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Before he takes any more minutes from Favors, Kanter, and Millsap, Jefferson needs to be out of the Jazz organization. He will never be a starter on a contending team, like it or not. He does not fit in our system at all, and all he is good for is a low post presence. We are a fast paced, high energy team that should be running and playing tough defense. Does anyone remember that game at Denver during the beginning of last season? That was Jazz basketball, and Big Al was not a part of it.
Not only would getting rid of him open up the front court, but it would also allow our back court to develop more as well. It would be a complete positive. Millsap won't need to play SF, which will let Hayward switch, allowing more minutes for Burks. I'd like to think we could get a trade exemption and a bag of chips for him. At least an expiring contract and a couple second rounders.
Does anyone here see him as a future part of this franchise? If so, I would love to hear some intelligent discourse and an alternative opinion that at least justifies why he is still on our roster.

He does not fit in our system at all

I don't know how you can say that when basically him being on the team dictates the system the Jazz play, and that almost the entire roster is built around him - including this offseason's additions of shooters to compliment his low post presence.

I also wouldn't base my argument for getting rid of a 20\10 guy who is anchoring the offense on one game last year (though I know I'm over-simplifying it).

Also, he doesn't take minutes from Milsap, who got an adequate amount, and since Al plays the C and the Jazz use Favors as a PF mostly, I would argue that Milsap is the one who is taking minutes away from Favors. As for Kanter, I do want him to play more but if he played much more it would have hurt the team. He looked lost on many offensive and defensive possessions (which is to be expected given what he been through the last few years), not to mention his offensive struggles and that he ran out of gas in the 2nd half of the season.

Not only would getting rid of him open up the front court, but it would also allow our back court to develop more as well

Letting Milsap go will also upen up the front court. Getting rid of Al will just divert more attention from the inside to the back court. Milsap doesn't command double teams. Al does. Al draws the defense to him more than Milsap.

I don't know what will happen - a lot of it depends at how much money the Jazz are willing to pay him, but I do see a scenario where Big Al is a part of the future of this franchise. Him and Favors will start, and Kanter could get 30 minutes off the bench as a sub at the C and PF. That way, no one is taking away his minutes.

Why Big Al is still on our roster? Because the Jazz thought it was more important to stay competitive and Big Al made it possible. He is Anchoring the offense, and doesn't need plays called for him or any help getting his points. Without him the Jazz would probably miss the playoffs and I guess the Millers\KOC didn't want that.

Also, he has more value than an expiring contract and a few second rounders - that price is pitiful. What is the use of an expiring contract when Big Al's contract is also expiring? It is a BIG expiring contract to boot, so it will clear more cap space. Why trade him for another expiring contract which will most likely be smaller? This is another reason why he is still on the roster - because deals like that aren't good enough for the Jazz to let him go.

So you don't think favors can play center? Also, why does it matter if Al commands double teams when he doesn't pass out of them? I can understand citing stats to an extent, but Al's points come at the expense of the system. He holds the ball for far too long and ends up getting his shot regardless of how many defenders he has on him. His inflated PER is also misleading because he plays terrible defense. Millsap has been one of the best players during the off-season and odds tell us he will improve this year too.
Saying the jazz are built around big Al is just a sad thought that I genuinely hope is not true. I can understand Kanter's limted minutes, but we could fill a spot on the roster with a big man who could play 10-15 minutes a game for the year.
Did you see the Future Power Rankings article on ESPN? It had us ranked as fourth, and admittedly, it did mention Al as a solid veteran, but paying him a 12-16 million dollar contract would be insane when we could get Paul for around 10, and save space for the young guns and solid role players. Don't think that after this season teams won't be throwing 12 million or more at Favors and a solid 6-9 contract at Hayward. They will. We need the cap space to sign not only them but Burks and Kanter the next year along with an entire roster of role players and maybe another potential star. Why throw a huge contract at Al who can only play center when we have Favors who could play both, a solid PF in Millsap, (he barely missed the AS team) and a developing big man in Kanter?

What is our front court pay grade going to look like with Al's huge contract on the books?
Al- 15 million
Favors-13 million
Kanter- 8 million
That looks to me like we would be paying 36 million to players that could all be centers. With Millsap/Favors/Kanter, our lineups could have much more diversity. Add a solid defensive specialist to come off the bench and we could play big or small as well as we want.
So this is my question: Why would we risk alienating our young players? Having Al on the team is going to take 30 minutes away from players we want to develop to be part of our contending roster.

PS If Kanter develops into the player the Jazz need him to be, he will command much more than 8 million and we could not expect to pay that much for a backup to Big Al.

So you don't think favors can play center?

I think he can, though long term I think he is more of a PF. Also, next to Big Al, it makes more sense for him to play PF.

Also, why does it matter if Al commands double teams when he doesn't pass out of them?

He was 5th overall in his position is assists last year (30+ minutes, starter). He was 0.1 assists away from 4th and 0.2 away from being 3rd.

Also, let's not forget the Jazz was THE WORST 3pt shooting team in the league last year. With better shooters he would probably be in play to be 1st (3.1 assists last year) in his position. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he did make an effort to improve in this area and since he came to the Jazz his assists numbers are rising and each year he posts career numbers in assists. I wrote a long post about this subject but for some reason I can't view my old posts or use the search system...

He holds the ball for far too long and ends up getting his shot regardless of how many defenders he has on him

That's also a plus. He can get his shot off against anybody and it is un-blockable. I agree that sometimes he holds the ball too much, but usually last year - when he got rid of the ball he would just get it right back because no one else was able to consistently create a shot.

Saying the jazz are built around big Al is just a sad thought that I genuinely hope is not true

Well, they got rid of a good slashing\penetrating PG in Harris for Mo which is not as good as Harris in that area, but is a better 3pt shooter. They also brought Marvin who isn't great at dribbling\penetrating creating his own shot, but is a better and more consistent shooter than Miles\Howard and Foye who should also shoot better than Raja. It looks to me that this team is built around post presence and continue to play inside out - and just like last year, the main weapon is Jefferson. You shouldn't be discouraged though, it is only for this year. We'll see what happens next.

Did you see the Future Power Rankings article on ESPN? It had us ranked as fourth, and admittedly, it did mention Al as a solid veteran

Yes, I saw it.

but paying him a 12-16 million dollar contract would be insane when we could get Paul for around 10, and save space for the young guns and solid role players

I agree that paying Al around 15M a year on his NEXT deal is too much. The scenario I saw where he stays with the Jazz is one where he will be willing to take less. Around 10M. Don't know how likely that is. But I wouldn't want Milsap for more than 8M a year. I would prefer Big Al at 12M than Milsap at 10M.

We need the cap space to sign not only them but Burks and Kanter the next year along with an entire roster of role players and maybe another potential star

It sure would be nice to get a star in free agency. How many times did it happen for the Jazz though? The Jazz have a lot of cap space next summer, and they don't have to blow it all away. They can remain flexible and leave enough to re-sign the young core.

Why throw a huge contract at Al who can only play center when we have Favors who could play both, a solid PF in Millsap, (he barely missed the AS team) and a developing big man in Kanter?

Big Al can definitely play both PF and C. He was converted to a C in Utah, but most of his career he played PF. I'm not saying the Jazz should give him a huge contract. If he won't budge from asking 15M a year the Jazz should let him walk. But they shouldn't sign Milsap for 10M a year either. And btw, its not only Milsap who barely missed the Allstar game- Big Al was in the discussion too and was well deserved. As for Kanter, it will take time with him. I don't think he should get 30 mins a game right now and is better served being brought along slowly. He is lost on too many defensive and offensive possessions and still doesn't know how to get his shot off inside without getting blocked. Playing him long minutes will hurt the team and him as well. He can wait until next year when Milsap or Jefferson will leave to make a jump. Also, I wouldn't venture a guess NOW regarding the salaries of Favors and Kanter, when Favors have 3 more years left on his contract and Kanter has 4 more (team options and qualifying offers)

So this is my question: Why would we risk alienating our young players? Having Al on the team is going to take 30 minutes away from players we want to develop to be part of our contending roster.

I don't see how this is alienating anyone. Everyone seems to really like Big Al as a person, and again - Milsap is also taking away 30 minutes from someone. Once one of them is gone, this "problem" will be solved, but it doesn't have to be Big Al.

Anyway, we don't have to agree, though your arguments do have merit. You asked for "intelligent discourse and an alternative opinion that at least justifies why he is still on our roster", so I hope you at least got that.

Al Jefferson is worth more than 10 mil a yr. You can bet someone will offer him a contract that starts around 12 mill+, and rightly so. The hate he gets baffles me.

He may be the Carmelo of Centers but he is still a talent.

A 20/10 center is not a dude that "needs to go now". Quite the opposite if you ask me.

Al is better than Boozer. I trust the Jazz will get a better player if in fact they trade or let him go.

nghedman wrote:Al is better than Boozer.

I thought this when the Jazz trades for him and shortly after, but I don't believe it any more. Al is a better first option on offense than Boozer, but Boozer is a far better complementary player; and Al isn't good enough to be the first option on a contender.

They're both terrible defending the pick and roll, but Boozer is better at fighting for position on the block and getting rebounds.

Don't forget that Boozer had a big hole in his offense, anyone taller and could cover his left side too would stop Boozer's game everytime.

Al has an above his head shot that I haven't seen a player yet be able to stop.... you know that weird set shot type shot he has, that he fakes off of too) Al seems like a pretty good go to guy to me.

If Boozer was stopped the Jazz had troubles inside. And then it went to if the D-Will was on the Jazz were on but D-Will was still learning how to carry a team. I wish we still had D-Will

nghedman wrote:Don't forget that Boozer had a big hole in his offense, anyone taller and could cover his left side too would stop Boozer's game everytime.

Al has an above his head shot that I haven't seen a player yet be able to stop....

It's such a low percentage shot, you
could argue he stops himself.

StocktonShorts wrote:

nghedman wrote:Don't forget that Boozer had a big hole in his offense, anyone taller and could cover his left side too would stop Boozer's game everytime.

Al has an above his head shot that I haven't seen a player yet be able to stop....

It's such a low percentage shot, you
could argue he stops himself.

right.

But he should of made those everytime especially if he is in position for a layup or in the paint. And actually he had a very good left hand jam.

It's such a low percentage shot, you
could argue he stops himself.

The stats say otherwise.
According to hoopdata, Big Al shoots (2012):

At rim: 67.6%
3-9 feet: 47.2%
10-15 feet: 40.4 %
16-23 feet: 41.0%

The league averages are:
At rim: 62.7%
3-9 feet: 37.5%
10-15 feet: 38.4 %
16-23 feet: 38.2%

And the most important thing - IT IS UN-BLOCKABLE. Very important in late game situations, especially when taking into account his extremely low turnover rate, and the fact that he can get it off any time and is not dependent on someone else to set him up.

My problem with that shot is that he shoots it in that 10+ foot range. Smart defenders don't try to block his shot, they just force him 10 feet away from the basket.

You can't compare your star player to the league average as a means of showing how good he is. And more than that, you can see by those splits that getting shots at the rim is incredibly important to being an efficient scorer in the league, and his percentage of shots at the rim is one of the lowest in the league among high scoring bigs, a problem that is compounded by his inability to draw contact and get to the line.

The OP still has it right.

I'm working with what I got. It was only to show that Big Al's shot is not falling in such a low percentage. It's the closest we can get since we can't get the actual numbers for that particular shot alone. The intention wasn't to show how good he is, it was to show his trademark shot doesn't fall in such low percentage.

Also, I don't think anyone thinks on Al as a "star". He is just the leading scorer, and he is doing what Corbin tells him to do.The rest of the team can't be excused for not being able to create shots themselves and feeding him the ball to bail them out and create something out of nothing.

Btw, the league average for centers for shots at the rim is 64.1%

At least according to this link, Big Al's is doing ok. Not stellar, but not bad:
[url]http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2012&gp=0&mins=0[/url]

These same stats shows Boozer to be a better option than Jefferson:

Boozer (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 68.1%
3-9: 1.6 attempts/game - 53.8%
10-15: 2.4 attempts/game - 43.3%
16-23: 4.6 attempts/game - 45%

Jefferson (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 67.6%
3-9: 4.8 attempts/game - 47.2%
10-15: 3.3 attempts/game - 40.4%
16-23: 4.7 attempts/game - 41%

StocktonShorts wrote:These same stats shows Boozer to be a better option than Jefferson:

Boozer (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 68.1%
3-9: 1.6 attempts/game - 53.8%
10-15: 2.4 attempts/game - 43.3%
16-23: 4.6 attempts/game - 45%

Jefferson (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 67.6%
3-9: 4.8 attempts/game - 47.2%
10-15: 3.3 attempts/game - 40.4%
16-23: 4.7 attempts/game - 41%

The big difference is that boozer needs to be set up. you can't just give him the ball and expect him to create something, not to mention that like someone else already wrote, taller defenders cause him a lot of troubles. Big Al can create a shot ANY TIME. And again, often times he was forced to due to the inability of the others on the team creating a shot to take shots and bail others out. Plus, they play different positions.

I'm looking forward to seeing Jefferson play with shooters. If spacing the floor is half as important as realgm thinks it is, we're going to see a lot of people get clowned inside by Jefferson, and a lot of wide open looks from 3 because of his interior threat.

We'll see. Al's a great guy, so I'd love him to prove his detractors wrong, but I have my doubts.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

StocktonShorts wrote:These same stats shows Boozer to be a better option than Jefferson:

Boozer (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 68.1%
3-9: 1.6 attempts/game - 53.8%
10-15: 2.4 attempts/game - 43.3%
16-23: 4.6 attempts/game - 45%

Jefferson (2012)
At rim: 4.2 Attempts/game - 67.6%
3-9: 4.8 attempts/game - 47.2%
10-15: 3.3 attempts/game - 40.4%
16-23: 4.7 attempts/game - 41%

The big difference is that boozer needs to be set up. you can't just give him the ball and expect him to create something, not to mention that like someone else already wrote, taller defenders cause him a lot of troubles. Big Al can create a shot ANY TIME. And again, often times he was forced to due to the inability of the others on the team creating a shot to take shots and bail others out. Plus, they play different positions.

They don't really play different positions on offense; and Boozer played almost half his minutes at center his last year with the Jazz.

As for being setup, Boozer is a much better pick and roll player than Al. He makes himself available to get setup by fighting for position -- a foreign concept to Al on both ends of the court.