Jazz 2017-2018 Season Thread

[outerspacefella]

Either is our coaching staff asking players to do contra natura things, or it is just Rubio killing us. If I'm forced to bet I''d go with the later...

I keep repeating it...we have not tried to allow Rubio to play his natural game so far. The "system" is just forcing him into the opposite of what he is good at. Before you put him to rest, at least give him a chance to show what he can do. After all you're willing to hand the keys to a rookie, right?

I understand what you're saying, but Ricky has been really, and I mean really bad, truly bad, as bad as it comes. I'm starting to doubt if he will ever get another good contract.
Of course, it seems to be too much to let a rookie lead your team, but this kid is not the usual rookie...

[SoCalJazzFan]

Quinn's offense, from what I can gather, is built on the concept of creating an open shot, usually an outside shot. I would say that the cuts or drives or lobs to/at the rim are secondary. So, I decided to take a look at the Jazz shooting performance from 3pt in their wins and losses.

Not a huge surprise here, but in 4 of their 5 wins the Jazz shot nearly 40% on average (4 of 5 wins over 42%) on their 3s.

In their 8 losses they only averaged 31% 3pt. Only against the first game vs the TWolves (lost by 3pts) and the Rockets (top tier team that is hard to outscore) did they shoot the 3 ball well (41% and 38%).

Although Rubio has certainly contributed to the lower 3pt % over the last several games, it will be interesting to see if the Jazz can win if the other players collectively hit the long shot at a respectable clip even if the pnr, etc. is not working well.

[LesGrossman]

Dunno why the Rubio bashing is so high here. Everyone including Ricky had some great games, now everyone is struggling including the suppsed leaders. Gobert was awful Mitchell was awful in more games than they were good, so were the Joes and dont even get me started on Hood, yet all the talk here is about Rubio, who is the only one of all named above who never had a chance to show what he is good at - the classic point guard offense with him setting up and intiating the offense, probing and penetrating until he has set up a great shot for a teammate or himself. Yes i understand this isnt Quinn's offense, thats exactly the problem. This group can stick to his offense and continue to struggle, or he can understand that he lived off an exceptionally talented individual player in Hayward, and since he is gone, tehres a need to come up with something new.

THe greatest active coach, Pop, has changed his complete look every other year. Did he do it because he understood last years offense and defense were bad? Hardly, since they got him so many rings. It was because he understood he has different personnel and that, not his personal preferences, should determine what they run and how they defend.

[outerspacefella]

I don't think there's bashing at Rubio. He's just not playing well... it's hard for a guard to play the game without making a minimal decent rate on clear open looks.
Of course he's not the only one playing poorly... and not everyone here support or understand all of the coaching staff thing...
I would hate to give away 2 firsts only to find out we still lack the point guard we need... (obviously that's not on Rubio).

Hey, I'm pointing out hard at Rudy too... he's got to start making something else beyond open rolls or his game impact will diminish game by game...

[eLo]

Dunno why the Rubio bashing is so high here. Everyone including Ricky had some great games, now everyone is struggling including the suppsed leaders. Gobert was awful Mitchell was awful in more games than they were good, so were the Joes and dont even get me started on Hood, yet all the talk here is about Rubio, who is the only one of all named above who never had a chance to show what he is good at - the classic point guard offense with him setting up and intiating the offense, probing and penetrating until he has set up a great shot for a teammate or himself. Yes i understand this isnt Quinn's offense, thats exactly the problem. This group can stick to his offense and continue to struggle, or he can understand that he lived off an exceptionally talented individual player in Hayward, and since he is gone, tehres a need to come up with something new.

THe greatest active coach, Pop, has changed his complete look every other year. Did he do it because he understood last years offense and defense were bad? Hardly, since they got him so many rings. It was because he understood he has different personnel and that, not his personal preferences, should determine what they run and how they defend.

on the beginning of the rs he was also praised very high, i guess there are many problems, Snyder tactic, new set of players, main thing- it was obvious offense will be bad and by surprise it is because of that people expect from Ricki that he will be a reliable shooter which he is not, and thats from all this bashing come from. When people will forget how great Gob was last season same story will be here, that he supposed be a leader because he said this and that in summer etc. though seasons need some one to step up and honestly majority of players cant do more from what they are know for

[SoCalJazzFan]

Quinn's offense, from what I can gather, is built on the concept of creating an open shot, usually an outside shot. I would say that the cuts or drives or lobs to/at the rim are secondary. So, I decided to take a look at the Jazz shooting performance from 3pt in their wins and losses.

Not a huge surprise here, but in 4 of their 5 wins the Jazz shot nearly 40% on average (4 of 5 wins over 42%) on their 3s.

In their 8 losses they only averaged 31% 3pt. Only against the first game vs the TWolves (lost by 3pts) and the Rockets (top tier team that is hard to outscore) did they shoot the 3 ball well (41% and 38%).

Although Rubio has certainly contributed to the lower 3pt % over the last several games, it will be interesting to see if the Jazz can win if the other players collectively hit the long shot at a respectable clip even if the pnr, etc. is not working well.

Digging deeper, I find this interesting:
Player (3pt% wins/3pt% losses)
Rubio (37.8/10.3)
Hood (53.6/29.2)
DM (33.3/30.2)
AB (60/50)
Ingles (41.3/41.3)

Although it is not the sole indicator, and there is noise from game to game in a small sample size, I still find it interesting, although not too surprising, that Rubio's and Hood's shooting appear to be related to the Jazz winning or losing. This is what most matches up to my eye test as to how the Jazz do from game to game.

[Daddy 801]

It's quite astounding that people are still dreaming about Kanter. WOW! Of all the great players we've lost... Kanter. Really?

I personally don't want or miss Kanter. But I do respect his "toughness", "**** talking", "competitiveness", or whatever you want to call it he has displayed the last few years.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[TNJazz]

While Rubio's shooting has been simply atrocious the last several games (I couldn't watch the Brooklyn game due to it being NBA TV televised, even though have the League Pass, that's another gripe for another time), it is Hood that is killing us, in my opinion. Ingles is trying to do too much for his skill set; Gobert is still developing better offensive moves and will plateau soon if not already which should be more than enough to continue having a big impact; DM is a rookie that is killing it one night, then off the next, but seems to be on more than off; Favors is the lost man out there. Not sure how you can have 9 points and 8 boards before half and only record one more rebound before being sat due to ineffectiveness, but Hood is not living up to what his preseason expectations seemed to have been. Volume shooting at a very poor rate and almost all from outside spells trouble for the team. Of all the mainstays, his struggles are the most troublesome from my eye test. Not sure how they get out of this without some major overhaul or as many have supported a tank job to try and maneuver for improvement next year. While management stated from the beginning this was going to be a defensive team and have a lot of team movement on offense, which sounds like very entertaining basketball, its not been much fun to watch lately. This is where the catching needs to be better and adapt to the abilities of the payers strengths rather than stubbornly stick with a concept that doesn't fit and/or isn't working. Just look at NY now that Horny doesn't have to utilize the vaunted triangle offense anymore!

[Inigo Montoya]

Dunno why the Rubio bashing is so high here. Everyone including Ricky had some great games, now everyone is struggling including the suppsed leaders. Gobert was awful Mitchell was awful in more games than they were good, so were the Joes and dont even get me started on Hood, yet all the talk here is about Rubio, who is the only one of all named above who never had a chance to show what he is good at - the classic point guard offense with him setting up and intiating the offense, probing and penetrating until he has set up a great shot for a teammate or himself. Yes i understand this isnt Quinn's offense, thats exactly the problem. This group can stick to his offense and continue to struggle, or he can understand that he lived off an exceptionally talented individual player in Hayward, and since he is gone, tehres a need to come up with something new.

THe greatest active coach, Pop, has changed his complete look every other year. Did he do it because he understood last years offense and defense were bad? Hardly, since they got him so many rings. It was because he understood he has different personnel and that, not his personal preferences, should determine what they run and how they defend.

I don't think it is Rubio bashing. Everyone knew what kind of a player he is, what his skill-set is and what his play style is. He's a good player. Unfortunately, he does not fit to the style this team plays, which was also known by everyone but the Jazz's front office, apparently. Is this system that good and that important, especially with this current roster composition? I'd say no, but the coach is the one who calls the shots, like it or not.

Most of what is happening is not Rubio's falut. He's playing bad not because he isn't good, but because he is forced to play in a role and system that takes away all of his strengths. This is much more of a management and coaching failure that it is Rubio's fault. I long wanted him on the Jazz and under a different system and coach he could have been amazing (Sloan and his flex offense) but that is not what we have. I didn't expect much from this season but thought that at least I'll get to see Rubio play, which is a beautiful thing to watch. Alas, this system is such a bad fit that we didn't even get to see that and his spectacular passing. His defense is still appreciated, though.

[AingesBurner]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yadyr2ku

[AingesBurner]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycrt2mkn

[AingesBurner]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycrt2mkn

[SoCalJazzFan]

I dunno, shooting 1/19 3pt (5.3%) over the last 5 games (Rubio) is horrendously bad. If he could just shoot at least 30%from behind the arc things would flow so much better, as evidenced in the games when he did shoot well and the Jazz usually won.

[LesGrossman]

Rubio is in a slump. The quotas we see right now are the worst of his career so we all can be optimistic that they will go way up again. Maybe its mental maybe its some tweaked ankle or back he doesnt talk about in public, who knows.

I don't think it is Rubio bashing. Everyone knew what kind of a player he is, what his skill-set is and what his play style is. He's a good player. Unfortunately, he does not fit to the style this team plays, which was also known by everyone but the Jazz's front office, apparently. Is this system that good and that important, especially with this current roster composition? I'd say no, but the coach is the one who calls the shots, like it or not.

Most of what is happening is not Rubio's falut. He's playing bad not because he isn't good, but because he is forced to play in a role and system that takes away all of his strengths. This is much more of a management and coaching failure that it is Rubio's fault. I long wanted him on the Jazz and under a different system and coach he could have been amazing (Sloan and his flex offense) but that is not what we have. I didn't expect much from this season but thought that at least I'll get to see Rubio play, which is a beautiful thing to watch. Alas, this system is such a bad fit that we didn't even get to see that and his spectacular passing. His defense is still appreciated, though.

There were some posts claiming he had no place in the NBA and similar nonsense, irritatingly posted by wolves fans who claim they "dont care about him" any more but seem to flood this board to badmouth him. As for your asssessment i find it pretty fair. What i'd add is that not only does this offense not suit Rubio, iit doesnt seem to fit anyone on the roster. Rubio has been out of the game and all scoring came from individual talent, like Mitchell, going 1 on 3 and coming through. The system needs to be changed dramatically with or without Rubio, because the Jazz lost a few very talented scorers in Hill, Hayward and Johnson but added someone who is able to single handedly shake up the defense and create great opportunities for his team, something Hill definitely could not do. Again, unless an equivalent for Hayward comes in very soon, this system is not going to work regardless of the Rubio situation.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycrt2mkn

I'm not very good udnerstanding the economy of trades, cap space etc.. Could the Jazz claim Mindaugas Kuzminskas? I think the Knicks made a mistake letting him go. Good shooter, good fundamentals as far as i remember.

[Inigo Montoya]

here were some posts claiming he had no place in the NBA and similar nonsense,

Yeah...no. That's not true and way too harsh. Not down with that.

What i'd add is that not only does this offense not suit Rubio, iit doesnt seem to fit anyone on the roster.

Sure it does--last sesaon's roster. Oh, wait, Hayward and Hill aren't here anymore? Woops. Can someone please tell Snyder that?

[stitches]

I have to admit something. I can't go fully hype mode on Mitchell... I don't know why. I really really really like what I'm seeing skill-wise from him, but there's something that's just stopping me from fully going gaga with him. Maybe I don't want to get disappointed if he turns into an inefficient chucker... I don't know...

[Inigo Montoya]

I have to admit something. I can't go fully hype mode on Mitchell... I don't know why. I really really really like what I'm seeing skill-wise from him, but there's something that's just stopping me from fully going gaga with him. Maybe I don't want to get disappointed if he turns into an inefficient chucker... I don't know...

He's leaving in 6 years so you don't want to get too attached.

[stitches]

I have to admit something. I can't go fully hype mode on Mitchell... I don't know why. I really really really like what I'm seeing skill-wise from him, but there's something that's just stopping me from fully going gaga with him. Maybe I don't want to get disappointed if he turns into an inefficient chucker... I don't know...

He's leaving in 6 years so you don't want to get too attached.

That's sad.

[SoCalJazzFan]

I have to admit something. I can't go fully hype mode on Mitchell... I don't know why. I really really really like what I'm seeing skill-wise from him, but there's something that's just stopping me from fully going gaga with him. Maybe I don't want to get disappointed if he turns into an inefficient chucker... I don't know...

If it helps, I often watch the opposing team's broadcast on LP and the commentators, particularly the ex-player commentator, rave about Mitchell and his potential.

[AingesBurner]

I have to admit something. I can't go fully hype mode on Mitchell... I don't know why. I really really really like what I'm seeing skill-wise from him, but there's something that's just stopping me from fully going gaga with him. Maybe I don't want to get disappointed if he turns into an inefficient chucker... I don't know...

He's leaving in 6 years so you don't want to get too attached.

Honestly Donovan Mitchell doesn't seem like a snake oil salesman, I am excited to see what he, Dante, and Rudy can do.