RealGM

Both KOC and Dennis Lindsey have not been shy in telling the press that they want to see defensive improvement from both Ty Corbin and the Jazz next year, but will they give him the right kind of players to facilitate that improvement?

Last year they gave Ty a team that featured Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Mo Williams, Randy Foye and Jamaal Tinsley. Building a strong defensive team out of that unit would be a challenge for even a defensive guru. For the dynamically-dressed but tactically-challenged duo of Corbin and Sidney Lowe it was probably out of the question.

Can we predict anything about the Jazz's offseason plans based on this stated emphasis on defense?

the answer is within the question. al+millsap+foye+mo should not be starting together. i think the jazz had decent defensive tools this season, they were just no utilized correctly. foye, mo, al and millsap should complement good defenders with their offensive talents, not the other way around. asking corbin or any other coach to make that lineup good defensively is too much. but any other coach would have realized it and wouldn't make all of them starters together. so the simple answer is: don't start them or play all of them together. of all of them, only al is a starter.

I'd still love to see the Jordan/Bledsoe thing happen. I think that strenghtens our starting units D AND our bench D. Maybe s&t Millsap and our pick gets it done?

If the Jazz want to get better on defense then they have to part ways with big al and millsap. I think if the jazz bring either of them back then all the talk about better defense is going to offend those of us who are intelligent. If next season starts and the starting frount court is Kanter and Favors, then maybe all that talk about better d has some traction. If either millsap or jefferson are on the team, I may not get the league pass and I'hve had the league pass for about six years and i've loved it.
except this year it was different. I can not and will not go through another year of watching jefferson and millsap...won't do it, that's a promise. no way the jazz will ever be a good defensive team with millsap or jefferson starting.

Out perimeter defense was just as bad as our interior defense.

Memphis has been a lot of fun to watch this playoffs. Neither of their bigs is especially mobile, but the team still manages to own the defensive paint. Randolf rebounds, and Gasol's size is more important than his speed. You'd think you could pick and roll those guys as easily as our bigs. But the perimeter defenders are so active going around, through, or over screens that they stop the penetration. It's excellent.

The difference is that each defender plays within his role. Having a defensive superstar is nice, and Memphis does have some defensive stars, but its the team defense that really makes it happen for the Grizzlies.

Luigi wrote:Out perimeter defense was just as bad as our interior defense.

Yup.

BringtheD wrote:I think if the jazz bring either of them back then all the talk about better defense is going to offend those of us who are intelligent.

And if the FO brings back Mo and Foye while asking Corbin to make the team better defensively I'm just going to laugh and stop following this franchise until the current era of incompetence and doublespeak is over.

king everything wrote:I'd still love to see the Jordan/Bledsoe thing happen. I think that strenghtens our starting units D AND our bench D. Maybe s&t Millsap and our pick gets it done?

I don't think it comes close.

DelaneyRudd wrote:

king everything wrote:I'd still love to see the Jordan/Bledsoe thing happen. I think that strenghtens our starting units D AND our bench D. Maybe s&t Millsap and our pick gets it done?

I don't think it comes close.

Talent wise, I agree. But the clips need some flexibility. This could help. Idk, I just think we make good trade partners with them currently.

Jordan has major negative value at this point so I don't think it would be that hard to get both.

He still plays like a rookie defensively after five years in the NBA so I'm not how much I would want to trade for and commit money to them though.

StocktonShorts wrote:And if the FO brings back Mo and Foye while asking Corbin to make the team better defensively I'm just going to laugh and stop following this franchise until the current era of incompetence and doublespeak is over.

i guess it will be too much to expect from corbin to just not start them? foye has value and can help with his shooting. but not as a starter. mo was at his best during his NBA career as a sixth man. he can help in the right role. the problem for me is less the roster and more how it is used.

It doesn't matter who you start. When hayward or carroll started we were just as bad. Burks wasn't much better when he played major minutes. Guys easily get by our wings on the regular. Mabey a couple will get better fundamental wise but as of now we need to bring in some real defenders along with Favors bulking up so he can adequetly play center also learn to play smarter defensively and know when to foul.

reapaman wrote: Mabey a couple will get better fundamental wise but as of now we need to bring in some real defenders along with Favors bulking up so he can adequetly play center also learn to play smarter defensively and know when to foul.

what's the difference if:

reapaman wrote:It doesn't matter who you start.

reapa, you're my guy and all that. i really like reading you posts, but when you write stuff like that it is hard to take you seriously.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

reapaman wrote: Mabey a couple will get better fundamental wise but as of now we need to bring in some real defenders along with Favors bulking up so he can adequetly play center also learn to play smarter defensively and know when to foul.

what's the difference if:

reapaman wrote:It doesn't matter who you start.

reapa, you're my guy and all that. i really like reading you posts, but when you write stuff like that it is hard to take you seriously.

Huh1?! To make sure were on the same page, I was refering to the perimeter player that were on the team this season in that it doesn't matter who starts. You already know I'm not fan of any of Hayward, Burks or Carroll's defense so them starting over Mo, Foye or Marvin doesn't make much difference imo. No matter which perimeter player played against other starters, you still saw little guys coming into the lane or easily seperating from our guys on a regular basis.

Once we get some real defenders on the perimeter then it will matter who starts as far as our defense is concerned. Interior defense is a different story since we know Favors is the best defender. Why Favors didn't start over Millsap you may ask? Probably trying to keep Millsap happy or he punted defense for offense or mabey he thought Millsap was best as a starter and liked favors stregnthing our bench or mabey he's worried about him getting into foul trouble versus starters or mabey corbin is truely an idiot. I don't know but the wings and guards are my primary concern.

yep, we are on the same page. i have to strongly disagree with you there. while it is true that Hayward, Burks or Carroll are not going to be all NBA defenders anytime soon, there is still a difference and grades in between the players we do have and their quality of defense. even if Hayward, Burks or Carroll's defense is exactly equal to mo and foye's (which it doesn't - it is much better, or less worse, however you would like to phrase it), they are still taller and more athletic at the very least, which already makes a difference, not to mention the historically bad rebounding numbers of our mo+foye back court (i consider rebounding a part of defense).

so yeah, Hayward, Burks or Carroll may not be perfect, but they are still much better than mo and foye when it comes to defense. and this is before we consider corbin's defensive schemes which were awful the entire year. it was correctly pointed out by zach lowe that the jazz were inconsistent in how they defend in certain situations like P&R and that the players were just seemed confused and not on the same page.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9042169/al-jefferson-paul-millsap-tyrone-corbin-future-utah-jazz

so... yeah. saying it doesn't matter who starts when millsap gets killed every game inside, and mo+foye get regularly burned on D and put up one of the worst rebounding back courts in NBA history - i can't understand that in the slightest.

reapaman wrote:It doesn't matter who you start. When hayward or carroll started we were just as bad. Burks wasn't much better when he played major minutes. Guys easily get by our wings on the regular. Mabey a couple will get better fundamental wise but as of now we need to bring in some real defenders along with Favors bulking up so he can adequetly play center also learn to play smarter defensively and know when to foul.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213UTA.HTM

Clearly, looking at their production vs opponent and on/off court numbers, Hayward and Carrol are better defensively than Foye and Mo. Even Burks was better than Mo.

Foye should be a bench player with the specific role of coming in and lighting it up from behind the arc when needed. He should not be a starter. Period.

It was reported that Karasev hung pretty well with Wiggins at the Hoops Summit... so I think Karasev could actually turn out to be a decent perimeter defender... just never anywhere near elite. In terms of perimeter defensive potential... Franklin & Ennis come to mind. I think Ennis has played (and measured out well) his way to an early 2nd bubble first. So I don't see how the Jazz get him, but I like what I see from Ennis.

The goal when finding a perimeter defensive stopper is for him also to be able to knock down a jumper as well. Ennis has the potential to be a guy like that. I wouold encourage the front office to be active in getting some more picks because they should come cheap this year. And there are guys out there that can play... that could very well be as good or better than a lot of the top picks.

Maybe the FO should just forget about PGs There is some pretty decent talent that could be around even at the end of the 1st and into the 2nd. Karasev should be lotto but that isn't a lock. Crabbe is a bubble first. Tony Mitchell is in the bottom 1/2 of the 1st. Franklin is a bubble 1st. Ennis played his way up. Jaiteh is a nice project big. There is talent out there to be had. Roberson is a nice project too.

http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?T ... %20Factors

There's some fun information to be gleaned from that link, here are some guard/SF combinations and what effective FG% they gave up while on the court (minutes played together in parentheses).

Carroll and Foye: 51.4% (410)
Foye and Mo: 51.3% (964)
Foye and Hayward: 51.2% (771)
Hayward and Mo: 50.8% (901)
Foye and Tinsley: 50.2% (804)
Foye and Marvin: 49.4% (993)
Burks and Hayward: 49.4% (596)
Hayward and Marvin: 49.3% (580)
Burks and Marvin: 49.1% (323)
Burks and Carroll: 48.4% (369)
Carroll and Tinsley: 48.4% (302)
Burks and Tinsley: 48.3% (182)
Carroll and Hayward: 48.0% (478)
Burks and Foye: 45.2% (276)
Hayward and Tinsley: 43.6% (401)

For some perspective on eFG%, the cutoff for top 10 in the league this year was around 49%, while the cutoff for bottom 10 was around 51%. Jazz as a team were at 50.1% about right in the middle.

Based on the list above, I don't think you can accurately state, as reapaman did, that "when hayward or carroll started we were just as bad."

I think the big takeaways here are:

1) Mo is a bad, bad defender
2) pairing Mo and Foye is an awful, awful decision, especially when you look at their historically bad rebounding numbers

StocktonShorts wrote:http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?TeamID=1610612762&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&PerMode=Per48&MeasureType=Four%20Factors

There's some fun information to be gleaned from that link, here are some guard/SF combinations and what effective FG% they gave up while on the court (minutes played together in parentheses).

Carroll and Foye: 51.4% (410)
Foye and Mo: 51.3% (964)
Foye and Hayward: 51.2% (771)
Hayward and Mo: 50.8% (901)
Foye and Tinsley: 50.2% (804)
Foye and Marvin: 49.4% (993)
Burks and Hayward: 49.4% (596)
Hayward and Marvin: 49.3% (580)
Burks and Marvin: 49.1% (323)
Burks and Carroll: 48.4% (369)
Carroll and Tinsley: 48.4% (302)
Burks and Tinsley: 48.3% (182)
Carroll and Hayward: 48.0% (478)
Burks and Foye: 45.2% (276)
Hayward and Tinsley: 43.6% (401)

For some perspective on eFG%, the cutoff for top 10 in the league this year was around 49%, while the cutoff for bottom 10 was around 51%. Jazz as a team were at 50.1% about right in the middle.

Based on the list above, I don't think you can accurately state, as reapaman did, that "when hayward or carroll started we were just as bad."

When Hayward started this season, they were all with mo and the percentage combination was 50.8%. When Carroll started he was at the 3 with foye and Mo. Carroll and Foye were 51.4%. In contrast Foye and Mo were 51.3%. This data doesn't separate when a line up played versus starters and when they played versus bench players because that makes a huge difference. So its hard to really draw anything conclusive here without being unfair to Mo and Foye since they played way more vs starters than the others.

What we can attempt to draw from this is that Mo and Foye started most of the games they played so more than likely who ever they were pair with played against starters for the most part. So if we just focused on how those guys performed with those two there wasn't much of a difference between Mo and Foye, or Foye and Carroll or Mo and Hayward or Hayward and Foye. If there were was a big difference in their defensive skills then you should see that Foye for example should be much better with Hayward than Mo instead of just a little bit better (or worse in the case of Carroll and Foye) but thats not the case.

reapaman wrote:When Hayward started this season, they were all with mo and the percentage combination was 50.8%. When Carroll started he was at the 3 with foye and Mo. Carroll and Foye were 51.4%. In contrast Foye and Mo were 51.3%. This data doesn't separate when a line up played versus starters and when they played versus bench players because that makes a huge difference. So its hard to really draw anything conclusive here without being unfair to Mo and Foye since they played way more vs starters than the others.

I think that's a fair point about playing against starters, but I think you're understating the significant of the 0.5% difference in eFG%. That's not a trivial difference over the large number of minutes we're talking about.

reapaman wrote:If there were was a big difference in their defensive skills then you should see that Foye for example should be much better with Hayward than Mo instead of just a little bit better (or worse in the case of Carroll and Foye) but thats not the case.

Given the different positions involved here I'm a little confused about the point you're trying to make.

the links and list StocktonShorts provided clearly shows that there is a difference in who starts or play together. saying that it doesn't matter who starts simply isn't true. if that's the case, we might as well start jerel mcneal and the murph.

anyway, while reapa does have a point when pointing that the data doesn't separate when a lineup played versus starters and when they played versus bench players, it also doesn't take into account rebounding. and the fact that mo+foye were historically bad in that aspect is indisputable. it is, quite simply, a fact. and it also so happens that rebounding is one of burks' strengths. rebounding is also part of defense.