Winner?- Denver or Utah

[SoCalJazzFan]

So, Utah and Denver both traded away their All Star franchise player a couple of years ago.

Is Denver's success this past season an indictment on Utah's approach to rebuilding?

Was Denver simply lucky to have a better coach?

Will Utah's approach eventually prove to be the better long term approach?

Will Utah's young players overcome Utah's approach and eventually make Utah the better team?

[pickIBL]

Not everyone in Nuggetland loves George Karl. The lack of half court offense does come up. Carmelo Anthony also did a lot of holding onto the ball which was a problem. If Carmelo could have worked his way into the flow of the offense it might have worked. Making Carmelo work with George Karl was clearly puting a round peg in a square hole. Possibly a different coach could have had a different result... or not.

Carmelo forced his way out of Denver and basically would only go to NYK... despite what he says. At the time he said the summer extension was a done deal and he'd get around to signing it. Problem is he never did... and then the official response from camp carmelo was that he was "keeping his options open". The Knick trade was mostly dumb luck. They wanted Favors too.

So you must also factor in Denver's abilities in the draft.

Lawson, Faried, Hamilton (if Karl would play him), and Fournier all came via draft.

And here is the kicker... Iggy could be gone this summer or next. The Blazers for example are looking for a 5 so the Nuggets could pair up McGee and Dre and make a move. That would open up Denver for a max contract.

Or in 2014 it means Denver could throw big money at Derrick Favors.

So the Nuggets are in a good spot right now despite the injury.

The jury is still out on the Jazz. IMO it is not as simple as it seems. Favors is a Center. The only way he is making the all-star team is as a center. He could start and play 38 minutes a night at the 5 and he could be an all-star next season. The Jazz need to find a way to make him happy and fast. Before he starts talking sign & trades or the Q offer.

And for that reason I see Kanter as the guy that could get moved. Getting the right pieces back in a Kanter/Marvin Williams trade could be key. Drafting right is also huge.

The NBA is embracing NFL socialism. So teams that draft well and don't overspend can always retool to get competitive in a year or two. That's what the NBA is going to. The main thing right now is to not overpay for Jefferson/Mo etc. That's how you get on the treadmill to nowhere.

[Hoops Addict]

Utah got a better return....of course getting the 3rd pick helped a lot. We got Favors, Kanter, Burks and the 21st pick this year.

They got Gallanari ( who is very good, and hurt), Felton ( who was not) and some other assets.

Denver is good because they got the fast PG and drafted MANIMAL.

[pickIBL]

some other assets LOL. a healthy wilson chander is a bad man.

20 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 51% FG, 43% 3P, 92% FT 32.4 mpg... last 5 games

He's stepping up with Gallo out for sure.

[d-will8]

Denver's trade has certainly produced more immediate dividends than the Jazz's trade. Further, the Jazz aren't doing the most logical job playing the hand they created by trading a top 15 player for two 19 year old big men. Despite that and despite how raw Favors and Kanter are and how uncertain it is whether they'll ever reach their potential, I feel like the trade the Jazz made was definitely better for the Jazz than the Nuggets' trade would have been. If the Jazz had Gallo, Chandler, and Felton instead of Favors, Kanter, and the GSW pick, they wouldn't have anywhere near the upside or flexibility they have now. They'd basically be locked in as a sixth or seventh seed. On the flip side, you could argue that Denver's trade was better for Denver.

[reapaman]

Well lets review what each team ultimately has got from the trade up to this point.

Denver got Gallo, Chandler, A.Miller (traded Felton for him), Koufos, Mosgov, Hamilton (Felton trade), Q. Miller, 2014 1st, 2014 2nd (Felton trade), and rights to swap 1st round picks w/ NY in 2016

Utah got Favors, Kanter, Ma. Williams (traded Harris for him) and 2013 21st pick

Denver cleaned up and for now has easily made out way better than us. For one, the peices they got made sense with their ultimate direction where as we went on two meaningless playoff runs (one of which failed) instead of rebuilding. KOC SUCKS!!!

[russnumber3]

I think alot of people say Denver, but its still yet to be decided. George Karl is extremely undervalued imo. Their squad is not much better that ours (if at all) and yet they are a 3 seed this year. They have overachieved greatly, and superior coaching is the biggest reason. This was most blatant when we matched up with the Nuggs this year. They know what they need to do, and exactly how they need to play, and they go out and do it.

It was really sad to watch Coach Corbin and our players after the season was over, talking about how proud they were of "sticking together, and blah, blah, blah." This season was an utter failure and I hope they aren't succeeding at convincing management otherwise. If we had a better coach we would be in the playoffs, and if we had a great coach we would be achieving like the Nuggs are.

Finally, its interesting how at the start of the year, looking at our roster on paper, no one would have said a 5 seed was out of reach, but now it sounds like crazy talk.

[Fido]

In the short-term, Denver. In the long-term, hopefully Utah. Time will tell.

[reapaman]

Finally, its interesting how at the start of the year, looking at our roster on paper, no one would have said a 5 seed was out of reach, but now it sounds like crazy talk.

Thats 100% untrue. During pre-season west standing predictions, most non jazz fans had us as one of the worst teams in the league while others said we wouldn't be that bad but would still fail to make the playoffs. The jazz fans were really the only ones that had us even making the playoffs and even that wasn't unanimous since I among other had us finishing 9th and a couple said 10th.

[jazzrock]

Well lets review what each team ultimately has got from the trade up to this point.

Denver got Gallo, Chandler, A.Miller (traded Felton for him), Koufos, Mosgov, Hamilton (Felton trade), Q. Miller, 2014 1st, 2014 2nd (Felton trade), and rights to swap 1st round picks w/ NY in 2016

Utah got Favors, Kanter, Ma. Williams (traded Harris for him) and 2013 21st pick

Denver cleaned up and for now has easily made out way better than us. For one, the peices they got made sense with their ultimate direction where as we went on two meaningless playoff runs (one of which failed) instead of rebuilding. KOC SUCKS!!!

Thanks for laying this out. Denver got the better deal here. But interesting nobody has said this, Denver should have received the better deal. As much as it pains me to say this, they traded Melo and Melo is worth much much more than Dwill.

[pickIBL]

The more important issue is Derrick Favors. What does Derrick Favors see in his future? Does he want to play center or PF? he's being a professional... but behind closed doors is his circle annoyed his isn't getting time. Will that impact the ability to get an extension done. If his people think the Jazz played him less to have the upper hand in talks... will they hold out for free agency? Lots of questions. You just hope the FO has sat down with him and they've discussed all this rather than being blindsided by it.

If I was representing Favors... I would not be happy with the Jazz. I figure if my client was getting 38 minutes a night at center he'd be headed to all star games and getting max money.

Plenty of NBA teams will offer S&Ts and would be more than willing to put together a big contract for Favors IMO.

[russnumber3]

Well lets review what each team ultimately has got from the trade up to this point.

Denver got Gallo, Chandler, A.Miller (traded Felton for him), Koufos, Mosgov, Hamilton (Felton trade), Q. Miller, 2014 1st, 2014 2nd (Felton trade), and rights to swap 1st round picks w/ NY in 2016

Utah got Favors, Kanter, Ma. Williams (traded Harris for him) and 2013 21st pick

Denver cleaned up and for now has easily made out way better than us. For one, the peices they got made sense with their ultimate direction where as we went on two meaningless playoff runs (one of which failed) instead of rebuilding. KOC SUCKS!!!

Thanks for laying this out. Denver got the better deal here. But interesting nobody has said this, Denver should have received the better deal. As much as it pains me to say this, they traded Melo and Melo is worth much much more than Dwill.

um no its very close. If i had to start a team and pick between the two I would pick Dwill and I think many gms would too.

[pickIBL]

deron has a nasty contract when you consider his chronic ankle issues (in both ankles). In a year or two the Johnson/Williams contracts will really start to hurt the Nets under this new CBA... when Deron is out and Joe can't perform up to his deal.

[russnumber3]

Finally, its interesting how at the start of the year, looking at our roster on paper, no one would have said a 5 seed was out of reach, but now it sounds like crazy talk.

Thats 100% untrue. During pre-season west standing predictions, most non jazz fans had us as one of the worst teams in the league while others said we wouldn't be that bad but would still fail to make the playoffs. The jazz fans were really the only ones that had us even making the playoffs and even that wasn't unanimous since I among other had us finishing 9th and a couple said 10th.

I will find it if I have to. guarantee I can find us in the playoffs and as high as a 5 seed on preseason predictions. Think about it. We were an 8 seed last year, and we DID make improvements on paper. How is it logical for anyone to predict we would be the worst team in the league. You are way too low on this team. Hell if we had even stayed healthy we would be in the playoffs as 7 or better.

[russnumber3]

My main point is that our team is underperforming based on the roster. We have one of the best low post players in the game, good rebounders, depth, a swing man who penetrates and distributes, solid bench players, and shooting. And we should EXPECT 9th or 10th in the west why??? I just think many coaches are doing much more with less.

[Fido]

The more important issue is Derrick Favors. What does Derrick Favors see in his future? Does he want to play center or PF? he's being a professional... but behind closed doors is his circle annoyed his isn't getting time. Will that impact the ability to get an extension done. If his people think the Jazz played him less to have the upper hand in talks... will they hold out for free agency? Lots of questions. You just hope the FO has sat down with him and they've discussed all this rather than being blindsided by it.

If I was representing Favors... I would not be happy with the Jazz. I figure if my client was getting 38 minutes a night at center he'd be headed to all star games and getting max money.

Plenty of NBA teams will offer S&Ts and would be more than willing to put together a big contract for Favors IMO.

Rumors I'm hearing say the Jazz are wanting and encouraging Favors to take a more active leadership role and sieze the starting spot with his play. But so far he has been inclined to defer to the veterans and has not been the consistent producer they want to see in a starter. If he doesn't step up with potentially no Millsap/Jefferson there it will be really sad.

[StocktonShorts]

Rumors I'm hearing say the Jazz are wanting and encouraging Favors to take a more active leadership role and sieze the starting spot with his play. .

That's not really a rumor. Dennis Lindsey pretty explicitly said as much on locker clean out day.

[reapaman]

My main point is that our team is underperforming based on the roster. We have one of the best low post players in the game, good rebounders, depth, a swing man who penetrates and distributes, solid bench players, and shooting. And we should EXPECT 9th or 10th in the west why??? I just think many coaches are doing much more with less.

Well heres the "seed the west" thread in the general board from this summer that we had the big debates in.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1198903

As you see it was mostly Jazz fans that even thought we were a playoff team

[StocktonShorts]

My main point is that our team is underperforming based on the roster. We have one of the best low post players in the game, good rebounders, depth, a swing man who penetrates and distributes, solid bench players, and shooting. And we should EXPECT 9th or 10th in the west why??? I just think many coaches are doing much more with less.

Well heres the "seed the west" thread in the general board from this summer that we had the big debates in.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1198903

As you see it was mostly Jazz fans that even thought we were a playoff team

But many of those same people had the Jazz ranked behind Minnesota and Dallas. When you take those teams out the Jazz are in nearly everyone's top 8. To be fair, most predictions were pre-Harden trade, but with the way the West played out, with Minnesota, the Lakers and Dallas hampered by injuries, the Jazz really should have made the playoffs with the roster they had.

[reapaman]

My main point is that our team is underperforming based on the roster. We have one of the best low post players in the game, good rebounders, depth, a swing man who penetrates and distributes, solid bench players, and shooting. And we should EXPECT 9th or 10th in the west why??? I just think many coaches are doing much more with less.

Well heres the "seed the west" thread in the general board from this summer that we had the big debates in.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1198903

As you see it was mostly Jazz fans that even thought we were a playoff team

But many of those same people had the Jazz ranked behind Minnesota and Dallas. When you take those teams out the Jazz are in nearly everyone's top 8. To be fair, most predictions were pre-Harden trade, but with the way the West played out, with Minnesota, the Lakers and Dallas hampered by injuries, the Jazz really should have made the playoffs with the roster they had.

Thats a different discussion because he said you wouldn't find anyone in the preason that didn't have us in the playoffs or as high as the 5th seed. Pre-season predictions rarely turn out very accurate and oviously the predictions after the harden trade were similar but the point was almost nobody but jazz fams thought if all things were equal (meaning not taking to account major trades and major injuries) that we could make the playoffs as we were constructed. So on paper we just were not appealing enough to people.

Plus I don't like when so many jazz fans predicting us being so good before the season started while knowing Corbin was still the coach but now want to put major blame on him and put every move he makes under a microscope. People saw him coach last year, how has people opinions of him changed since the beginning of the season? No opinion should change as fast as it did with Corbin because if people thought he was as bad of a coach as they are saying he is then they wouldn't have predicted us to be that good.