RealGM

Brandon Knight shot 42% and does not solve the poor outside shooting for the Jazz. He had 4 assists and 3 turnovers a game. Not a point guard.

Kemba Walker was much better in the assists department at 4.5 to 2.3 turnovers. However, in the tournament games I watched he often played the shooting guard position on offense. If a Hall of Fame college coach doesn't want him running his team, why would we?

If we get Kanter at #3, we help our team rebounding, which was not up to Jazz standards last year.

If we get Williams, he plays small forward so Millsap can back up Jefferson and Favors. Williams was very good on 3 point FG# last year, another Jazz weakness.

Conclusion, Kanter helps rebounding weakness, Williams 3 point shooting.

Take Jimmer at #12. Watching his highlight film he never missed a shot! Ok, just kidding. Seriously, the guy is a great outside shooter. That opens things up inside for the big guys. Knight and Walker don't come close to Jimmer shooting the ball. In addition, at the end of a close game, Jimmer takes the inbounds pass and goes to the foul line after the intentional foul. Just like Hornacek used to do.

superd wrote:Brandon Knight shot 42% and does not solve the poor outside shooting for the Jazz. He had 4 assists and 3 turnovers a game. Not a point guard.

Kemba Walker was much better in the assists department at 4.5 to 2.3 turnovers. However, in the tournament games I watched he often played the shooting guard position on offense. If a Hall of Fame college coach doesn't want him running his team, why would we?

If we get Kanter at #3, we help our team rebounding, which was not up to Jazz standards last year.

If we get Williams, he plays small forward so Millsap can back up Jefferson and Favors. Williams was very good on 3 point FG# last year, another Jazz weakness.

Conclusion, Kanter helps rebounding weakness, Williams 3 point shooting.

Take Jimmer at #12. Watching his highlight film he never missed a shot! Ok, just kidding. Seriously, the guy is a great outside shooter. That opens things up inside for the big guys. Knight and Walker don't come close to Jimmer shooting the ball. In addition, at the end of a close game, Jimmer takes the inbounds pass and goes to the foul line after the intentional foul. Just like Hornacek used to do.

Your entire post lost credibility because it is clear you want the Jazz to pass on Knight or Walker so they will Take Jimmer at #12. Bad draft strategy. You are clearly trying to paint a bleak and wrong picture of Knight.

First of all Knight had a 46.1% field goal % and a 37.7% 3-pt%. For comparison since you are implying Jimmer is a much better shooter, Jimmer had a 49.1% field goal % and a 39.6% 3-pt%.

Clearly their shooting ability is similar.

As far as Assists and turnovers, Knight had 4.2 assists and 3.2 turnovers and Jimmer had 4.2 assists and 3.4 turnovers. So your turnover prone blah blah blah just gets killed when you realize Jimmer had the same problems.

If Kanter is the BPA at #3 then the Jazz take him. But if Jazz feel Knight is they will go with him. You are clearly underselling Knight.

Something that you need to remember is that Jimmer had four years of college under his belt. He improved over the years, but many think he is close to his ceiling.

Knight on the other hand had only one year of college. It goes without saying that Knight would have likely improved everything with that much college experience.

A bit of a transparent post on your part imo.

I am not saying there is no way they pick Jimmer. Frankly it is a possibility, obviously. I still think Jazz go with these players at #3 and #12:

#3: Kanter/Williams/Knight/Walker(no thanks)

#12: Hamilton/Burks/Moteijunas/Jimmer

Here are Knights and Jimmers profiles so you know my numbers are legit instead of made up like yours.

Knight:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bra ... ight-5140/

Jimmer:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jim ... ette-5810/

Knight is also taller and has a long wingspan which I think will help him be a better defender. Jimmer was the 5th smallest player measured.

And about closing games, Knight has icy veins:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS34ZPNTF8A[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV03p2bDov4[/youtube]

Regardless of whether or not he wants us to pass on them so we can take Fredette at 12, he is right. There is absolutely no reason to reach for either of them with Kanter or Williams on the board at 3.

For the record, I have Kemba Walker ahead of Brandon Knight so I don't want him regardless of if we trade down or not.

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Regardless of whether or not he wants us to pass on them so we can take Fredette at 12, he is right. There is absolutely no reason to reach for either of them with Kanter or Williams on the board at 3.

For the record, I have Kemba Walker ahead of Brandon Knight so I don't want him regardless of if we trade down or not.

I know you are high on Jimmer too so I wont even get into that with you.

Of course if Williams is there, you take him.

But I am not sold on Kanter.

There is limited film available on him and he has knee problems. Do we want to end up like Portland? I just don't think we know enough about Kanter.

I don't think it is a reach for Knight at #3 considering everything.

I predict a Knight and Hamilton draft unless Williams is off the board.

JazzD15 wrote:

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Regardless of whether or not he wants us to pass on them so we can take Fredette at 12, he is right. There is absolutely no reason to reach for either of them with Kanter or Williams on the board at 3.

For the record, I have Kemba Walker ahead of Brandon Knight so I don't want him regardless of if we trade down or not.

I know you are high on Jimmer too so I wont even get into that with you.

Of course if Williams is there, you take him.

But I am not sold on Kanter.

There is limited film available on him and he has knee problems. Do we want to end up like Portland? I just don't think we know enough about Kanter.

I don't think it is a reach for Knight at #3 considering everything.

I predict a Knight and Hamilton draft unless Williams is off the board.

Holy crap get off of the "his knees are bad" excuse train. They have extensive physical testing before the draft to ensure the players aren't going to have any future problems for a reason. If he really had that bad of knees then he wouldn't be projected as a top 3 pick. That's an extremely poor excuse for not drafting him.

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:

JazzD15 wrote:

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Regardless of whether or not he wants us to pass on them so we can take Fredette at 12, he is right. There is absolutely no reason to reach for either of them with Kanter or Williams on the board at 3.

For the record, I have Kemba Walker ahead of Brandon Knight so I don't want him regardless of if we trade down or not.

I know you are high on Jimmer too so I wont even get into that with you.

Of course if Williams is there, you take him.

But I am not sold on Kanter.

There is limited film available on him and he has knee problems. Do we want to end up like Portland? I just don't think we know enough about Kanter.

I don't think it is a reach for Knight at #3 considering everything.

I predict a Knight and Hamilton draft unless Williams is off the board.

Holy crap get off of the "his knees are bad" excuse train. They have extensive physical testing before the draft to ensure the players aren't going to have any future problems for a reason. If he really had that bad of knees then he wouldn't be projected as a top 3 pick. That's an extremely poor excuse for not drafting him.

What was the report on Greg Oden? Pretty sure it was known he had knee problems before, where was he drafted? Oh yeah. Same thing with Roy. It was known they had knee problems.

So yes, it is something to consider.

And those aren't the only concerns people have about drafting him.

I guess I would be wasting my time arguing with you since your agenda is:

Make any PG Jazz may draft at #3 look awful and any big look like the clear choice so you can get Jimmer...

Again, transparent.

If Jazz pick Jimmer at 12 they do it because he is clearly the BPA there, and I am fine with that. But I don't think Jazz should pass on Knight and clearly you are just using talking points instead of facts to back up your argument that Knight is a chucker. Again, check %.

Knight was a freshman and has a lot of room to grow, Jimmer was a senior and is close to peaking.

Thats my opinion.

JazzD15 wrote:What was the report on Greg Oden? Pretty sure it was known he had knee problems before, where was he drafted? Oh yeah. Same thing with Roy. It was known they had knee problems.

So yes, it is something to consider.

And those aren't the only concerns people have about drafting him.

I guess I would be wasting my time arguing with you since your agenda is:

Make any PG Jazz may draft at #3 look awful and any big look like the clear choice so you can get Jimmer...

Again, transparent.

If Jazz pick Jimmer at 12 they do it because he is clearly the BPA there, and I am fine with that. But I don't think Jazz should pass on Knight and clearly you are just using talking points instead of facts to back up your argument that Knight is a chucker. Again, check %.

Knight was a freshman and has a lot of room to grow, Jimmer was a senior and is close to peaking.

Thats my opinion.

Your trolling is nearing the comical stage...

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:

JazzD15 wrote:What was the report on Greg Oden? Pretty sure it was known he had knee problems before, where was he drafted? Oh yeah. Same thing with Roy. It was known they had knee problems.

So yes, it is something to consider.

And those aren't the only concerns people have about drafting him.

I guess I would be wasting my time arguing with you since your agenda is:

Make any PG Jazz may draft at #3 look awful and any big look like the clear choice so you can get Jimmer...

Again, transparent.

If Jazz pick Jimmer at 12 they do it because he is clearly the BPA there, and I am fine with that. But I don't think Jazz should pass on Knight and clearly you are just using talking points instead of facts to back up your argument that Knight is a chucker. Again, check %.

Knight was a freshman and has a lot of room to grow, Jimmer was a senior and is close to peaking.

Thats my opinion.

Your trolling is nearing the comical stage...

I guess if by trolling you mean blowing apart your argument, then okay.

JazzD15 wrote:

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:

JazzD15 wrote:What was the report on Greg Oden? Pretty sure it was known he had knee problems before, where was he drafted? Oh yeah. Same thing with Roy. It was known they had knee problems.

So yes, it is something to consider.

And those aren't the only concerns people have about drafting him.

I guess I would be wasting my time arguing with you since your agenda is:

Make any PG Jazz may draft at #3 look awful and any big look like the clear choice so you can get Jimmer...

Again, transparent.

If Jazz pick Jimmer at 12 they do it because he is clearly the BPA there, and I am fine with that. But I don't think Jazz should pass on Knight and clearly you are just using talking points instead of facts to back up your argument that Knight is a chucker. Again, check %.

Knight was a freshman and has a lot of room to grow, Jimmer was a senior and is close to peaking.

Thats my opinion.

Your trolling is nearing the comical stage...

I guess if by trolling you mean blowing apart your argument, then okay.

Ignored. Should have done it a loooooong time ago.

On the Draft Express page I looked at overall FG%. Knight at 42, Jimmer at 45. However, my point was don't take Knight or Walker at #3.

Williams overall shooting was 59%. I too read Kanter had knee problems. I never read how bad. They solve outside shooting and rebound issues respectively with Williams good at both.

If Kanter is a health risk and Williams is gone I say trade down. Maybe #6 and 18 from Washington. Biyombo at 6 would be fine with me. He rebounds out of his area and defends. Doesn't offer much else besides that and hustle. Oh, he liked watching Karl Malone, which is a plus. He might not want to leave Utah after his rookie contract. With the 18th pick I would take Singleton if available. We could always use a good defender against guys like Kobe, Anthony, and Durant.

The post was not about point guard comparisons. I do respect Knight as a freshman stepping up to hit clutch shots in the tournament. Downside he's turnover prone, but yes, still a freshman who can improve. Walker was very good in the tourney. He also seems to be a guy who still plays strong at the end of the game. Jimmer folded his last game for whatever reason. I don't have him on a pedestal. He does shoot lights out compared to the other 2, which was my point. I doubt Knight will shoot like that 3 years from now.

Here's a question for you...if Irving is available at #3???

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote: Ignored. Should have done it a loooooong time ago.

Tell me how your argument didn't get blown apart?

You said Knight is a chucker, I showed you college stats that prove he is on par with Jimmer as a shooter and frankly he had a better 3-pt% than Jimmer did his freshman year.

People make Knight seem turnover prone, when Jimmer had more TO than Knight did.

You said that Enes knee history shouldn't be something to consider, I gave examples of players that had known injury history before being drafted and then those knee problems followed them.

Seems to me that you present an argument, if it gets blown apart you cry and reply with some emoticons and say I am trolling instead of presenting an argument.

Look, there is no secret I don't think Jimmer is the right fit here. If I am wrong I'm wrong. People have made good points about why we should take him at the #12. I have honestly softened as far as he goes tbh. Which is why if the Jazz determine he is the BPA at #12 then they take him.

But I don't see Knight the same way you do and I was presenting stats to show he is not this chucker that you are implying he is.

superd wrote:On the Draft Express page I looked at overall FG%. Knight at 42, Jimmer at 45. However, my point was don't take Knight or Walker at #3.

Williams overall shooting was 59%. I too read Kanter had knee problems. I never read how bad. They solve outside shooting and rebound issues respectively with Williams good at both.

If Kanter is a health risk and Williams is gone I say trade down. Maybe #6 and 18 from Washington. Biyombo at 6 would be fine with me. He rebounds out of his area and defends. Doesn't offer much else besides that and hustle. Oh, he liked watching Karl Malone, which is a plus. He might not want to leave Utah after his rookie contract. With the 18th pick I would take Singleton if available. We could always use a good defender against guys like Kobe, Anthony, and Durant.

The post was not about point guard comparisons. I do respect Knight as a freshman stepping up to hit clutch shots in the tournament. Downside he's turnover prone, but yes, still a freshman who can improve. Walker was very good in the tourney. He also seems to be a guy who still plays strong at the end of the game. Jimmer folded his last game for whatever reason. I don't have him on a pedestal. He does shoot lights out compared to the other 2, which was my point. I doubt Knight will shoot like that 3 years from now.

Here's a question for you...if Irving is available at #3???

I am with you on Williams. If he is there, no way you can pass, no way, if Jazz do they are nuts.

As far as Knights shooting, I looked at 2PT % and 3PT %. That is what I compared and to me they are close. Jimmer is better but Knight can clearly shoot. Also, as I mentioned in another thread, Jimmer shot 33.6 from the 3-pt line his freshman year. Knight 37.7 his freshman year. Jimmer obviously improved that, but Knight can too.

I just have concerns about Kanter. If we learn more about him then great. If he is BPA get him. I just hate that there is such limited footage and it worries me that he had a knee problem.

Kanter obviously has some great things about him including his size and ability to run the floor, he can rebound. I just like Knight a lot too.

Another thing I just thought about is that next years draft doesn't have good PGs from what I saw, so this is the year to get a good starter PG, I don't think that is Jimmer.

That's a good point about next year's draft. I hadn't thought of that. There are probably some one and done prospects at the point next year:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/basketballrecru ... o79n7VO5B4

I just know I wouldn't trade any of our picks next year as it's supposed to be a deep draft.

Yes, players improve if they work at it. Jordan certainly wasn't looked at as being so great when drafted. Karl Malone was a poor free throw shooter. Players get better with work ethic and I read Knight certainly has that. He's supposed to be pretty smart too. I only saw him play in the tournament and he wasn't afraid to shoot at crunch time.

Devin Harris was here briefly, missed games, and didn't show a whole lot. He is supposed to be pretty good when healthy, so I haven't given up on him.

Jazz weaknesses last year were rebounding, outside shooting, and defense. With the 3rd pick I think a good rebounder more important than a PG because we have Harris and Watson.

I guess we have to trust the GM. I'm sure we both will root for the Jazz no matter who they take!

superd wrote:That's a good point about next year's draft. I hadn't thought of that. There are probably some one and done prospects at the point next year:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/basketballrecru ... o79n7VO5B4

I just know I wouldn't trade any of our picks next year as it's supposed to be a deep draft.

Yes, players improve if they work at it. Jordan certainly wasn't looked at as being so great when drafted. Karl Malone was a poor free throw shooter. Players get better with work ethic and I read Knight certainly has that. He's supposed to be pretty smart too. I only saw him play in the tournament and he wasn't afraid to shoot at crunch time.

Devin Harris was here briefly, missed games, and didn't show a whole lot. He is supposed to be pretty good when healthy, so I haven't given up on him.

Jazz weaknesses last year were rebounding, outside shooting, and defense. With the 3rd pick I think a good rebounder more important than a PG because we have Harris and Watson.

I guess we have to trust the GM. I'm sure we both will root for the Jazz no matter who they take!

Yeah, good points. We do need help on all three mentioned (rebounding, outside shooting and defense).

Favors obviously helps our defense and rebounding a lot. I think Al hurts it a lot and sadly, Millsap does too which is so odd because he used to rebound pretty well (maybe most of that is because he was on the floor with mostly backup PFs).

As far as shooting, yeah we need help there, I think Hayward helps that and so could Knight. Jimmer would too if he is on the Jazz.

If we did take Kanter, our D and rebounding would obviously shoot up. Imagine Favors at the 4 and Kanter at the 5. Of course they would need time, but yes that front line would be good if Kanter is the BPA and he works out for us.

I am just stating the concerns I have for Kanter and things I like. Same with Knight.

As far as Harris, I am still unsure about him too. Didn't see a whole lot. I also didn't like finding out that he only plays in as many games a year as AK does now too.

Anyway, about the need to get a starting PG this year because there isn't one next, here is a 2012 mock from DX. Of course this can move around, but there aren't PG's that are up there (highest is 14th) which is concerning. Knight was a dominant PG in high school. I don't know what he was projected coming out of high school, but I heard on the radio it was pretty high. Can anyone confirm this?

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/

The whole point of drafting a big is for defense and rebounding. kanter is solid rebounder but like mention knees doesnt matter if you can get 15 rebounds a game if you only play half the games and site the other half. get a PG at the three and a big at the 12th. Im in for knight/willams/irving with the 3rd and biembo with the 12th. kanters another kosta with knee problems.

It's strange that some of us here tend to think that over 4 assists in college is a bad number, especially for a freshman. On a team with as few options as kentucky had, and being asked to be the leading ball handler, first option scorer, and the distributor, you shouldn't be surprised at the high TO numbers. Also he was 17 for half the season, almost a year younger than anyone he played against, and almost three years you get than kemba.

Bat wrote:It's strange that some of us here tend to think that over 4 assists in college is a bad number, especially for a freshman. On a team with as few options as kentucky had, and being asked to be the leading ball handler, first option scorer, and the distributor, you shouldn't be surprised at the high TO numbers. Also he was 17 for half the season, almost a year younger than anyone he played against, and almost three years you get than kemba.

Bat, I can't believe you keep stating he was seventeen for half the season. Look at his birthdate and do the math. He turned 19 in December and is older than many prospects in the draft, including Kanter. Please avoid spreading misinformation.

JazzD15 wrote:

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote: Ignored. Should have done it a loooooong time ago.

Tell me how your argument didn't get blown apart?

You said Knight is a chucker, I showed you college stats that prove he is on par with Jimmer as a shooter and frankly he had a better 3-pt% than Jimmer did his freshman year.

People make Knight seem turnover prone, when Jimmer had more TO than Knight did.

Good God. Do you really believe the stats illustrate the full story of their respective shooting abilities?! If so, you have truly exposed your utter ignorance of the subject of basketball in general and how your bizarre fascination with Knight clouds your vision in particular. So, he shoots like Jimmer and compares favorably to Wall as a player.
Uh-huh. Just stop. Please.

People- Knight will never, ever be a top ten PG in the league, no matter how long he plays. His overall talent level is simply not comparable to the best at the position playing now, nor those continuing to come into the league. In the best case scenario, it would take him 4- 5 years to develop to the level of effectiveness Harris is at now, after which he would demand a huge contract. Meanwhile he would be vastly overpaid as a top three pick, even on his rookie deal. Selecting him top three would just be a wasted pick, and KOC is not stupid enough to make that mistake.

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Your trolling is nearing the comical stage...

You were totally outclassed in this discussion. If anyone should be accused of trolling it is you.

kamazilla wrote:

Bat wrote:It's strange that some of us here tend to think that over 4 assists in college is a bad number, especially for a freshman. On a team with as few options as kentucky had, and being asked to be the leading ball handler, first option scorer, and the distributor, you shouldn't be surprised at the high TO numbers. Also he was 17 for half the season, almost a year younger than anyone he played against, and almost three years you get than kemba.

Bat, I can't believe you keep stating he was seventeen for half the season. Look at his birthdate and do the math. He turned 19 in December and is older than many prospects in the draft, including Kanter. Please avoid spreading misinformation.

JazzD15 wrote:

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote: Ignored. Should have done it a loooooong time ago.

Tell me how your argument didn't get blown apart?

You said Knight is a chucker, I showed you college stats that prove he is on par with Jimmer as a shooter and frankly he had a better 3-pt% than Jimmer did his freshman year.

People make Knight seem turnover prone, when Jimmer had more TO than Knight did.

Good God. Do you really believe the stats illustrate the full story of their respective shooting abilities?! If so, you have truly exposed your utter ignorance of the subject of basketball in general and how your bizarre fascination with Knight clouds your vision in particular. So, he shoots like Jimmer and compares favorably to Wall as a player.
Uh-huh. Just stop. Please.

People- Knight will never, ever be a top ten PG in the league, no matter how long he plays. His overall talent level is simply not comparable to the best at the position playing now, nor those continuing to come into the league. In the best case scenario, it would take him 4- 5 years to develop to the level of effectiveness Harris is at now, after which he would demand a huge contract. Meanwhile he would be vastly overpaid as a top three pick, even on his rookie deal. Selecting him top three would just be a wasted pick, and KOC is not stupid enough to make that mistake.

What is not shown in the stats about their shooting abilities? Are you talking about "Jimmer-range"? I saw a lot of those in the threes Knight took in college days, so that isn't it. He has a quick release, so that isn't it. What is the shooting % missing that you are talking about?

How doesn't he shoot similarly to Jimmer with those stats I showed. FYI, Jimmer had a 33% 3-PT his freshman year, while Knight posted a 37.7% 3-PT his freshman year. What am I missing?

And to me he looks like he can dribble. Watch those highlights when he takes it to the rack or crosses over to create space on those game winners and those highlights. Sure he isn't CP3 or D-Will, but he can improve that as well. I just think you are selling him short.

kamazilla wrote:Bat, I can't believe you keep stating he was seventeen for half the season. Look at his birthdate and do the math. He turned 19 in December and is older than many prospects in the draft, including Kanter. Please avoid spreading misinformation.

there are several articles, including his main article on dx that say he's only 18.