The Case for Favors

[Inigo Montoya]

Here's the wild one...what about Favs for Lonzo?

Maybe if Sloan was still the coach.

[Luigi]

I for one am I am sad that the Case for Favors thread has turned into a conversation about trading him for Lonzo ball

Shooting, apparently, is paramount for a big man. But a point guard who can't shoot?!?! Bring him in!

[KqWIN]

It's not all about the 8 minutes that they play together. Quin correctly makes that 0 minutes in the playoffs. It's also the minutes they can't play together, particularly in crunch time. That's what decreases our ceiling. If Favors and Gobert are both playing great, we can only play one.

We need to improve our peak lineup, and our peak lineup cannot feature Gobert and Favors. That is the issue. I put much higher priority on improving our best 5 than improving the backup minutes for our best player.

Dropping Favors means dropping 16 minutes of backup time to Rudy, and adding 8 minutes of a strechy 4. We could upgrade our best lineup by dropping Crowder for a better stretchy 4 for 28 minutes a night, but for some reason that doesn't come up as a plan very often. That's why I think it's an obsession.

I also think our best lineup looks better with Favors and Gobert on the floor, and 3 guards/wings that can actually shoot. So I think there are better ways to a best lineup than the drop Favors plan. Again, looking like a Favors can't stretch obsession. We need guards and wings who can stretch first hahaha.

When we best OKC last year, Favors played 197 minutes. Gobert played 213. ...I think the Houston small ball strategy is warping perspective on what Favors offers. Even in the most recent series, Favors is the guy who got us our win. Keep him.

I think we're arguing two different things it here. It's the ceiling I'm talking about. I don't think it's bad that Favors is here, but at the same time he does not do much to our ceiling as he cannot play with our best player. If he Kuzma is playing well, he can be on the court with Gobert. If Favors is playing well, he cannot. Either he or Gobert is sitting. Kuzma, or someone like him, can theoretically increase our peak level of play and be on the court with our best player during crunch time.

It's awesome that Favors can replace Gobert in the final minutes from time to time...but that's a floor raiser, not a ceiling raiser. I'm a proponent of increasing our ceiling even if it lowers our floor. We've had enough first and second round exits. If it costs Favors to increase the ceiling of this team, we have to do it.

[Luigi]

he does not do much to our ceiling as he cannot play with our best player.

I don't think that's true. Like I said, if we upgrade shooters at the 123 or off the bench big minutes 4 spots, I think we're better with Favors and Gobert on the floor together. So if the choice is between upgrading the 4 spot, or upgrading a wing or guard spot, I think we stand more to gain by upgrading a wing or guard.

If he Kuzma is playing well, he can be on the court with Gobert. If Favors is playing well, he cannot. Either he or Gobert is sitting. Kuzma, or someone like him, can theoretically increase our peak level of play and be on the court with our best player during crunch time.

I think this is true enough. But there are easier ways to this outcome that don't involve losing Favors. Upgrade Crowder or Rubio and we'll get a better and longer bump (in terms of shooting and minutes) than we do if we move Favors.

It's awesome that Favors can replace Gobert in the final minutes from time to time...but that's a floor raiser, not a ceiling raiser. I'm a proponent of increasing our ceiling even if it lowers our floor. We've had enough first and second round exits. If it costs Favors to increase the ceiling of this team, we have to do it.

I just can't buy it when it's 8 minutes of ceiling raising for 16 minutes of floor raising (if I accept that ceilings and floors are equivalent to best lineups and backups). And where there are other, more obvious shooting upgrades we should be making first to get the best lineup for a much longer time.

[KqWIN]

I don't think that's true. Like I said, if we upgrade shooters at the 123 or off the bench big minutes 4 spots, I think we're better with Favors and Gobert on the floor together. So if the choice is between upgrading the 4 spot, or upgrading a wing or guard spot, I think we stand more to gain by upgrading a wing or guard spot.

It's just not optimal to have Favors and Gobert play together, especially with the way Quin likes to play basketball. If we did certain things to take advantage of having two bigs it might be different, but we do not. We are a spread pick and roll team through and through. The issue of Favors-Gobert might be mitigated with more shooting, but at the end of the day Favors is going to be standing in a corner while we play 4v5 on offense.

We shouldn't be building a team to try and make Favors-Gobert less bad. We should be building a team that maximizes Mitchell and Gobert. Having a 4 with no shooting or ball handling ability does not help Gobert. Favors as PF actively makes Gobert and Mitchell worse no matter who the other players on the court are. You just can't convince me that he's the best fit next to Mitchell and Gobert..and I'm talking in general, not just the best of the bad options on our team. Although I also would say that Favs is also the worst PF on our team. Quin agrees too, as evident with his 0 PF minutes to finish the series.

I think this is true enough. But there are easier ways to this outcome that don't involve losing Favors. Upgrade Crowder or Rubio and we'll get a better and longer bump (in terms of shooting and minutes) than we do if we move Favors.

Again, I'm not saying Favors is the issue. My point is that Favors does not address the major issues with this team and should not get in the way of improving in those areas. Favors addresses the backup C position, which is great, but there is a limited amount of impact you can have as the backup of the best player of the team when you can't play with him. It is a great luxury to have the best backup C in the league. But it's more important to improve your peak lineup.

I just can't buy it when it's 8 minutes of ceiling raising for 16 minutes of floor raising (if I accept that ceilings and floors are equivalent to best lineups and backups). And where there are other, more obvious shooting upgrades we should be making first to get the best lineup for a much longer time.

I don't quite get what you're saying here....but ceilings and floors are simple. Having Favors improves the floor because he really helps us out when Gobert is injured or not having his best game. In situations where Gobert is not right, we don't see as big of a drop off as other teams because Favors is so good.

But he doesn't do much to increase our ceiling, because our ceiling includes Gobert being healthy and playing well. If that's the case, Favors is limited to playing 12 really good backup C minutes. Compare that 36+ minutes of any other position. It doesn't have to come from the PF position as long as they can play with Gobert.

As a simple example, are we better off with Gobert and Favors both having a good game, or Rubio and Gobert having a good game? To me that's quite easy. It's the latter because both would be playing big minutes.

[Luigi]

I can agree with all of that, and still think that moving Favors is way further down the priority list than moving Rubio, Crowder, or getting decent backup guards and wings for the offense. We play 4 v 5 offense when Rubio can't shoot in Snyder's system, and we play worse than 4 v 5 offense when possessions are ending with an obligatory Crowder 3. Not to menton Snyder's defense, the strength of the team, depends on reliable anchors.

Fixating on moving Favors instead on upgrading on one of the many more pressing needs seems like a mistake to me. Especially when Favors performs right now.

Conley, Mitchell, Ingles, Favors, Gobert
Rubio, Mitchell, Ingles, Harris, Gobert

I take team Favors all day. Both teams have 3 threats from 3, making the same kind of issues for the offense. But Favors simply does more.

[KqWIN]

I can agree with all of that, and still think that moving Favors is way further down the priority list than moving Rubio, Crowder, or getting decent backup guards and wings for the offense. We play 4 v 5 offense when Rubio can't shoot in Snyder's system, and we play worse than 4 v 5 offense when possessions are ending with an obligatory Crowder 3. Not to menton Snyder's defense, the strength of the team, depends on reliable anchors.

Fixating on moving Favors instead on upgrading on one of the many more pressing needs seems like a mistake to me. Especially when Favors performs right now.

Conley, Mitchell, Ingles, Favors, Gobert

Rubio, Mitchell, Ingles, Harris, Gobert

I take team Favors all day. Both teams have 3 threats from 3, making the same kind of issues for the offense. But Favors simply does more.

Again, I'm not fixated on moving Favors. I'm fixated on improving the ceiling of this team. Favors can't be apart of the best 5 because he can't play with Gobert. It wouldn't matter if we had Curry and Thompson next to Favors and Gobert. Favors is still the worst possible type of player to put next to Gobert as someone with no shooting ability and no perimeter skills. We shouldn't focus on making the best possible 4v5 team. We need to play 5v5, and that won't happen with Favors packed in a corner as the worst shooter in the NBA. If we got Conley, I can guarantee you one of Favors/Gobert would still be sitting on the bench.

I'll bring it up a few more times so it's not brought up again. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team.

[Luigi]

Favors can't be apart of the best 5 because he can't play with Gobert.

Again, I disagree...

I'll bring it up a few more times so it's not brought up again. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team.

Again, there are better ways of raising the ceiling. You are fixated on one way to raise the ceiling, and it's not a very good one compared to the others. Once we have a point guard who can shoot, and some other wings that can too, then we can talk about how awful it is to play Favors in Snyder's offense.

[tleikheen]

I don't think Favors/Exum/1st rd pick for Conley will be a good trade for the Jazz. After watching Dame and CJ get swept by GS you'd have another small backcourt of Conley and DM who won't be as good as Portlands backcourt trying to win in the playoffs.

While Exum and Favors would join Jaren Jackson and 1st round pick PG Morant or SG Barrett in the starting lineup, they'd be pretty good and young and athletic

[KqWIN]

Favors can't be apart of the best 5 because he can't play with Gobert.

Again, I disagree...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I can't be convinced that Favors standing in a corner is the most optimal way to play basketball. Even if Favors-Gobert is the right duo, we'll never see it as Quin has shown his opinion on the matter.

I'll bring it up a few more times so it's not brought up again. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team.

Again, there are better ways of raising the ceiling. You are fixated on one way to raise the ceiling, and it's not a very good one compared to the others.

I am not fixated on moving Favors. Never implied that I was either. In fact, I explicitly said this before. If you noticed I stated this in the first sentence of the last post. When I say things, especially not in a gamethread, I usually mean them. Just saying! But to make sure again, I am not fixated on moving Favors, and I mean that.

It just so happens that moving Favors might be required to increase the ceiling of the team. Upgrading on Rubio or Crowder is not mutually exclusive with moving Favors. A lot of the rumored solutions to upgrade on Rubio Crowder, such as Conley and Harris, will likely require us to move Favors. If we have a real opportunity to improve the ceiling of this team, but it costs Favors, we should do it anyways because the ceiling of this team is what matters to me the most. That is what I am fixated on, increasing the ceiling of this team. I am not fixed on moving Favors, even though it might require moving Favors to do so.

[Luigi]

Favors can't be apart of the best 5 because he can't play with Gobert.

Again, I disagree...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I can't be convinced that Favors standing in a corner is the most optimal way to play basketball. Even if Favors-Gobert is the right duo, we'll never see it as Quin has shown his opinion on the matter.

I'll bring it up a few more times so it's not brought up again. It's not a priority to move Favors, but it is a priority to improve the ceiling of this team.

Again, there are better ways of raising the ceiling. You are fixated on one way to raise the ceiling, and it's not a very good one compared to the others.

I am not fixated on moving Favors. Never implied that I was either. In fact, I explicitly said this before. If you noticed I stated this in the first sentence of the last post. When I say things, especially not in a gamethread, I usually mean them. Just saying! But to make sure again, I am not fixated on moving Favors, and I mean that.

It just so happens that moving Favors might be required to increase the ceiling of the team. Upgrading on Rubio or Crowder is not mutually exclusive with moving Favors. A lot of the rumored solutions to upgrade on Rubio Crowder, such as Conley and Harris, will likely require us to move Favors. If we have a real opportunity to improve the ceiling of this team, but it costs Favors, we should do it anyways because the ceiling of this team is what matters to me the most. That is what I am fixated on. I am not fixed on moving Favors, even though it might require moving Favors to do so.

Fixation is putting extra attention on one place when it is deserved in other places. Your case to improve the ceiling by moving Favors comes from Synder's offense requiring 4 out. But our point guard and backup wings don't count as "out" players as it is, so I think your case applies more to moving other pieces first. This is where I'm curious to hear what you think: would you upgrade shooting at the 1 position before your did it at the 4 position?

I might agree with you that the ultimate version of the Jazz would be to move Favors. But that is 10 steps down the road, and we'll never make it there. In the meantime, moving Favors for Kuzma to try to approximate that 10th step seems very strange to me.

[KqWIN]

Fixation is putting extra attention on one place when it is deserved in other places. Your case to improve the ceiling by moving Favors comes from Synder's offense requiring 4 out. But our point guard and backup wings don't count as "out" players as it is, so I think your case applies more to moving other pieces first. This is where I'm curious to hear what you think: would you upgrade shooting at the 1 position before your did it at the 4 position?

I might agree with you that the ultimate version of the Jazz would be to move Favors. But that is 10 steps down the road, and we'll never make it there. In the meantime, moving Favors for Kuzma to try to approximate that 10th step seems very strange to me.

It's hard to not put extra attention on Favors in a Favors thread while commenting on a Favors-Kuzma trade proposal I don't know if you've read my other posts in other threads, but I promise you that I've talked about a myriad of other options and scenarios. The one guy I seem to like more than anyone else is not related to replacing Favors at all. I've been working under the assumptions that Favs will be back as it seems most likely.

I've been very vocal about what I think this team needs. We need shot creation and scoring first and foremost. That lack of offensive firepower is the biggest barrier for this team. I do not care what "position" that comes from, as long as they can play with Gobert and Mitchell. I prefer Kuzma in this specific proposal because he offers more of what we need, is still developing, and is a more natural fit next to Gobert. He's not nearly as good as Favors in a vacuum, and that might result in a lower floor...but there's a higher level we can reach with Kuz.

[Daddy 801]

I think the main reason I would keep Favors is if he is willing to accept a back up C and PF position going forward. If he is happy he got paid and says he wants to stay and is willing to sign a 4 year 40-45 million dollar deal on his next contract then I would seriously consider keeping him.

[Luigi]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

So it looks like the Jazz are willing to move Favors if it means Tobias Harris, Kemba Walker, D'Angelo Russell, or Mike Conley.

I really regret the Jazz not going through with a move for Conley last year while Rubio and Exum were potential trade pieces.

[KqWIN]

I don’t think those tweets tell us anything new. The things that would make us move Favors are highly unlikely to happen. I guess the Conley trade is realistic, but we’d be giving up two firsts. Don’t want to do that.

This is why I’ve been operating under the assumption that Favors will be back. The other scenarios just don’t seem realistic.

[Luigi]

I think it draws a line that was in dispute recently.

"an absolutely sure thing in their minds that it improves the roster"
"Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris or Mike Conley or D’Angelo Russell"

I don't think Kuzma counts as being sure to improve the team. The list of guys that do that is pretty short.

[Luigi]

If they run with Favors, I think he'll look better on the floor with Conley instead of Rubio.

And let's not act like anybody was guarding Crowder at the 3 point line, he wasn't stretching anything but his reputation as a shooter . Defenses just got less compact, and we keep Favors.

[Rainwater]

If they run with Favors, I think he'll look better on the floor with Conley instead of Rubio.

And let's not act like anybody was guarding Crowder at the 3 point line, he wasn't stretching anything but his reputation as a shooter . Defenses just got less compact, and we keep Favors.

I doubt that Favors comes back unless its at a way cheaper rate for a bench role. Its a stretch four league; I see you guys pressuring Mirotic or Jabari and getting another 3-D wing to offset their defensive limitations in the off season. You would be better off going that route. You guys have nice big three btw, just build around it with shooters.

[Luigi]

If they run with Favors, I think he'll look better on the floor with Conley instead of Rubio.

And let's not act like anybody was guarding Crowder at the 3 point line, he wasn't stretching anything but his reputation as a shooter . Defenses just got less compact, and we keep Favors.

I doubt that Favors comes back unless its at a way cheaper rate for a bench role. Its a stretch four league; I see you guys pressuring Mirotic or Jabari and getting another 3-D wing to offset their defensive limitations in the off season. You would be better off going that route. You guys have nice big three btw, just build around it with shooters.

We'll see. Earlier, Tony Jones drew the line for moving on from Favors:

"an absolutely sure thing in their minds that it improves the roster"
"Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris or Mike Conley or D’Angelo Russell"

I don't know if that's still the case. But I don't think Mirotic in an absolutely sure thing to improve the roster.

[Winglish]

I can agree with all of that, and still think that moving Favors is way further down the priority list than moving Rubio, Crowder, or getting decent backup guards and wings for the offense. We play 4 v 5 offense when Rubio can't shoot in Snyder's system, and we play worse than 4 v 5 offense when possessions are ending with an obligatory Crowder 3. Not to menton Snyder's defense, the strength of the team, depends on reliable anchors.

Fixating on moving Favors instead on upgrading on one of the many more pressing needs seems like a mistake to me. Especially when Favors performs right now.

Conley, Mitchell, Ingles, Favors, Gobert
Rubio, Mitchell, Ingles, Harris, Gobert

I take team Favors all day. Both teams have 3 threats from 3, making the same kind of issues for the offense. But Favors simply does more.

Looking good, Nostradamus.