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The Jazz's problem, I fear, is that they think they can build a contender by incrementally adding 2nd- and 3rd-tier guys to a team. If you keep adding those guys year after year, they must think, you can go from making the playoffs, to being a 6-seed, to eventually winning a championship.

In reality, you need at minimum one 1st-tier guy to build around. The Jazz don't have that guy and they look as far away from getting him as ever.

That's absolutely true...... The other problem is, the Jazz aren't any closer to finding out what our own players can amount to, because we play Jefferson/Millsap over Favors/Kanter and Williams/Foye over Hayward/Burks......

I have come to the conclusion that the Utah Jazz are like the Oakland A's playing money ball. Just do enough to have fans be interested enough to keep buying tickets while never going over the cap again. The ultimate goal of the Jazz is to just be competitive enough and not to try win a NBA championship. Its is truly unfortunate!

red4hf wrote:That's absolutely true...... The other problem is, the Jazz aren't any closer to finding out what our own players can amount to, because we play Jefferson/Millsap over Favors/Kanter and Williams/Foye over Hayward/Burks......

I think if we had a 1st-tier guy we'd know it by now.

HolyToledo12 wrote:I have come to the conclusion that the Utah Jazz are like the Oakland A's playing money ball. Just do enough to have fans be interested enough to keep buying tickets while never going over the cap again. The ultimate goal of the Jazz is to just be competitive enough and not to try win a NBA championship. Its is truly unfortunate!

Hey, but remember that one time when the Pistons won with a group of 2nd-tier guys! That could be us! That one exception to the rule is the blueprint to follow!

StocktonShorts wrote:

red4hf wrote:That's absolutely true...... The other problem is, the Jazz aren't any closer to finding out what our own players can amount to, because we play Jefferson/Millsap over Favors/Kanter and Williams/Foye over Hayward/Burks......

I think if we had a 1st-tier guy we'd know it by now.

Jermaine O'Neal was a first tier player and yet sat on the bench for a while, until a team actually gave him the minutes he needed......

We don't know what the offers were on the table. I believe the FO really does want to win a championship, but that comes second to long-term financial viability. They won't do anything that could potentially hurt them for years, even if it has the potential to win big. They will position themselves with flexibility, cashing in assets for higher picks occasionally, and hope that they find a diamond-in-the-rough that blooms late so they don't risk spending money too early.

Jazz good enough to make some money but never great enough to spend any. Its been this way for 30 years, its to be expected no real surprise. Were always built to be a first round team maybe make a second round.

nguyenbalong wrote:Jazz good enough to make some money but never great enough to spend any. Its been this way for 30 years, its to be expected no real surprise. Were always built to be a first round team maybe make a second round.

They did pay the tax for a year or two in the Deron/Boozer era...... So, you can't really say they are not willing to spend money.......

red4hf wrote:

nguyenbalong wrote:Jazz good enough to make some money but never great enough to spend any. Its been this way for 30 years, its to be expected no real surprise. Were always built to be a first round team maybe make a second round.

They did pay the tax for a year or two in the Deron/Boozer era...... So, you can't really say they are not willing to spend money.......

Yep, although they were careful not to sign anything long-term so they knew they were trading two years of luxury tax for a team that had a bunch of known-entities and looked pretty good. If it weren't for the Lakers I think the team would have done much better than they did. Odom just made it a terrible match-up for years.

The Jazz have been trying to work their way into higher draft picks while not losing to do so. It is a different way of doing it rather than tanking. I am ok with that mentality until the roster has another turn over without progress.

Al Jefferson was a reasonable gamble. It came right after Zak Randolph made a change to his game and let Memphis on a run. It's not like the Jazz gave up a bunch to get him.

Favors/Kanter High draft picks that the Jazz acquired without tanking. Just happened to be in drafts the top tier talent that everyone wants was not in.

Simply the Jazz have to play money ball until the right opportunity comes along that is part of being a small market team. They will not be able to take risks every year and lose or the team will end up being soled and moved. As a local Utah Jazz fan I prefer this money ball approach so I can still go and see NBA basketball and hope for the right break.

Like Red4hf said they have been willing to pay when the timing is right.

Who needs banners when you've got gate revenue.

I'm glad our front office isn't incompetent, but it is incredibly frustrating knowing they could pull off the moves required to make us a contender, but have ZERO tolerance for anything resembling risk (financially, chemistry-wise, any kind). Every season is a grand success in their minds. This is why I'll watch far more college basketball this year and refuse to spend any money on the Jazz. At least my team has a chance of winning in March, that feeling makes being a fan so much more gratifying.

I'll watch the team in the playoffs, catch a few regular season games because I can't help it, but I'm starting to feel stupid for being emotionally invested in the club when what I value in a sports team is diametrically opposed to what the organization values.

And philosophically, I just disagree with how the Millers are running the Jazz. You don't own sports teams to make money. Look at the profit margins, almost every other industry is better from a bottom line standpoint. Is there really no one else who will run the team to compete AND keep the team in Utah? Because until our owner can tolerate that kind of financial risk, the chances of winning a championship are so low they might as well be zero. I truly envy people who can enjoy watching this team without those expectations, but to me, that's just not why I follow sports.

2006-7 We had one season where we went to the conference final that was when golden state upset the mavs and we lost to the spurs. that was 6 years ago.
2007-8the following season we traded for kyle. went to the playoffs Got beat by the lakers.
2009-10 had to get rid of Eric Maynor and the contract of the retired Matt Harpring, r Ronnie Brewer to the Memphis Grizzlies, got swept by the lakers.
2010 lost boozer,krover,mathews got bell, jefferson, elson,watson
2011-12 traded d will, lost sloan,and phil

So over a course of 6 years the 2006 team was the only team did pretty good and that was by luck thanks to golden states upsetting the mavs

the following year we made only move that was a great improvement, nothing that would make utah a contender.

The following year got rid of some pieces to address the tax yes we had to pay around 2 mill in tax. Still built to be a first round playoff team.

the next year lost more players trough free agent replaced with one good player and some fillers. still not built to contender another first round playoff.

then comes jerrys resignation, dwills trade welcome semi rebuild.

So in the last six years granted we did go over the luxury tax twice have we ever build up a true contending team? Maybe theres a reason D will didnt want to stay?

GOD BEING A SMALL MARKET TEAM SUCKS ASS>>>>

Nguyen I agree with you, anyone want to take bets that Favors and Burks leave in free agency because of Tyrone Corbin? Or if they resign Paul I imagine Favors will ask for a trade and we will get something awesome out of a trade hopefully but we just lost a very special talent. I understand that the Jazz are playing money ball, I am an accountant I get it but I would like to point out that when you piss of the people that pay you (fans) and when you piss off the people that make you the money (players) you are guaranteed to lose a whole lot of money. From watching the games you can tell the seats are empty, people are sick of a mediocre team. Why pay for tickets when you can watch Ty Corbin play Watson instead Burks or Millsap and Jefferson over Favors and Kanter. I understand that the FO wants flex but at the same time at least try to please the fan base. If we didn't get good offers at the deadline fine but please do something in the offseason that will excite fans. Sign some young players like Darren Collison, resign some of our players (just DeMarre, Tinsley, maybe Big Al, and definitely Foye), let others walk (Watson, Mo, Paul, etc). If you piss off the people that spend money on your jerseys, tickets, etc. you wont make any money.

StocktonShorts wrote:

HolyToledo12 wrote:I have come to the conclusion that the Utah Jazz are like the Oakland A's playing money ball. Just do enough to have fans be interested enough to keep buying tickets while never going over the cap again. The ultimate goal of the Jazz is to just be competitive enough and not to try win a NBA championship. Its is truly unfortunate!

Hey, but remember that one time when the Pistons won with a group of 2nd-tier guys! That could be us! That one exception to the rule is the blueprint to follow!

Who wants to accidentally win one championship. I want to be like Spurs where you got a guy like Tony Parker who is like Stockton, who stays on for 10+ years, with a guy like Tim Duncan who is like Karl Malone and will be on the team for 10+ years and you spend all that time building teams around them and hopefully grabing a few rings along the way.

I have to say Hayward can easily become the next Paul George, just delayed from being bench, he could be our new high scorer. As far as the now goes, Mo is probably the best team leader we have at PG. If we would have been 100% like what we are now but with Mo, we could have easily been in top 4, if you minus a lot of the losses in December and November. Those months were the first time those groups of people played, and we didn't have any sort of identity till here in 2013.

Watching the team with Mo I am not sure we actually have a leader on the floor.

I agree with the original post that this team is likely comprised of a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier guys, but I disagree that they haven't tried to obtain a 1st tier guy. There aren't a ton of top tier guys in the NBA, and the Jazz aren't going to be signing those guys as FAs. The best route for us to obtain a true blue chipper is through the draft.

Look at the moves KOC has made the past few years. He has repeatedly made moves to acquire lottery picks. The NY pick we obtained years ago was looking like a top 5 pick for awhile. It ended up lower than we were expecting, but still netted us a very nice piece in Hayward.

When we moved Deron we got a number 3 pick in Favors, along with multiple draft picks. We lucked out with the Nets one and got another number 3 pick in Kanter. That's the draft range you have to be in to get one of those top tier guys. With a couple of extra lucky bounces we could have had the number 1 pick that year and instead be looking at a nucleus of Irving, Favors, Hayward, etc.

The problem goes back to the first point; there are only a couple of real blue-chippers in this league. You can make all the right moves and acquire top picks, but if you don't get lucky hitting a superstar than there is a ceiling to how good you can be.

Look at all of the teams that are contenders. With the exception of MIA, all of the contenders hit big in the lotto - SA-Duncan, OKC-Durant, CHI-Rose, LAC-Griffin.

One thing you won't see the Jazz do is tank for top picks. The team values the long term stability of the franchise too much to go that route. Unfortunately, that's the reality of being a small market team. So instead, the Jazz are attempting to stay competitive while maintaining flexibility.

You can knock the results of KOC plan, but to say he's been content with mediocrity seems disingenuous.

OKC was super lucky, but spent like 10 years at being a Clipper team!

Who is lucky to land Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden...They landed two nucleous's with major role players.

Sorry... I think it's more than just luck involved. Of course luck matters; you take Derrrick Rose and the guy have a serious injury and never be the same... tha's luck.... on the other hand Oden over Durant is stupidity...
Jazz could have drafted Ibaka; but they preferred Koufos. Could have drafted Dragic, but they preferred Tomic who will never play in Utah or probably in the NBA at all... could have drafted Gortat but preferred Robert Whaley...
Parker/Ginobili in SA... they were drafted 28th and 57th...
Some front office decided to draft Mayo over Wetsbrook... or Marvin over CP3/DWill.... and you can go with endless examples....
Real good, out of the box/ out of the status quo /out off the mass media influence scouting have much to do with it.

RyanStorm wrote:OKC was super lucky, but spent like 10 years at being a Clipper team!

Who is lucky to land Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden...They landed two nucleous's with major role players.

You should go read my summary of how OKC built their team:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1230709

It wasn't 10 years of sucking nor was it just luck (the biggest contribution of luck was not in whom they drafted but in getting the No. 2 pick in the lottery).