » by **BarneyGumble** » Tue Mar 8, 2011 11:23 pm

Fido wrote:
DWill_daShizzle wrote:I think you guys are dumping too harshly on the guy who was the GM of our Finals teams and made the trade for Hornacek. What made Scott Layden any worse than O'Connor?

All you have to do is check out his performance as GM with the Knicks--both in terms of draft picks and trades. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary.

The Knicks dont need a GM and I dont care about the Knicks. I care about the Utah Jazz...and he did a pretty decent job when he was here, hence, he got the Knicks job. He wasn't fit for the big apple, but neither were the Jazz players he signed. See my previous post.

I'm still failing to understand why he's so much worse than KOC.....

Post #15 » by **jazzfan1971** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 12:06 am

You just can't throw out his tenure at NY when evaluating him. That's just silly.

Post #16 » by **StocktonShorts** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 12:59 am

DWill_daShizzle wrote:...and he did a pretty decent job when he was here, hence, he got the Knicks job..

And he did such a horrible job with the Knicks that the best job he could land after NY was as the 3rd assistant with his old organization.

BarneyGumble · Post #17 » by **BarneyGumble** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:07 am

jazzfan1971 wrote:You just can't throw out his tenure at NY when evaluating him. That's just silly.

Really? Then why was Sloan such a good coach? His record in Chicago was terrible. Obviously, you cannot evaluate Sloan's coaching abilities and legacy if you discount his Chicago years, by your logic.

I disagree with the myopic "he sucked at NY" argument. I think we've got a guy on our bench parading around as an assistant but in reality we have more GM power on that same bench than in the FO. If you think Layden gave bad contracts away in NYC, where a bad contract is easy to absorb by the bottomless pockets of its owner.... KOC has been just as bad in how he's handled contracts and who to pay/who not to pay as Layden ever was in NYC, not to mention O'Connor's terrible record in the draft.

Consider this...KOC's Boozer mistake cost the Jazz over $60mm. SIXTY MILLION. He works Boozer out twice, passes him up for Borchardt, who is out of the league two years later when KOC signs Boozer to $70mm. Thats about $65mm more than we could have had him for!

I still haven't heard an acceptible argument for why KOC is better than Layden......

BarneyGumble · Post #18 » by **BarneyGumble** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:08 am

HappyProle wrote:
DWill_daShizzle wrote:...and he did a pretty decent job when he was here, hence, he got the Knicks job..

And he did such a horrible job with the Knicks that the best job he could land after NY was as the 3rd assistant with his old organization.

How do you feel about Sloan? Are you taking into consideration his Chicago days?

NYC-Utah is apples-oranges, my friend....

The59Sound · Post #19 » by **The59Sound** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:22 am

I don't have particularly strong feelings about Layden one way or the other, but:

Layden

Director/Vice President of Basketball Operations, Utah Jazz: 1992-1999
General Manager, New York Knicks: 1999 - 2004

Sloan

Coach, Chicago Bulls: 1979 - 1982
Coach, Utah Jazz: 1988 - 2011

Not exactly comparable situations.

BarneyGumble · Post #20 » by **BarneyGumble** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:34 am

The59Sound wrote:I don't have particularly strong feelings about Layden one way or the other, but:

Layden

Director/Vice President of Basketball Operations, Utah Jazz: 1992-1999
General Manager, New York Knicks: 1999 - 2004

Sloan

Coach, Chicago Bulls: 1979 - 1982
Coach, Utah Jazz: 1988 - 2011

Not exactly comparable situations.

He was basically running the Jazz from 1994-1999.

I think we should ask Sloan or Johnson to be GM and send O'Connor packing.....

At this time next year, Corbin...: