Around the NBA, Season 2016-2017

[AingesBurner]

Those dirty ass Warriors make me wish the NBA still had physical enforcers in the league, you want to play dirty, game on, Curry's glass ankles will be my target and getting so far under Green's skin that he wants to kick or take a swing at me so he gets suspended.

[Daddy 801]

Boston in the ECF finals.

Not great because Hayward looks at situation where he can walk into a team, get paid, and probably be in the ECF the next few years.

On the bright side their role players are going to get paid.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

Boston in the ECF finals.

Not great because Hayward looks at situation where he can walk into a team, get paid, and probably be in the ECF the next few years.

On the bright side their role players are going to get paid.

I don't think it matters either way.

Besides, the Celtics were on the verge of getting swept in round 1 before Rondo went down and they'll get swept by the Cavs.

[Daddy 801]

Boston in the ECF finals.

Not great because Hayward looks at situation where he can walk into a team, get paid, and probably be in the ECF the next few years.

On the bright side their role players are going to get paid.

I don't think it matters either way.

Besides, the Celtics were on the verge of getting swept in round 1 before Rondo went down and they'll get swept by the Cavs.

You really believe it doesn't matter?

Hayward can walk into a situation where his team has less competition, he is more likely to make the AllStar game, the team is more likely to make it to the conference finals, he will get more recognition and possibly marketing deals to offset any loss in leaving the Jazz contract on the table, a #1 offensive guy so he doesn't have to be the man, a team loaded with assets, and his old coach that he gets along with.

You don't think that matters?

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

Boston in the ECF finals.

Not great because Hayward looks at situation where he can walk into a team, get paid, and probably be in the ECF the next few years.

On the bright side their role players are going to get paid.

I don't think it matters either way.

Besides, the Celtics were on the verge of getting swept in round 1 before Rondo went down and they'll get swept by the Cavs.

You really believe it doesn't matter?

Hayward can walk into a situation where his team has less competition, he is more likely to make the AllStar game, the team is more likely to make it to the conference finals, he will get more recognition and possibly marketing deals to offset any loss in leaving the Jazz contract on the table, a #1 offensive guy so he doesn't have to be the man, a team loaded with assets, and his old coach that he gets along with.

You don't think that matters?

I REALLY hate this pattern of thinking.

The East has the defending champs, who just so happen to have LeBron FREAKING James (the basketball GOAT) still playing for them. I mean, for crying out loud, Kyle Lowry said himself that no one is closing the gap on LeBron anytime soon and reports are that he wants to come out West to get away from LeBron. Y'all honestly believe that an Eastern team has a better chance of winning a championship than a Western one? No. They don't. Not until LeBron retires or moves out West.

And let's just talk about the Celtics for a minute, alright? They were one injury away from being swept in the first round as the 1 seed. It's not like they've had some sort of incredibly dominant playoff run. And in this series against the Wizards, they were taken to 7 games by a team that has two guards and nobody else. Not exactly a great playoff showing. And when they get swept by the Cavs? Is that suppose to be some sort of accomplishment to hand their hat on? I just don't see how that's a more appealing situation than what he'd have here in Utah.

Plus, Utah is just as good or better than the Celtics. If Hayward wants to win a chip, he should go to the best team possible. That will be the Utah Jazz when he's hitting free agency.

Also, coach Quin has been his coach longer than coach Stevens ever was. Who's to stay that they don't have a better relationship now? Not only that, but we know that Hayward has a super close relationship with coach Bryant.

And what do you mean that Hayward will be more likely to make the all-star team in the East? He made it in the West this year, and it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon, so who cares? And he'll get more recognition by making the ASG in the West than he would in the East.

And do we really believe that Hayward is going to get MORE money from marketing deals playing for the Celtics? What exactly makes you think that? Gordon has tons of market sponsors here in Utah already and there's nothing to prove that he'll get any more in Boston. He's going to be second and perhaps even third fiddle in Boston, so what incentives do they have to market him more there when he could be better marketed as "the guy" here? I don't buy it.

So, ya... I really do think that it doesn't matter whatsoever.

[stitches]

Yes, because every player thinks of himself - "only if I could be second option instead of first. That would be great. I will have a midget PG who hogs the ball and then I will have to cover for him on D all the time, but to make it more interesting, I won't have Gobert to help, I will have to do most of it myself. That's my dream scenario. Like... remember the Trey Burke-Enes Kanter days? Well, wasn't that fabulous? I can't wait to get back to that".

edit: For the record - I'm not saying Alfonso=IT(obviously IT is a tremendous offensive player, while Trey should be out of the league). I'm saying they play very similar roles offensively and are comparable as defenders.

[KqWIN]

It's undeniable that the West is a tougher road than the East. The Celtics also have better assets moving forward and are more likely to be willing to pay the tax. The argument that the Jazz are better than the Celtics holds no water because 1) the Jazz are barely if at all better than the Celtics and 2) the Celtics don't have Hayward. If the Celtics are close to the Jazz without Hayward, of course they're going to be better than the Jazz once they add him.

I don't understand how anyone can say that Utah is a better basketball situation than Boston. Gobert might be the best player on either team, but that's about it. If Hayward's decision is purely, 100% championship or bust (which it isn't), Boston is ahead.

[stitches]

It's undeniable that the West is a tougher road than the East. The Celtics also have better assets moving forward and are more likely to be willing to pay the tax. The argument that the Jazz are better than the Celtics holds no water because 1) the Jazz are barely if at all better than the Celtics and 2) the Celtics don't have Hayward. If the Celtics are close to the Jazz without Hayward, of course they're going to be better than the Jazz once they add him.

I don't understand how anyone can say that Utah is a better basketball situation than Boston. Gobert might be the best player on either team, but that's about it. If Hayward's decision is purely, 100% championship or bust (which it isn't), Boston is ahead.

I don't think so. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think when healthy we have much better roster across the board. They do have better high end future assets though. We have the better C, we have the better PF, and we have comparable guards. There is a reason why we had better net rating than Boston, while suffering much worse injuries than them. We simply have the better high end talent on the roster right now.

[KqWIN]

It's undeniable that the West is a tougher road than the East. The Celtics also have better assets moving forward and are more likely to be willing to pay the tax. The argument that the Jazz are better than the Celtics holds no water because 1) the Jazz are barely if at all better than the Celtics and 2) the Celtics don't have Hayward. If the Celtics are close to the Jazz without Hayward, of course they're going to be better than the Jazz once they add him.

I don't understand how anyone can say that Utah is a better basketball situation than Boston. Gobert might be the best player on either team, but that's about it. If Hayward's decision is purely, 100% championship or bust (which it isn't), Boston is ahead.

I don't think so. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think when healthy we have much better roster across the board. They do have better high end future assets though. We have the better C, we have the better PF, and we have comparable guards. There is a reason why we had better net rating than Boston, while suffering much worse injuries than them. We simply have the better high end talent on the roster right now.

Hayward is part of the high end talent on the Jazz, and he would be the one leaving. If you put him on the Celtics, I'm sure they would have had a better Net Rating than us. You've said it yourself many times. If Hayward is off this Jazz team, they are a mediocre team. The Celtics are better than that without Hayward, now add Hayward on top off that. Jazz w/Hayward versus the Celtics without him isn't the comparison we are making here.

Some more things that you mentioned (I think) is that you believe Jaylen Brown is a future all star, and that you would trade Gobert for the Brooklyn picks. So essentially you have a future all star in ranks and the assets to acquire a Rudy Gobert or Jimmy Butler. What do the Jazz have on deck? Some late first round picks and second rounders that they continue to throw in the garbage?

You also know that this Jazz team cannot stay together. Hill is almost certainly gone, and if he's back, Favors and Hood are gone. You can only realistically pay one of those guys, and none of them are better than Al Horford.

"If healthy" is also a pie in the sky statement about the Jazz at this point. They haven't been healthy.

[stitches]

No, I compared the rosters assuming Hayward is on both teams. I think Hayward on Boston won't have the same value as Hayward on the Jazz, simply because we don't have a ball-dominant midget PG. I do think even without Hayward, we have the higher end talent. I think Gobert is better than Horford(and anyone on their roster really) and I think Favors is better than ... whoever they put at the 4. I also think healthy Hood is comparable to AB, and Hill is comparable to IT(this one I don't expect to win, but I value my PG not being a complete and utter disaster on D), especially if I don't have somebody to cover for him at the rim.

About Brown - yes, I think he has high (maybe all-star) upside... but that upside will go to waste the more he has to sit behind a Hayward, for example... I wonder if/when he will overtake Crowder? About the pick vs Gobert - my argument is more about roster construction and rebuild than an argument about competing in the near future. I also happen to think teams are risk averse and don't do this type of trades often enough. This is why Boston has been trying to trade for a star for 3 years and has ZERO to show for it with their assets depreciating in value with every passing minute. That's why I wouldn't pencil it in as a certainty... or even high probability that BOS will be able to trade for a star.

About us being in a money crunch - yes we are... and Boston will be in the exact same situation the moment they sign Hayward... so no. I don't take this into account. If we have to lose Favors next summer, they will have to lose IT or Bradley or both next summer.

[Daddy 801]

I don't think it matters either way.

Besides, the Celtics were on the verge of getting swept in round 1 before Rondo went down and they'll get swept by the Cavs.

You really believe it doesn't matter?

Hayward can walk into a situation where his team has less competition, he is more likely to make the AllStar game, the team is more likely to make it to the conference finals, he will get more recognition and possibly marketing deals to offset any loss in leaving the Jazz contract on the table, a #1 offensive guy so he doesn't have to be the man, a team loaded with assets, and his old coach that he gets along with.

You don't think that matters?

I REALLY hate this pattern of thinking.

The East has the defending champs, who just so happen to have LeBron FREAKING James (the basketball GOAT) still playing for them. I mean, for crying out loud, Kyle Lowry said himself that no one is closing the gap on LeBron anytime soon and reports are that he wants to come out West to get away from LeBron. Y'all honestly believe that an Eastern team has a better chance of winning a championship than a Western one? No. They don't. Not until LeBron retires or moves out West.

And let's just talk about the Celtics for a minute, alright? They were one injury away from being swept in the first round as the 1 seed. It's not like they've had some sort of incredibly dominant playoff run. And in this series against the Wizards, they were taken to 7 games by a team that has two guards and nobody else. Not exactly a great playoff showing. And when they get swept by the Cavs? Is that suppose to be some sort of accomplishment to hand their hat on? I just don't see how that's a more appealing situation than what he'd have here in Utah.

Plus, Utah is just as good or better than the Celtics. If Hayward wants to win a chip, he should go to the best team possible. That will be the Utah Jazz when he's hitting free agency.

Also, coach Quin has been his coach longer than coach Stevens ever was. Who's to stay that they don't have a better relationship now? Not only that, but we know that Hayward has a super close relationship with coach Bryant.

And what do you mean that Hayward will be more likely to make the all-star team in the East? He made it in the West this year, and it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon, so who cares? And he'll get more recognition by making the ASG in the West than he would in the East.

And do we really believe that Hayward is going to get MORE money from marketing deals playing for the Celtics? What exactly makes you think that? Gordon has tons of market sponsors here in Utah already and there's nothing to prove that he'll get any more in Boston. He's going to be second and perhaps even third fiddle in Boston, so what incentives do they have to market him more there when he could be better marketed as "the guy" here? I don't buy it.

So, ya... I really do think that it doesn't matter whatsoever.

It really doesn't bother me if you REALLY hate that line of thinking, because it is based on the reality of the situation.

Teams from both conferences have a giant to over come. But let's think about which one is easier in the next 3-5 years. LeBron is probably the GOAT. But father time catches up to everyone. The core of the Warriors is 4-6 years younger than LeBron. If LeBron gets hurt the Celts are in the Finals. If Durant gets hurt the Warriors are in the finals. If Curry gets hurt the Warriors are in the finals. If Klay gets hurt the Warriors are in the finals. If Dray gets hurt the Warriors are still in the finals. The Warriors could realistically have two of their guys get hurt and still make it to the finals. Going forward getting through the Cavs will be easier.

Now lets look at a few facts.

- What Lowry says is irrelevant. Plenty of guards in the West are getting smoked by the Warriors. See CP3 for an example.

- The statement that the Celts were one injury away form being swept is not provable and really doesn't matter. They made it past and have been playing great.

- The Celts got the number one seed. Either they are a better team than the Jazz or the East is significantly easier. And it's always easier to win with home court advantage. At least one of those two things is true, possibly both.

- The Celts have better draft assets going forward. Not even close really.

- Getting marketing contracts in large markets is easier.

Now lets look at my opinion.

- I have said MANY times I believe the Jazz are a better team in relation to the league as a whole. I think it is likely the Celts would beat the Jazz in a playoff series though. Our main advantage is minimized with their playing style. But Quin has proven to be crafty so I would not put it past him to figure a way to beat the Celts even with Gobert being minimized. It would have been my dream scenario for those two teams to meet in the playoffs.

- The Celts play 5 out. It is easier for guards to get their numbers in that style/system. You don't think Hayward notices that?

- The Jazz are a better team WITH Hayward, the Celts are better team WITH Hayward. I think this is pretty easy to see. Without Hayward the Jazz are in trouble. The Celts are already the number 1 seed already.

- I agree the hype about Quin vs. Stevans is is just that. I think Quin is better. The only thing with Stevans is that Hayward has an established GOOD relationship with him. It makes it an easier transition. Not a huge deal. But worth noting.

- I believe Hayward and Bryant have a great relationship. But Hayward could simply tell the Celts he will sign if they overpay Bryant to come and be his personal trainer. If I was Ainge I would do that in a heartbeat if it meant getting Hayward. Bryant says hell yes to a 500,000 dollar signing bonus.

- Hayward has an easier route to CONTINUE making the All-Star team in the east. And I believe he would have an easier time making ALL NBA. Part of the reason would be simply due to him being in a larger market and national media hyping him more. That is complete BS, but the reality of the situation. You don't think the homer Bill Simmons would be saying all the things Locke has been saying for years? You don't think Bill would be talking about how Hayward is the most underrated SF/SG in the league? Of course he would.

- Hayward would have more opportunities to get endorsements in Boston. No idea way you say Hayward has great contracts right now. A local moving company and a video game company that would have given him a contract no matter where he was are great contract (maybe he has ones I am not aware of?)?? Ainge could get on the phone and get Hayward better deals IMO.


I think Hayward stays. I have trust in DL. I like Quin better. I think it is probably 60% he stays. But I will not be surprised if he leaves for Boston at all and there is A LOT of good things to go to Boston for. And if they win even a game or two against the Cavs I think it makes a big difference. We should hope they get absolutely crushed.

No idea why peeps are hating on IT. Hayward is not a last shot type of guy, IT is. Perfect scenario for Hayward.

[Inigo Montoya]

Is it strange that hardly any awards had been announced so far? Can't remember at which time it usually happens, but I get the impression most awards (MVP, DPOY etc.) in recent years had already been announced by this point.

[Rauxcee]

Is it strange that hardly any awards had been announced so far? Can't remember at which time it usually happens, but I get the impression most awards (MVP, DPOY etc.) in recent years had already been announced by this point.

It's because they changed it and are saving it for the awards show on June 26th.

(Which I think is stupid)

[Inigo Montoya]

Thanks for the info.

And yes, it is indeed stupid.

[Denizfeital]

Thanks for the info.

And yes, it is indeed stupid.

It is going to happen after the Finals. Incredibly stupid. Its going to be like "Hey remember two months ago when that guy was a triple double machine? Here is the trophy"

[stitches]

I'm not gonna lie... I'm having a severe case of schadenfreude.

Apologies to Daddy 801.

[Rauxcee]

I'm not gonna lie... I'm having a severe case of schadenfreude.

This is helping the Jazz out so much. Boston is going to have to make a move now if they want Hayward. Jazz were missing Hill, and Gobert, Favors, and Hood were all injured and they were much more competitive then Boston. If it's a decision about which team is more capable of competing between the two, easy decision to make.

[stitches]

I'm not gonna lie... I'm having a severe case of schadenfreude.

This is helping the Jazz out so much. Boston is going to have to make a move now if they want Hayward. Jazz were missing Hill, and Gobert, Favors, and Hood were all injured and they were much more competitive then Boston. If it's a decision about which team is more capable of competing between the two, easy decision to make.

I've been saying this since... forever. People don't get that those cute midget PGs don't work against the best teams in the playoffs. I'm kind of shocked they even got this far. They were about to go out against the freaking Bulls and only an injury to Rondo of all people saved them and then needed Kelly Olynyk's game of his career to beat the Wizards.

[Jazz Dog]

I keep finding it interesting that one of the arguments for Hayward leaving is an easier path to being an All-Star. I guess Lebron, "the Alphabet", Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Joel Embiid, Kristaps Portingis, Paul Milsap and Kevin Love are all moving to the western conference. His numbers go down in Boston with IT running the point and his all star chances also diminish in the east. If he wants to continue a upward projectory, he stays in Utah.

[stitches]

I keep finding it interesting that one of the arguments for Hayward leaving is an easier path to being an All-Star. I guess Lebron, "the Alphabet", Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Joel Embiid, Kristaps Portingis, Paul Milsap and Kevin Love are all moving to the western conference. His numbers go down in Boston with IT running the point and his all star chances also diminish in the east. If he wants to continue a upward projectory, he stays in Utah.

Only LeBron is really in this conversation when it comes to easier paths. The Jazz beat a better team than any team in the East sans CLE. There are at least 5 teams in the West that are better than the best in the East when you exclude LeBron, IMO.

Forget about it, misread your post. LOL.