The Case for Favors

Luigi · Post #1 » by **Luigi** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:34 am

It's all about the defense. And it has been for a few years now. Remember when it began three years ago?: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2426342-derrick-favors-and-rudy-gobert-emerging-as-nbas-best-defensive-frontcourt

I think our defense, and beef on the boards, is a lot better with Favors around. I wanna stay big.

People are worried about the Gobert Favors frontcourt. But they're missing the other half of the court, the place where our true identity is. Putting Favors with Gobert there makes us truly elite on defense. It may be too much to ask Gobert to do that without another true big.

MalonesElbows · Post #2 » by **MalonesElbows** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:07 am

Being 1st on defense and 14th on offense isn't going to cut it though. With Favors, your're never cracking the upper half in offense (Jazz are 17th now). That's why Dennis Lindsey's bid to keep Favors will be very modest.

Rauxcee · Post #3 » by **Rauxcee** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:08 am

I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

Luigi · Post #4 » by **Luigi** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:23 am

Rauxcee wrote:I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

Should we go with Crowder minutes/touches instead of Favors though? Plus, I'm not sure Favors is under utilized by much right now. He's good for 30-32 minutes. Most bigs don't go over that.

Three man rotation?
Favors 16 / Crowder 26 / Jerebko 6
Gobert 32 / Favors 16

I think I'd rather see him dominate the paint with Rudy than have a spacing offense. I don't think we're outshooting any of the elite teams, but we might be an 04 Pistons.

MalonesElbows wrote:Being 1st on defense and 14th on offense isn't going to cut it though. With Favors, your're never cracking the upper half in offense (Jazz are 17th now). That's why Dennis Lindsey's bid to keep Favors will be very modest.

That's fair. I guess the offense goes as far as Mitchell carries it as he matures.

KqWIN · Post #5 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:30 am

Rauxcee wrote:I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

I can’t imagine he enjoys spending half his minutes playing backup center, and the other half standing in the corner doing nothing. All while looking forward to sitting on the bench in the 4th.

Rauxcee · Post #6 » by **Rauxcee** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:36 am

KqWIN wrote:
Rauxcee wrote:I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

I can’t imagine he enjoys spending half his minutes playing backup center, and the other half standing in the corner doing nothing. All while looking forward to sitting on the bench in the 4th.

Exactly. Despite that, Favors has been nothing but professional and is still putting the team first and helping them win despite his contract situation (the opposite of Hill IMO). He's an amazing dude and for that I wish him nothing but the best wherever he goes. He deserves great things.

Luigi · Post #7 » by **Luigi** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:37 am

KqWIN wrote:
Rauxcee wrote:I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

I can’t imagine he enjoys spending half his minutes playing backup center, and the other half standing in the corner doing nothing. All while looking forward to sitting on the bench in the 4th.

How many minutes is he getting in the 4th?

And does he mind playing center? I'd expect other teams to put him there more often than not.

KqWIN · Post #8 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:40 am

Luigi wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Rauxcee wrote:I don't think it's an issue of the Jazz wanting Favors. They do. It's an issue of Favors wanting the Jazz.

I'm not sure of minutes, but I think Crowder gets as much as, if not more than Favors. Favors rots on the bench in the 4th quarter. Favors sacrifices some of his offensive game to help the team with spacing. He deserves more offensive touches. He deserves more minutes. He deserves to play in the 4th. And that's why he'll leave.

I can’t imagine he enjoys spending half his minutes playing backup center, and the other half standing in the corner doing nothing. All while looking forward to sitting on the bench in the 4th.

How many minutes is he getting in the 4th?

And does he mind playing center? I'd expect other teams to put him there more often than not.

1. Barely any, and Quin has sat either Favors/Gobert in crunch time for years...it's not going to change.

2. Favors is a center and could be a starting center on many teams. He will never get to be the starting center for the Jazz.

Daddy 801 · Post #9 » by **Daddy 801** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:47 am

Favors is gone. It sucks. But it’s true. I think we’re posting as well or better defense numbers with Crowder though....? People want to bash him and his 3% but if he is playing the “PF” spot his numbers and defense aren’t bad. It’s hard to fully measure because he isn’t only a PF, but he is making a positive impact.

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Rauxcee · Post #10 » by **Rauxcee** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:57 am

I kinda like Crowder and I don't necessarily mind his shooting %, I mind that he shoots too much, a lot of times they don't look good, and he's a bit of a black hole.

I love the idea of Crowder coming off the bench. Petrified of him being our starting PF next year however.

Luigi · Post #11 » by **Luigi** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:59 am

Rauxcee wrote:I kinda like Crowder and I don't necessarily mind his shooting %, I mind that he shoots too much, a lot of times they don't look good, and he's a bit of a black hole.

I love the idea of Crowder coming off the bench. Petrified of him being our starting PF next year however.

A three man rotation would be perfect.

KqWIN · Post #12 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am

Daddy 801 wrote:Favors is gone. It sucks. But it’s true. I think we’re posting as well or better defense numbers with Crowder though....? People want to bash him and his 3% but if he is playing the “PF” spot his numbers and defense aren’t bad. It’s hard to fully measure because he isn’t only a PF, but he is making a positive impact.

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We are playing extremely well with Crowder at the 4. Coming into tonight, we had 89.2 defensive rating with Gobert+Crowder at the 4&5. Our starting lineup with Crowder in for Favors is +43.0 with an 80.0 defensive rating!!!!!!

I looked at the past 4 seasons, and we are a little bit better defensively with Favors+Gobert than with just Gobert...but you also have to consider that the players who have been playing instead are mostly bad defenders (Booker, Lyles, Johnson, Diaw).

Daddy 801 · Post #13 » by **Daddy 801** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:14 am

Rauxcee wrote:I kinda like Crowder and I don't necessarily mind his shooting %, I mind that he shoots too much, a lot of times they don't look good, and he's a bit of a black hole.

I love the idea of Crowder coming off the bench. Petrified of him being our starting PF next year however.

I don’t disagree. I want Favs back bad. The one saving grace is that Favs apparently doesn’t want to be a C. If that’s true, and he is happy with Quin and the Jazz, maybe he takes a small discount. But reports are he is going where the money is. Sucks, but I won’t be mad. He is a professional.

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KqWIN · Post #14 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:19 am

I mean...can you believe this? Crowder isn't even playing well!!!

BudTugly · Post #15 » by **BudTugly** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:27 am

Daddy 801 wrote:
Rauxcee wrote:I kinda like Crowder and I don't necessarily mind his shooting %, I mind that he shoots too much, a lot of times they don't look good, and he's a bit of a black hole.

I love the idea of Crowder coming off the bench. Petrified of him being our starting PF next year however.

I don’t disagree. I want Favs back bad. The one saving grace is that Favs apparently doesn’t want to be a C. If that’s true, and he is happy with Quin and the Jazz, maybe he takes a small discount. But reports are he is going where the money is. Sucks, but I won’t be mad. He is a professional.

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His journey with this team is really rocky. When he signed his current contract the quote was hope I retire here. Then Gobert happened and injuries happened and our FO was trying to move him. Then the Clippers series opened eyes again. Even after that, though, he was a cap,casualty because of the chase for G. This front office was ready to pay George the Toe and G 50+ mil per. Thankfully Toe ran and the G turned his coat.

So the Jazz turned a guy who vocally wanted to retire here into a mercenary. You can’t blame him at all, I think he’s worth around 15 per but we will see. There is no way in hell Crowder is better than him and I feel that is the plan it’s a downgrade.

Rauxcee · Post #16 » by **Rauxcee** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 am

KqWIN wrote:I mean...can you believe this? Crowder isn't even playing well!!!

That's... pretty shocking actually. Had no idea it was that.

I'm just going to give all the credit to Gobert as way of explanation. :lol:

I will say that I do think Crowder gets better every game and can be an important cog in the wheel. Still not sure I like him as our starting PF though. We'll see how it goes I guess.

Luigi · Post #17 » by **Luigi** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:47 am

Looks like Favors is playing 5.9 minutes during the fourth. Probably propped up a little from the time Gobert was out.

stitches · Post #18 » by **stitches** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:50 am

KqWIN wrote:I mean...can you believe this? Crowder isn't even playing well!!!

small sample.

KqWIN · Post #19 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:27 am

stitches wrote:small sample.

OK, forget you saw any number at all. This is Quin's main lineup now and going forward, and it is demolishing teams. Things are going well with Crowder, even if Crowder is not playing particularly well.

BudTugly · Post #20 » by **BudTugly** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:05 am

KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:small sample.

OK, forget you saw any number at all. This is Quin's main lineup now and going forward, and it is demolishing teams. Things are going well with Crowder, even if Crowder is not playing particularly well.

Something is there. I was complaining about this a while back, there had to be some reason they were so obviously invested in Crowder even though his contribution was negligible on the surface.

Something is happening. What is it?