Game 14: Minnesota Timberwolves (7-5) @ Utah Jazz (6-7)

[Andri]

Accept that this isnt the Spurs. Many of the players dont have the ability to make quick, good decisions, but some, like Hood, Donovan, Thabo or Favors, are specialists. Use them to their strengths, dont force them into roles they arent comfortable with..

The thing is, the Spurs can also run a more complex motion offense, not only because the IQ you pointed out, but because their players have more offensive repertoire, as individuals and as a group. We have no player to play in the post or from the elbow. We have poor spacing. And the ones with handles can't finsh well, and the ones with good finishing have issues dribbling in traffic (except from Mitchell).

So our motion offense is an ugly loop of ball handler in the perimeter after a couple of perimeter passes or hand-offs without any progress (it seems designed only to consume some seconds), screen without continuation for anyone not named Slow Joe, penetration against a crowded paint, kick-out to the perimeter, a pump fake, and screen to start again… until the clock is about to expire, where we force a shoot in a semi-iso. That’s it

[Crunch 99]

I missed some of Q3 and all of Q4, but it seemed like Thibs had his team pretty well prepared to defend Favors, or at least ready to collapse on Fav to prevent him from easily rolling to the basket.

[Zeitgeister]

Rondo is a dinosaur and Parker had a pull up jumper you had to respect. Rondo's game hasn't worked the last 5 years. Also, Parker was one of the best PGs attacking space and attacking the rim. There is no comparison between him and Rubio. They shouldn't ever be put in the same sentence.

Watch what from the previous game? A BKN team that doesn't even care to defend? Sure, you will get a team once every 10 games that's not well prepared or out of it and you gonna make some things happen. Why take the previous one game and not the 5 before it? Or the one today? What's the difference? It's not in the way we played. We play the same way every time. This is the NBA. Rubio is a talented player and will have good-to-great games once in a while. The question is can he do it consistently? Over the long run I don't see Rubio as a PG-solution for this team... especially if you have Gobert at the 5. I've been saying this since day -365. Rubio is an extremely hard PG to build both a team and a system around in the modern day NBA. We don't have the personnel and we don't have the system for it. It's much easier to just change the PG than to change all the rest of the team. Rubio is good but he's not good enough to make you build your whole team around him. At the end of the day it will come down to Rubio or Gobert and the Jazz will choose Gobert. EASILY!

You are spot on. Rubio is a seriously flawed player and I have to think at least a big part of that is on him. he's been in the NBA for years and his jump shot is still awful, he has no floater game, he cannot post up these are failings on his part. The book has been out on Rubio and he could finish the season shooting 50/40/90 and teams still wouldn't respect him for a long while.

[stra0448]

What drives me mad about this game is that we didn’t play to Wolves weaknesses. They are one of the worst defending the pick&roll, especially with Teague and Towns, and protecting the rim. Our core plan tonight should have been Ricky and Favors P&R to death, with Ingles, Mitchell, Hood and Jerebko spacing the court. Don’t tell it wouldn’t have worked because of Rubio’s shooting, because we simply didn’t try it. We try to play isos instead, with Wiggins on Mitchell, or P&R against Butler, their best defender.

[mplsfonz23]

Rubio PnR is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. He gains no advantage in the PnR, but he also provides no spacing off the ball. This is turning into the Exum situation where people are blaming the system for his lack of usage. Just like Exum, it's a lack of ability that's limiting his involvement. Rubio can do as much or as little as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that he is terrible at capitalizing on the opportunities that system creates. He's the absolute worst type of PG to be playing here.

There is no place for him in Utah unless there is a complete overhaul in the way we play. Even if we had the overhaul, the surrounding players around wouldn't fit in any system and he'd still struggle.

I dont know why you keep repeating this when it is obvious by the results that it isnt true. This aint no computer game, you dont need the Curry "pull up from the logo" to "gain an advantage" in the pnr. This is his 7th season and those who watched him know that no matter how the defense sets up for the pnr he will create an open shot for the roll man or the guy covered by the helper. Its inexplicable that Snyder makes the same mistakes Thibs did for half a season. Simply inexplicable.

I think you got that part wrong. I have watched teams sag off of Rubio and double the roll man because Rubio CAN'T shoot! It's as simple as that. I have seen him play for 6 years now, and every preseason they ask him what he worked on over the summer, and he always says his shot. So he's had seven years to fix that busted ass jumper, and sorry to tell ya'll It aint coming.

Watch the game again from last night, Teague didn't even put a hand up when Rubio had 6 open looks from 3. But rubes in Minny know his game. Even though he's a good guy, and does a lot of things at an elite level, if he can't shoot, he's no good to you down the stretch of close games.

[mplsfonz23]

Well maybe we should simply count the number of pnr played with Favors and see the number of great shots resulting to verify this theory? Because in the end thats all that matters. Rubio doesnt stun defenses with his pull up shot but NO defense ignores his dribble drive attack, in fact he draws two defenders often enough, resulting in short pocket passes. You do NOT need the defender to go over, thats just not true. Tony Parker, Rondo would never had any success if it was. The screen alone, even if going under, already shakes up the defense and gives the advantage he needs to penetrate and put the defender on his heels. We just need to go to the previous game to actually see it work. Why go away from something that works?

You cannot be serious.
Rubio has missed ALOT of WIDE OPEN layups off the P&R. Teams don't even try to defend RR. He had a flash game against Portland, but days like he had against the Wolves will be plenty. When he scores, most of it will come from the FT line. That he is good at.

[LesGrossman]

Well maybe we should simply count the number of pnr played with Favors and see the number of great shots resulting to verify this theory? Because in the end thats all that matters. Rubio doesnt stun defenses with his pull up shot but NO defense ignores his dribble drive attack, in fact he draws two defenders often enough, resulting in short pocket passes. You do NOT need the defender to go over, thats just not true. Tony Parker, Rondo would never had any success if it was. The screen alone, even if going under, already shakes up the defense and gives the advantage he needs to penetrate and put the defender on his heels. We just need to go to the previous game to actually see it work. Why go away from something that works?

You cannot be serious.
Rubio has missed ALOT of WIDE OPEN layups off the P&R. Teams don't even try to defend RR. He had a flash game against Portland, but days like he had against the Wolves will be plenty. When he scores, most of it will come from the FT line. That he is good at.

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble. Apart from taht he has the dribble penetration under the basket and frequently draws two defenders. If you watched him six years and didnt see literally houndreds of assists off that situation then i'm not sure WHAT you watched. You seem to hold a grudge for some reason; i'm aware of his shortcomings but to deny any value or skill the way some of you guys do is just ridiculous imho. Apparently most HC's and GM's dont seem to agree with you either. Of course a bunch of "those" guys come out of the woods now when he has a really hard time, you were nowhere to be seen when the season started though.

[mplsfonz23]

Well maybe we should simply count the number of pnr played with Favors and see the number of great shots resulting to verify this theory? Because in the end thats all that matters. Rubio doesnt stun defenses with his pull up shot but NO defense ignores his dribble drive attack, in fact he draws two defenders often enough, resulting in short pocket passes. You do NOT need the defender to go over, thats just not true. Tony Parker, Rondo would never had any success if it was. The screen alone, even if going under, already shakes up the defense and gives the advantage he needs to penetrate and put the defender on his heels. We just need to go to the previous game to actually see it work. Why go away from something that works?

You cannot be serious.
Rubio has missed ALOT of WIDE OPEN layups off the P&R. Teams don't even try to defend RR. He had a flash game against Portland, but days like he had against the Wolves will be plenty. When he scores, most of it will come from the FT line. That he is good at.

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble. Apart from taht he has the dribble penetration under the basket and frequently draws two defenders. If you watched him six years and didnt see literally houndreds of assists off that situation then i'm not sure WHAT you watched. You seem to hold a grudge for some reason; i'm aware of his shortcomings but to deny any value or skill the way some of you guys do is just ridiculous imho. Apparently most HC's and GM's dont seem to agree with you either. Of course a bunch of "those" guys come out of the woods now when he has a really hard time, you were nowhere to be seen when the season started though.

Listen,
I never said he had no value. MY POINT IS he CANNOT SHOOT or MAKE LAYUPS with any consistency. Ask ANY Wolves fan and they will tell you the same. He IS good at just about everything else. But you will change your tune when you get sick of the losing.

You are right, I was on the Wolves board with the same takes. Rubio started somewhat strong, then teams watched a little film on him and figured out they really don't need to guard him, (again) because he isn't going to shoot it. He will surprise them every now and then and make a shot, but I am sure they can live with those. Make excuses for him because that's what we did for 6 years. Hope your FO isn't as bad as ours was.

[mplsfonz23]

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble..

Well lets hope the NBA players don't take the one shot you seem to think he has away.
I'll come back at the end of the season and see if you still like your starting PG. (If Exum doesn't take him out.)

[stitches]

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble..

Well lets hope the NBA players don't take the one shot you seem to think he has away.
I'll come back at the end of the season and see if you still like your starting PG. (If Exum doesn't take him out.)

One of my bold predictions from pre-season was that Exum will take his spot by the end of the year. Unfortunately we don't know if Exum will even return this season, so... might be a moot point ...

Watch on YouTube

[mplsfonz23]

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble..

Well lets hope the NBA players don't take the one shot you seem to think he has away.
I'll come back at the end of the season and see if you still like your starting PG. (If Exum doesn't take him out.)

One of my bold predictions from pre-season was that Exum will take his spot by the end of the year. Unfortunately we don't know if Exum will even return this season, so... might be a moot point ...

Watch on YouTube

Too bad about Exum.

[Quentin]

Well maybe we should simply count the number of pnr played with Favors and see the number of great shots resulting to verify this theory? Because in the end thats all that matters. Rubio doesnt stun defenses with his pull up shot but NO defense ignores his dribble drive attack, in fact he draws two defenders often enough, resulting in short pocket passes. You do NOT need the defender to go over, thats just not true. Tony Parker, Rondo would never had any success if it was. The screen alone, even if going under, already shakes up the defense and gives the advantage he needs to penetrate and put the defender on his heels. We just need to go to the previous game to actually see it work. Why go away from something that works?

You cannot be serious.
Rubio has missed ALOT of WIDE OPEN layups off the P&R. Teams don't even try to defend RR. He had a flash game against Portland, but days like he had against the Wolves will be plenty. When he scores, most of it will come from the FT line. That he is good at.

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble. Apart from taht he has the dribble penetration under the basket and frequently draws two defenders. If you watched him six years and didnt see literally houndreds of assists off that situation then i'm not sure WHAT you watched. You seem to hold a grudge for some reason; i'm aware of his shortcomings but to deny any value or skill the way some of you guys do is just ridiculous imho. Apparently most HC's and GM's dont seem to agree with you either. Of course a bunch of "those" guys come out of the woods now when he has a really hard time, you were nowhere to be seen when the season started though.

Are you serious? That's what you said to me when I criticized Rubio. So we know, if any poster says something negative about Rubio, they must hold a grudge!

[MTJazzv3]

All the backstory Wolves fans love/hate on Rubio is interesting. My take is he is dealing with an offense that he is not suited for plus he honestly isn't playing with the fire we saw early in the season. Plus he is an emotional guy and he definitely looks like he is not having fun right now. He needs to put a smile on that face. The whole Jazz team needs to start playing with a little more passion and fun. I'm sure every guy on the team except Spida, Rudy and Sef are a bit in their heads in the wrong way right now. After last year's return to relevancy after the "Years That Can't be Named" I don't think the team is relishing the prospect of a season of suckage - doesn't do anyone's career or life better. The Hayward and Hill thingy look huge all of the sudden (and again). It is early in the season to start losing your patient fan base after last year's "above expectations and on the way up" vibe - but it is happening. I still think the story is told after 30 games. The tank commanders are looking like the horse to bet on right now but one never knows.

[KqWIN]

Rubio PnR is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. He gains no advantage in the PnR, but he also provides no spacing off the ball. This is turning into the Exum situation where people are blaming the system for his lack of usage. Just like Exum, it's a lack of ability that's limiting his involvement. Rubio can do as much or as little as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that he is terrible at capitalizing on the opportunities that system creates. He's the absolute worst type of PG to be playing here.

There is no place for him in Utah unless there is a complete overhaul in the way we play. Even if we had the overhaul, the surrounding players around wouldn't fit in any system and he'd still struggle.

I dont know why you keep repeating this when it is obvious by the results that it isnt true. This aint no computer game, you dont need the Curry "pull up from the logo" to "gain an advantage" in the pnr. This is his 7th season and those who watched him know that no matter how the defense sets up for the pnr he will create an open shot for the roll man or the guy covered by the helper. Its inexplicable that Snyder makes the same mistakes Thibs did for half a season. Simply inexplicable.

I could say the same thing back. Why do you keep repeating yourself when the results obviously show that what you’re saying is not true? The results are bad, very bad, and it’s because Rubio is horrendous fit for both the system and roster composition. Neither the team or Rubio as an individual is doing well. When Rubio does play well, it is because he shoots well and not because of his passing. There are little to no opportunities to take advantage of his passing, and that’s something that will not change unless there is a complete overhaul of the system and roster in place.

You don’t have to shoot from the logo, but you have to put the pressure on the defense somehow. Whether Rubio scores 30 or 2 points in his last game, the defense gives him no respect. His mid range shooting isn’t bad as a whole, but the defense is still begging him to shoot.

The real question is why is he here in the first place? Was it to try and keep Hayward? That is dumb rationale but somewhat explicable. Otherwise it was a stupid, stupid decision that will tax the franchise. Rubio can work, but not with this team, and not this system.

[walk with me]

Rubio PnR is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. He gains no advantage in the PnR, but he also provides no spacing off the ball. This is turning into the Exum situation where people are blaming the system for his lack of usage. Just like Exum, it's a lack of ability that's limiting his involvement. Rubio can do as much or as little as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that he is terrible at capitalizing on the opportunities that system creates. He's the absolute worst type of PG to be playing here.

There is no place for him in Utah unless there is a complete overhaul in the way we play. Even if we had the overhaul, the surrounding players around wouldn't fit in any system and he'd still struggle.

I dont know why you keep repeating this when it is obvious by the results that it isnt true. This aint no computer game, you dont need the Curry "pull up from the logo" to "gain an advantage" in the pnr. This is his 7th season and those who watched him know that no matter how the defense sets up for the pnr he will create an open shot for the roll man or the guy covered by the helper. Its inexplicable that Snyder makes the same mistakes Thibs did for half a season. Simply inexplicable.

I could say the same thing back. Why do you keep repeating yourself when the results obviously show that what you’re saying is not true? The results are bad, very bad, and it’s because Rubio is horrendous fit for both the system and roster composition. Neither the team or Rubio as an individual is doing well. When Rubio does play well, it is because he shoots well and not because of his passing. There are little to no opportunities to take advantage of his passing, and that’s something that will not change unless there is a complete overhaul of the system and roster in place.

You don’t have to shoot from the logo, but you have to put the pressure on the defense somehow. Whether Rubio scores 30 or 2 points in his last game, the defense gives him no respect. His mid range shooting isn’t bad as a whole, but the defense is still begging him to shoot.

The real question is why is he here in the first place? Was it to try and keep Hayward? That is dumb rationale but somewhat explicable. Otherwise it was a stupid, stupid decision that will tax the franchise. Rubio can work, but not with this team, and not this system.

Can you think of a system that he could start in and it would “work”

[mplsfonz23]

You cannot be serious.
Rubio has missed ALOT of WIDE OPEN layups off the P&R. Teams don't even try to defend RR. He had a flash game against Portland, but days like he had against the Wolves will be plenty. When he scores, most of it will come from the FT line. That he is good at.

First of all he has a pretty reliable midrange pullup from the left side off the dribble. Apart from taht he has the dribble penetration under the basket and frequently draws two defenders. If you watched him six years and didnt see literally houndreds of assists off that situation then i'm not sure WHAT you watched. You seem to hold a grudge for some reason; i'm aware of his shortcomings but to deny any value or skill the way some of you guys do is just ridiculous imho. Apparently most HC's and GM's dont seem to agree with you either. Of course a bunch of "those" guys come out of the woods now when he has a really hard time, you were nowhere to be seen when the season started though.

Are you serious? That's what you said to me when I criticized Rubio. So we know, if any poster says something negative about Rubio, they must hold a grudge!

Yeah, I don't care about Rubio anymore, and certainly don't hold a grudge. But fact is, I have seen him plenty over the years, and he doesn't get any better than what he is. Sorry Jazz fans, he has peaked.

[LesGrossman]

. Rubio can work, but not with this team, and not this system.

I agree with the latter part, not the first one, and i'd say you have no evidence to back that up. We have not seen an attempt to overhaul the offense; i hope we will, adn that doesnt depend on playing or benching Rubio. When he was benched to finish the game vs. the Heat (?), the very same problems persisted because they are inherent to the combination of system and personnel, Ricky just doesnt add or subtract from its dysfunctionality. In taht respect i am very much reminded of that last part of the previous season where from all star day on, Thibs finally came to his senses, ran a different offense that actually brought the wolves back into playoff contention for a while and resulted in a lot more wins (and career high numbers for Rubio...coincidence?).

[SkyhookinUrMom]

Utah has in their starting 5 one of the best playmakers and one of the best 3pt shooters in the league...

and they use the 3pt shooter as their main playmaker and the playmaker sits in the corner waiting for the 3