Kanter is a Bust--Trade Him While He Still Has Value

retiredcoach · Post #1 » by **retiredcoach** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:14 pm

The Kanter is a bust theme that some posters continually push really grows old with me.

Here's a very good stat comparison on Kanter done by the Doc over on SLC Dunk. Doc's been writing Jazz articles for years and he knows his way around the stat sites.

http://tinyurl.com/dyqp52p

I guess Doc gets tired of hearing it too.

I know that facts hardly ever get in the way of uneducated die hard opinions but maybe the numbers will convert a few.

Spottieottie · Post #2 » by **Spottieottie** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:56 pm

When Kanter blows up in a few years I'm going to have some solid laughs at a lot of people's expense.

I wish I could literally, physically invest my money in Kanter like a stock so that when he does blow up I would have an actual tangible reward I could show off in everyone else's face because of it.

reapaman · Post #3 » by **reapaman** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:02 pm

Well while I think Kanter will be a huge dissapointment but certainly not a bust, this argument is a failure. I mean did this guy just base his argument around rebounding? I can make a better argument for Kanter if I wanted to.

I would like to point out that reggie evans is an elite rebounder, just look at his rebounding stats minute wise .... their great. Not to mention evans has some decent defense skills and their are many guys his size getting starter minutes.

So what keeps him from getting time similar to paul millsap thoughout his career? Its because you need way more than just one skill that is elite. You need an array of skils, they don't have to be anywhere near elite level but they gotta be good enough. You have to do many things to be good in this league, not just one.

Post #4 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:15 pm

With his physical tools and skills, I can't imagine him not being an effective player at the very least. Very good rebounder , good shooting stroke and mid-range shot, size, strength and developing post moves.

He'll be alright fellas. He'll be alright.

BJSmiles · Post #5 » by **BJSmiles** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:30 pm

Nice laughable comparison of Evans to Kanter. Kanter actually has a shooters touch. He can make free throws. He may not have had amazing free throw numbers his rookie season, but he also didn't get very many trips to the line because of very limited minutes. The guy has a nice touch, I have no doubt he will develop a knock-down jumper from 14-18 feet out.

My question about him is if he will develop the post game we are hoping for. He is very strong, so that is a plus, but he is not explosive and takes way too long to gather himself. He will never be an athletic above the rim guy, but I could see him being a good low post threat. This is where I actually hope he learns a few things from Big Al, because he isn't going to be able to rely on athleticism to get his shot off, rather pump fakes and great footwork, like Al, but hopefully with more power game mixed in. It would be nice if he could get some time with the Dream as well. He will never have his speed, but learning some of his moves would be a huge plus for a slightly undersized 5.

Kanter will be good.

red4hf · Post #6 » by **red4hf** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:11 pm

This is why "writers" and "analysts" do not run successful sports teams......

BJSmiles · Post #7 » by **BJSmiles** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:21 pm

red4hf wrote:This is why "writers" and "analysts" do not run successful sports teams......

So what does that make people who post on RealGM?

Jazzfan12 · Post #8 » by **Jazzfan12** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:42 pm

Most raw big men who turn out good had elite athleticism that Kanter desperately lacks.

Per 36 stats are pretty garbage as well.

reapaman · Post #9 » by **reapaman** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:48 pm

BJSmiles wrote:Nice laughable comparison of Evans to Kanter. Kanter actually has a shooters touch. He can make free throws. He may not have had amazing free throw numbers his rookie season, but he also didn't get very many trips to the line because of very limited minutes. The guy has a nice touch, I have no doubt he will develop a knock-down jumper from 14-18 feet out.

My question about him is if he will develop the post game we are hoping for. He is very strong, so that is a plus, but he is not explosive and takes way too long to gather himself. He will never be an athletic above the rim guy, but I could see him being a good low post threat. This is where I actually hope he learns a few things from Big Al, because he isn't going to be able to rely on athleticism to get his shot off, rather pump fakes and great footwork, like Al, but hopefully with more power game mixed in. It would be nice if he could get some time with the Dream as well. He will never have his speed, but learning some of his moves would be a huge plus for a slightly undersized 5.

Kanter will be good.

Well first, you didn't read what I wrote. I said his argument was a failure because he was using rebounding alone as the reason he will not be considered a bust and I said I could come up with a better argument for him succeding than that. Wasn't comparing the two. I just don't like people critizing other people's opinion and then they either put up a weak argument or no argument at all.

Second, all of that is your opinion not fact. The fact is which I have posted many times, his shooting numbers from outside of put backs and dunks were horrible. And its even worse when you consider he had limited defensive attention and lots of wide open shots. I can see if he was put in a bad role or weird situation but it was perfect for him to shoot well, he just not ready yet. Yes he can develop but as I posted before that never happens like some of you think it does. History is your friend .... guys, use it.

Enes Kanter
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Enes%20Kanter

UTJazzFan_Echo1 · Post #10 » by **UTJazzFan_Echo1** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:34 pm

Who exactly has been saying he's going to be a bust????

I really haven't seen hardly anyone saying this....

Neon Black · Post #11 » by **Neon Black** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:48 am

Your guys are crazy. Gauging a player's future talent is always a crapshoot so I try and be cordial, but when Kanter's throwing down every night in a few years I'm going to be really unforgiving. These must be the same guys who thought Hayward "wasn't athletic" and "couldn't defend or score in the nba".

red4hf · Post #12 » by **red4hf** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:47 am

BJSmiles wrote:
red4hf wrote:This is why "writers" and "analysts" do not run successful sports teams......

So what does that make people who post on RealGM?

Fans......

Bill Laimbeer had zero athleticism and had a pretty good career....... I'll take that for Kanter, and he's got a chance to be better than Bill, since Enes actually does have some talent in addition to strength......

Spottieottie · Post #13 » by **Spottieottie** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:00 am

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Who exactly has been saying he's going to be a bust????

I really haven't seen hardly anyone saying this....

There's been a ton of people calling him a bust, especially on the General Board but also fans here like repaman and on the other Jazz forum as well

reapaman · Post #14 » by **reapaman** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:47 am

Spottieottie wrote:
UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Who exactly has been saying he's going to be a bust????

I really haven't seen hardly anyone saying this....

There's been a ton of people calling him a bust, especially on the General Board but also fans here like repaman and on the other Jazz forum as well

1) I said he will be a big dissapointment not a bust
2) General board is full of morons
3) Not everyones gotta like him, its perfectly fine to not like someone we drafted or aquired
4) I still haven't seen any rational arguments on why he will be a good player.

retiredcoach · Post #15 » by **retiredcoach** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:46 am

by reapaman on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:47 pm

1) I said he will be a big dissapointment not a bust

Now you sound like Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman. Stop parsing words. Disappointment means bust to Jazz fans. Own it.

2) General board is full of morons

Okay, that's true!

3) Not everyones gotta like him, its perfectly fine to not like someone we drafted or aquired

Agreed. But not liking him is not the same thing as he's disappointing--he's a bust!

4) I still haven't seen any rational arguments on why he will be a good player.

It doesn't matter what the evidence is you will dismiss it.

Reckless · Post #16 » by **Reckless** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:08 am

Spottieottie wrote:
UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Who exactly has been saying he's going to be a bust????

I really haven't seen hardly anyone saying this....

There's been a ton of people calling him a bust, especially on the General Board but also fans here like repaman and on the other Jazz forum as well

repaman is full of **** if you haven't noticed.

red4hf · Post #17 » by **red4hf** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:41 am

retiredcoach wrote:
by reapaman on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:47 pm

1) I said he will be a big dissapointment not a bust

Now you sound like Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman. Stop parsing words. Disappointment means bust to Jazz fans. Own it.

2) General board is full of morons

Okay, that's true!

3) Not everyones gotta like him, its perfectly fine to not like someone we drafted or aquired

Agreed. But not liking him is not the same thing as he's disappointing--he's a bust!

4) I still haven't seen any rational arguments on why he will be a good player.

It doesn't matter what the evidence is you will dismiss it.

I, personally, think there's a big difference between a "busT' and a "dissapointment".......

Kwame Brown is a bust...... Greg Oden is a bust (if only because he hasn't actually been able to play)...... Shelden Williams is a bust...... Araujo is a bust...... Luke Jackson is a bust.......

Kenyon Martin is a dissapointment as far as Number 1 overall picks go, but he's certainly not a bust......

Emeka Okafor is a dissapointment, as far a Number 2 overall picks go, but he's certainly not a bust......

Slightly off topic, but the 2000 Draft was brutal...... I mean absolutely terrible......

nghedman · Post #18 » by **nghedman** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:56 pm

There is also a big problem with all those stats.

they are based on per minutes. Lets say a player is in for 1 min and gets two dunks... he is an all star. And he only played the last minute of the game which happened to be against the other teams 2nd and 3rd unit. Unfortunately this somewhat includes Kantor. And Kwame Brown too if you didn't notice that and wonder how in the world did he get in that group. Well this is why. Per minute stats are really useless unless one can value the minutes played, as in which minutes are which.

This is why watching them play is so valueable. But for what it's worth... not bad. I still thinks he needs more time and success with that time would be invaluable. Hate to say it but I would like to see him play in the d-league. SEE him play...not banish him to the D-league. He could still very much be an all star in the NBA if he develops and learns.

retiredcoach · Post #19 » by **retiredcoach** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:11 pm

by nghedman on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:56 am
There is also a big problem with all those stats.

The only problem with stats is in the minds of the people reading them.

Hoops Addict · Post #20 » by **Hoops Addict** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Kante3r is 19 and went stright to the pros with no college.

His first year....he did not get enough playing time.

This year and next year we will see what kind of pro game he has.

I have noticed that people on other teams suggesting a trade for Kanter say he is not that good, but want to trade for him.

Is Favors a bust? His first year stats were not good. Even last year, he showed he can play well, but his offensive game is fairly weak. Still.....he got much better his 2nd year.

It is not worth it to trade a young asset at a deep discount. Who will offer enough for a trade?