Jazz will pass on Jimmer, thankfully. Jaycee vs Jimmer

[Litany]

Jazz will pass on Jimmer, thankfully

[Xsy]

Carroll was born in 1983, making him 28 years old.

No thanks.

[Xsy]

Or wait, are you using this as a way to say "If they passed then, they'll pass now."

Because that's even more ridiculous of a statement.

[babyjax13]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do, but Jimmer is no Jaycee Carrol. He's got a lot broader range of skills, has played against better competition and been more successful against that competition (and don't try to argue supporting cast, Jimmer's is, and has been, terrible.

[Litany]

Or wait, are you using this as a way to say "If they passed then, they'll pass now."

Because that's even more ridiculous of a statement.

Just saying, Jaycee had similar stats (better in some key areas) and he went undrafted. Jimmer is hype. Jazz pass. That was my point.

[Litany]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do, but Jimmer is no Jaycee Carrol. He's got a lot broader range of skills, has played against better competition and been more successful against that competition (and don't try to argue supporting cast, Jimmer's is, and has been, terrible.

What broader range of skills is that? I assume you haven't watched Jaycee more than a few highlight videos. Their games are very similar and Jaycee had better %'s in some key areas. I had to just laugh at the competition argument.

I'm also confused at how the supporting cast argument helps Jimmers case?

[HammerDunk]

Explain why the competition argument isn't a valid argument? It's pretty clear that the competition Jimmer played this year alone was much better than anything Jaycee ever sniffed. Add in post season success that he was nearly single-handedly accountable for, and your argument is done.

It's blatantly obvious, due to you arguing tooth and nail against Jimmer and even starting a redundant thread about him, that you are extremely jealous of what Jimmer was able to do and all the attention he got and CONTINUES to get. Dude, I'm sorry, but Jaycee wasn't even considered for the Wooden award, much less the runaway winner. Jimmer did crazy things on much bigger stages than the Aggies have ever even played on.

[babyjax13]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do, but Jimmer is no Jaycee Carrol. He's got a lot broader range of skills, has played against better competition and been more successful against that competition (and don't try to argue supporting cast, Jimmer's is, and has been, terrible.

What broader range of skills is that? I assume you haven't watched Jaycee more than a few highlight videos. Their games are very similar and Jaycee had better %'s in some key areas. I had to just laugh at the competition argument.

I'm also confused at how the supporting cast argument helps Jimmers case?

I've already said pretty much all I have to say in the stickied draft thread, this is just a quote from it.

His change of direction with and without the ball, shiftiness, he's a lot faster than most of the opposing players he faces in college (whether or not this transfers remains to be seen) and he is a good finisher with his strength. He has the makings of a very good offensive player, how good remains to be seen. Is he a starter? Who knows. That's part of the intrigue. Is he a good bench guard a la Barbosa and Lou Williams? Maybe. Is he a flop? If he turns into Eddie House v2.0 where he is drafted he is, but I think he's got a lot more potential than that.

[Litany]

Explain why the competition argument isn't a valid argument? It's pretty clear that the competition Jimmer played this year alone was much better than anything Jaycee ever sniffed. Add in post season success that he was nearly single-handedly accountable for, and your argument is done.

It's blatantly obvious, due to you arguing tooth and nail against Jimmer and even starting a redundant thread about him, that you are extremely jealous of what Jimmer was able to do and all the attention he got and CONTINUES to get. Dude, I'm sorry, but Jaycee wasn't even considered for the Wooden award, much less the runaway winner. Jimmer did crazy things on much bigger stages than the Aggies have ever even played on.

Thanks for the daily laugh Jimmer-Homer. Now I am jealous of Jimmer...yawn. It just gets better and better. Read below as I posted in another thread:

I actually cheer for all four of the main Utah college basketball programs (BYU, Utah, Utah-State, & Weber State). My family consists of graduates from all four schools. I'm not "butt-hurt" about anything.

My point was that Jaycee had similar stats (better in some key areas) than Jimmer and he went undrafted. Jimmer is all about the hype. I think its lunacy to use any lotto pick on Jimmer.

I don't think it is any GM's dream to use a lottery pick on nothing but a future bench player. To me, that is what late first round, second round picks are for.

Sure sometimes the picks in the lottery don't work out, but when Jimmer's ceiling is nothing more than a bench player, I say pass.

I would rather use it on someone that fills a need for the team and has potential to be something more.

I knew Jimmer-Homers would use the "competition" argument when I showed the comparison between Jaycee and Jimmer. Yet if someone were to find a college player that had similar stats to Jimmer and played against better competition, the Jimmer-Homers would have no problem with the comparison, and make some kind of excuse about why it is okay to compare Jimmer to the player who had better competition. So predictable.

So now I have showed more facts and statistics to back up my argument and Jimmer-Homers have nothing to say but "he wasn't asked to play defense" "he doesn't get credit for his athleticism" "he is an assassin."

Do you have facts to back up your argument that Jimmer's competition was superior to Jaycee's? I doubt it.

I am a fan of the Jazz and of the four college teams. I just don't want Jimmer on this team. He doesn't help us get better and I see other players available at 12 that could do that. That is my problem with drafting him.

[HammerDunk]

OK, show me someone with similar stats to Jimmer that played better competition.

I see that Jaycee's top scoring effort was 44 against New Mexico St. NMS...

Jimmer scored 43 against top 10 ranked San Diego State.

[Litany]

OK, show me someone with similar stats to Jimmer that played better competition.

I see that Jaycee's top scoring effort was 44 against New Mexico St. NMS...

Jimmer scored 43 against top 10 ranked San Diego State.

My argument is that they have similar games and they had similar stats and Jaycee went undrafted. Jimmer may be the better player, but I think the gap between a lottery pick and an undrafted player should be noticeable in stats, intangibles, and potential.

Jimmer's stats are the same as Jaycee's, his intangibles are the same (they have very similar games) and Jimmer's potential is nothing more than a good bench player, thats his ceiling. That is my problem with using a lottery pick on him. If Jazz had a late first rounder to use, maybe use it on him.

I just hate the though of passing on a SF that could be great and help our team to get a player that currently has hype and could sell an extra jersey.

[HammerDunk]

Jimmer also scored 52 in a conference championship game and carried his team to the sweet sixteen averaging well over 30 pts for the dance.

The Aggies lost in the first round on the NIT Jaycee's JR and SR seasons, where he scored a meager 15 points his SR year.

Jimmer was the PG of the team, Carroll most often was not, often taking his 3 pointers from the corners where it was a shorter shot, rather than pulling up from NBA range. He wouldn't be caught dead in Jimmer's range. He hardly ever had to beat double teams. He didn't have a good crossover like Jimmer and relied more on slashing to the hoop on passes for layups than beating his man off the dribble. Jaycee had better mid-range game than Jimmer, but didn't take as much of a beating at the hoop, which are evident in his paltry free throw numbers compared to Jimmers.

Two completely different guys on two completely different teams.

[Litany]

Jimmer also scored 52 in a conference championship game and carried his team to the sweet sixteen averaging well over 30 pts for the dance.

The Aggies lost in the first round on the NIT Jaycee's JR and SR seasons, where he scored a meager 20 points his SR year.

Jimmer was the PG of the team, Carroll most often was not, often taking his 3 pointers from the corners where it was a shorter shot, rather than pulling up from NBA range. He wouldn't be caught dead in Jimmer's range. He hardly ever had to beat double teams. He didn't have a good crossover like Jimmer and relied more on slashing to the hoop on passes for layups than beating his man off the dribble. Jaycee had better mid-range game than Jimmer, but didn't take as much of a beating at the hoop, which are evident in his paltry free throw numbers compared to Jimmers.

Two completely different guys on two completely different teams.

So the only players that Jimmer can be compared to are ones who have become successful NBA players. Got it, thanks.

[HammerDunk]

Nope, just saying that saying he and Jaycee are the same exact player is ridiculous and wrong. That is all.

[Tapoona]

Here is why the Jazz might pick Jimmer with the 12th pick: my wife hates the Jazz even though I love them. She could care less about Utah vs. BYU. But she knows Jimmer and thinks he is cool. She said she would pay $ to go see Jimmer play. The Jazz organization would pick Jimmer as a marketing ploy to bring in more fans who want to see The Jimmer who would otherwise not care about the Utah Jazz. Therefore the Jazz would make cash money. Sad, I know, but a possibility in my eyes.

[Litany]

Nope, just saying that saying he and Jaycee are the same exact player is ridiculous and wrong. That is all.

I said they have very similar games. They are the same size, shoot similar %, play the same position, and have similar moves. It isn't ridiculous or wrong to say they are similar players.

I call you a homer because no matter what statistic or fact is in your face that might make Jimmer look bad you look for the way out of it, no matter how far you have to reach.

[Litany]

Here is why the Jazz might pick Jimmer with the 12th pick: my wife hates the Jazz even though I love them. She could care less about Utah vs. BYU. But she knows Jimmer and thinks he is cool. She said she would pay $ to go see Jimmer play. The Jazz organization would pick Jimmer as a marketing ploy to bring in more fans who want to see The Jimmer who would otherwise not care about the Utah Jazz. Therefore the Jazz would make cash money. Sad, I know, but a possibility in my eyes.

I've heard this argument everywhere which makes me glad none of those people have decision making power.

1. Those fans will fade after a year if Jimmer does miserably in the NBA.

2. Jazz aren't struggling to put people in seats as they averaged the 7th in the NBA in average attendance this year even though the year wasn't great for the team.

3. Jazz were 2nd in the league in tv ratings so they aren't struggling there either. These ratings will help them maintain their sponsors which is important.

4. Jazz are part of the 30% of teams that have consistently had more than 10,000 season ticket holders.

5. Winning puts people in seats too.

6. Jazz have needs in other positions and objective Jazz fans will be happy to see the Jazz use the pick on a player that fills a need instead of hype and jersey sales.

7. Jazz fans that see them drafting Jimmer as a marketing ploy will be pissed so what they gain in someone like your wife supporting them will be lost on them.

8. Jazz wont draft him.

[HammerDunk]

Nope, just saying that saying he and Jaycee are the same exact player is ridiculous and wrong. That is all.

I said they have very similar games. They are the same size, shoot similar %, play the same position, and have similar moves. It isn't ridiculous or wrong to say they are similar players.

I call you a homer because no matter what statistic or fact is in your face that might make Jimmer look bad you look for the way out of it, no matter how far you have to reach.

Once again, Jimmer has a killer crossover, shoots 3s from NBA range, uses hesitation and speed changes to get open looks or fouls going to the hoop, and had the ball in his hands 80% of the time.

Jaycee was a spot up combo guard that primarily shot from the corners and sides, cut off the ball for passes and easy layups, got to the free throw line considerably less (about half as much), and was usually not running point. He also had better mid-range game than Jimmer.

Different players, different moves, different translation to the NBA.

[Litany]

Nope, just saying that saying he and Jaycee are the same exact player is ridiculous and wrong. That is all.

I said they have very similar games. They are the same size, shoot similar %, play the same position, and have similar moves. It isn't ridiculous or wrong to say they are similar players.

I call you a homer because no matter what statistic or fact is in your face that might make Jimmer look bad you look for the way out of it, no matter how far you have to reach.

Once again, Jimmer has a killer crossover, shoots 3s from NBA range, uses hesitation and speed changes to get open looks or fouls going to the hoop, and had the ball in his hands 80% of the time.

Jaycee was a spot up combo guard that primarily shot from the corners and sides, cut off the ball for passes and easy layups, got to the free throw line considerably less (about half as much), and was usually not running point. He also had better mid-range game than Jimmer.

Different players, different moves, different translation to the NBA.

Jaycee created his own shot plenty of the time as well. Jaycee had a better % from the 3-point line. He also shot plenty of free-throws as well. An example is a high scoring game he had where he shot 15-15 from the free-throw line which blows a hole in your argument that he doesn't drive to the rim and get fouled.

DraftExpress comments on Jimmer:

- Defense: For Fredette, the biggest concern for scouts is on the defensive end, and rightfully so, since playing defense is his biggest weakness.

Fredette's average, at best, athletic ability really hurts him on this end as his poor lateral quickness allows him to get beat by quicker ball handlers. Despite not having the tools to play tough defense, the most worrying thing might be his mindset on the defensive end. Fredette almost seems disinterested defensively, and this leads to poor help and poor positioning off of the basketball. Even worse, when he does get beaten by his man with the ball, he tends to give up instead of trying to recover, hoping that his help can get the job done.

- Finishing At The Rim: Despite showing a nice mid-range game that should translate to the NBA well, Fredette could have trouble finishing in the paint at the next level. While he might be crafty enough to finish over his man, he has struggled at times finishing over help defenders.

Fredette doesn't always have the athletic ability to finish with help coming, so he is forced into double-clutched, circus-style lay-up attempts. This puts the basketball on a tee for the help defense to block it, and if he does get it over the help, there is a small chance the ball actually goes in.

DraftExpress comments on Jaycee:

A gifted shooter who is lights out in catch and shoot situations who can make an impact running off of screens in half court sets and is not afraid to pull the trigger when he has space in transition, Carroll's jumper features a quick release and textbook form. Undersized for a shooting guard at 6’2 and lacking much in the way of point guard skills (he’s averaging nearly three times as many turnovers as assists), Carroll can score from essentially anywhere on the floor. Displaying a very quick first step and showing a knack for hitting shots off the bounce, Carroll’s jump shot is a constant threat. In addition to his shooting ability, Carroll displays some finishing ability, and does a good job picking and choosing his spots, but often struggles around the rim against NBA-level competition. Lacking the leaping and size to be a good finisher on the interior, Carroll’s athleticism is more conducive to playing a Rip Hamilton-esqe role, where he can use his quickness to create openings for his jump shot.

They cite concerns about athleticism for both, lacking the skills to be point guards in the NBA (both have high turnover rates). They talk about Jaycee having a quick first step. They talk about their good jump-shots. They talk about their issues on the defensive end. They talk about the concern around their ability to finish against NBA-level competition.

Looks pretty similar to me. They are good jump-shooters, poor defenders, would struggle finishing against NBA-level comp, both are a concern at the PG position because of being turnover prone, lack athleticism.

They aren't the exact same player, but I reiterate, they are similar players. You are just making observations with Jimmer-colored glasses and have no problem reaching to defend your boy.

I don't really give a crap if he can hit a 3-pointer here and there if he gives up points to his man every time on the other side of the floor. It's the same problem I have with Millsap starting at the 4. He can score, but he gives those same points up at the other end. What good does that do us?

If I were the other team I would just go at him every time he was in. He can't just rely on his teammates to bail him out every time and according to every analysts he lacks the lateral quickness to stay in front of his man.

You do realize this is basketball right? Players have to play on both sides of the floor. It isn't football where you play offense or defense. You can't just sub a player out each possession. Like it or not, it is an issue and a major issue if you are considering drafting him in the lottery.

[Litany]

In before you use the first line of the Jaycee Carroll analysis that says he can catch and shoot to try and somehow paint this picture that he is nothing but a spot up shooter.

I anticipate that you will conveniently ignore the part that says:

Carroll can score from essentially anywhere on the floor. Displaying a very quick first step and showing a knack for hitting shots off the bounce

Concerns about Fredette finishing:

Fredette doesn't always have the athletic ability to finish with help coming, so he is forced into double-clutched, circus-style lay-up attempts. This puts the basketball on a tee for the help defense to block it, and if he does get it over the help, there is a small chance the ball actually goes in.

Concerns about Carrolls finishing:

In addition to his shooting ability, Carroll displays some finishing ability, and does a good job picking and choosing his spots, but often struggles around the rim against NBA-level competition