Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1621 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat Jul 6, 2019 10:41 am

Rauxcee wrote:Well poop. Glad he didn't sign with the Lakers, but getting George makes them really, really good. They should be the heavy, heavy favorites. Lakers should be able to add some nice depth too making those 2 LA teams the head of the pack by a decent margin.

Man, being a Jazz fans sucks sometimes. Just when you thought you had an opening it gets slammed shut. Right on the fingers. Back to being a second round team.....

Unless Mitchell takes a huge leap and is a top 10 player next season, which is incredibly unlikely for only a third year player.

Damn. At least Kawhi didn't sign with the Lakers. I take solace in that.


It would have been better for the Jazz had he gone to the Lakers. They were already good. Now the Clippers are very good too, so it's two good teams to deal with instead of one. Leonard just made the Clippers great again...
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1622 » by stitches » Sat Jul 6, 2019 1:24 pm

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Damn... Masai rejected an offer of PG13+Westbrook centered around Paskal Siakam getting back to OKC.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1623 » by ForeverRDjazz » Sat Jul 6, 2019 3:20 pm

stitches wrote:
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Damn... Masai rejected an offer of PG13+Westbrook centered around Paskal Siakam getting back to OKC.

:crazy: So Raps could've had PG and Westbrook with trade for Siakam plus? What was he smoking? This rates up there with NY off season for stupid moves.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1624 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat Jul 6, 2019 4:26 pm

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Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1625 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sat Jul 6, 2019 4:35 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1626 » by sipclip » Sat Jul 6, 2019 5:41 pm

ForeverRDjazz wrote:
stitches wrote:
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Damn... Masai rejected an offer of PG13+Westbrook centered around Paskal Siakam getting back to OKC.

:crazy: So Raps could've had PG and Westbrook with trade for Siakam plus? What was he smoking? This rates up there with NY off season for stupid moves.


Not really. Westbrook is poison at this point and would have been a disaster with Kawhi in my opinion. I would want Kawhi dominating the ball in the 4th quarter and I don't think that would work well with Westbrook at all.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1627 » by stitches » Sat Jul 6, 2019 5:44 pm

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1628 » by sipclip » Sat Jul 6, 2019 5:44 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
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That is pretty crazy. I bet they are able to move Gallo for another 1st when it is all said and done. Kawhi and George may be the best sg/sf duo since Jordan and Pippen but they also come with serious injury concerns. In the end this trade ends up probably being a major win win for both teams.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1629 » by Luigi » Sat Jul 6, 2019 6:06 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
Luigi wrote:It makes me hate him again. I forgave him when he played in Canada for forcing his way out of SA. But now he just broke another well run small market by poaching the guy that just signed there.


OKC broke themselves by failing to get out of the first round of the playoffs twice in a row with their roster. I'm sure PG13 didn't sign there so he could go fishing so early every season.


Nah, they were in it like everyone else. The West was super competitive. They hit a matchup problem, kinda like we have hitting Houston. If that's the standard to keep your star, well, we can expect to be trading ours very soon.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1630 » by Luigi » Sat Jul 6, 2019 6:41 pm

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So Anthony Davis is a power forward after all :lol:

McGee (20) / Cousins (20) / Davis (8)
Davis (28) / James (20)
James (16) / Kuzma (32) / Dudley
Green (26) / Caldwell-Pope (22)
Rondo??? (32) / Cook (16)

4s getting bigger and bigger my friends.
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1631 » by Luigi » Sat Jul 6, 2019 7:12 pm

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Yup, we can remove the question marks.

McGee (20) / Cousins (20) / Davis (8)
Davis (28) / James (20)
James (16) / Kuzma (32) / Dudley
Green (26) / Caldwell-Pope (22)
Rondo (32) / Cook (16)


So, who's ready to see a 215 lb Bogdanovic guard Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Al Horford, and Kristaps Porzingis? :lol:
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1632 » by KqWIN » Sat Jul 6, 2019 9:16 pm

If you're really terrified about size and don't believe in spacing on offense, you can always play Ed Davis at PF. He's played alongside another big for most of his career. But we've seen how that works offensively with Favors.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1633 » by Luigi » Sat Jul 6, 2019 9:53 pm

KqWIN wrote:If you're really terrified about size and don't believe in spacing on offense, you can always play Ed Davis at PF. He's played alongside another big for most of his career. But we've seen how that works offensively with Favors.


He's not worthy of more than 18 minutes a night, that has been his number for many years now. He has to fill backup center minutes no matter what. So I don't think we can run him in overdrive for more than a few minutes at 4 after that. And it's not a one-off concern. Most of the 4s logging heavy minutes for playoff teams are very large. It's going to be a nightly concern.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1634 » by sipclip » Sat Jul 6, 2019 10:01 pm

The west just keeps getting tougher with Marcus Morris to the spurs. Murray and White may be the best defensive backcourt in the league while still being solid offense. At the forward spot I think Derozan and Morris compliment each other pretty. They also have a solid bench in Mills, Walker, Carroll, Gay and Poetl.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1635 » by KqWIN » Sat Jul 6, 2019 10:46 pm

Luigi wrote:
KqWIN wrote:If you're really terrified about size and don't believe in spacing on offense, you can always play Ed Davis at PF. He's played alongside another big for most of his career. But we've seen how that works offensively with Favors.


He's not worthy of more than 18 minutes a night, that has been his number for many years now. He has to fill backup center minutes no matter what. So I don't think we can run him in overdrive for more than a few minutes at 4 after that. And it's not a one-off concern. Most of the 4s logging heavy minutes for playoff teams are very large. It's going to be a nightly concern.


Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the size thing. The teams that actually use size to their advantage to score are few and far in between. We tried it ourselves for years and it was a failure offensively.

I don’t expect the league to go in the complete opposite direction it’s been going for years. Davis won’t play 4 because it’s bad, not because he can’t play enough minutes. If the latter comes true, backup C is still the easiest spot to fill on a minimum.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1636 » by Luigi » Sat Jul 6, 2019 11:40 pm

We haven't been paying attention. Teams that are serious about making the playoffs are HUUUUGE at the power forward and center positions this year. They're going to play 2 bigs at the same time. The list just keeps getting bigger and grittier as free agency finishes up.

Legit Twin Towers with shooting:
Sixers - Horford (6'10, 245), Embiid (7'0, 250), Harris (6'9, 235), Ben Simmons (6'10, 230)
Bucks - Giannis (6'11, 242), Lopez (7'0, 270), Ilysasova (6'10, 235)
Nuggets - Millsap (6'8, 246), Jokic (7'0, 250), Plumlee (6'11, 235)
Kings - Bagley (6'11, 234), Dedmon (7'0, 245), Bjelica (6'10, 234)
Mavs - Porzingas (7'3, 240), Powell (6'11, 240), Boban (7'3 290)

Twin towers because of roster changes:
Lakers - Davis (6'10, 253), Cousins (6'11, 270), McGee (7'0, 270), James (6'8, 250), Skinny Kuzma (6'9, 220)
Blazers - Collins (7'0, 235), Nurkic (7'0, 275), Whiteside (7'0, 265)
Pelicans - Zion (6'7, 284), Favors (6'10, 265)
Pacers - Sabonis (6'11, 240), Turner (6'11, 250) [lost Thad]

Chunky, strong, small-ball forwards (who still have legit centers next to them):
Clippers - Some mix of Harrell (6'8, 240), J. Green (6'9, 227), Zubac (7'1, 240), Harkless (6'9, 220), Kabengele (6'10, 250)
Rockets - Tucker (6'6, 245), Capela (6'10, 240), is Nene (6'11, 250) really retiring?
Warriors - Green (6'7, 240), Looney (6'9, 220), Cauley-Stein (7'0, 240)
Spurs - Morris 6'9, 235, Aldridge (6'11, 260), Poeltl (7'0, 230), Gay (6'9, 230)

And then we have my stick figure Utah Jazz:
Jeff Green (6'9, 235),Ingles (6'8, 226), Gobert (7'1, 245), Bogdanovic (6'8, 215)


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My fellow Jazz fans, how you are unworried about playing marshmallows at the 4? The only way I can explain this attitude:

1- We think all 4s are small like PJ Tucker and Draymond Green. We have no idea how much those two actually weigh, or how physical they actually play. And we have no idea what 4s look like on other teams. We are stuck in the past, where hampton 5s and tiny rockets ruled the earth.
2 - We secretly believe that Bojan Bogdanovic is big and rugged. We don't know that we was scouted as a shooting guard and is 10 pounds lighter than Joe Ingles with a shorter wingspan.
3 - We think that post basketball is ineffective no matter who you have guarding the post.
4 - We think that size only matters when guarding a post player. This is probably because the biggest guy we fans ever guard is the short, overweight dude at the rec center who chucks 3s and doesn't get back on defense.
5 - We think Rudy Gobert can defend an entire roster all by himself. Well, he can. But it won't be as good as it has in the past.
6 - But most importantly, we have been spoiled by being the biggest, toughest team on the court for most of our lifetimes at Jazz fans. Karl Malone (6'9, 250) and Mark Eaton (7'4, 275) were gigantic brutes. So were Karl Malone and Greg Ostertag (7'2, 280). Carlos Boozer (6'9, 258) and Mehmet Okur (6'11, 249) weren't small, and they had Kirilenko (6'9, 220) playing down to 3 next to them. Alberto Grande (6'10, 289) and Paul Millsap (6'8, 246) had size and strength advantages on almost every team. Derrick Favors (6'10, 265) and Rudy Gobert (7'1, 245) were the rim reapers that anchored perhaps the best defense in the league for years, running their opponents out of the paint in search of cover. We honestly can't imagine not bullying the everloving crap out of every team in the league. So of course, Bojan will do it, too, right?
7 - There's an outside chance that going small on all these teams will actually work. But I don't believe.

POWER forwards are back in style in 2020 boys. 2 big bodies on the floor at the same time is standard for winning basketball teams. Get ready.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1637 » by KqWIN » Sun Jul 7, 2019 12:00 am

You’re probably doing it in jest...but constant straw manning does not come off as a good argument and it doesn’t contribute to better conversation.

People can have a different opinion while also not supporting these completely stretched and ridiculous takes that you fabricate out of thin air. You don’t have to replace any rationale argument with these phoney lines.

If you’re really struggling to find how people can have this attitude, consider the reasons that they state and not the reasons you make up for them. There are plenty of people besides myself who don’t think it’s a huge issue. Plenty of reasons and rationale has been shared and yet you list off a bunch of things that no one has said.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1638 » by Luigi » Sun Jul 7, 2019 12:13 am

I think the case starts with the objective measurements (which are understated for most of the weights on those bigs). Decent conversation about it really has to recognize those disparities, so I keep repeating them, because they get skirted or ignored. I really do believe that most fans are misinformed about the size of 5s and 4s around the league this year. And have a misunderstanding of Bojan's real size.

But the rest was just a quick catalogue of reasons I have heard, and suspicions I have. Are 3, 4, and 5 really strawmen? They're at least oatmen, aren't they?
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1639 » by KqWIN » Sun Jul 7, 2019 12:21 am

Luigi wrote:I think the case starts with the objective measurements (which are understated for most of the weights on those bigs). Decent conversation about it really has to recognize those disparities, so I keep repeating them, because they get skirted or ignored. I really do believe that most fans are misinformed about the size of 5s and 4s around the league this year. And have a misunderstanding of Bojan's real size.

But the rest was just a quick catalogue of reasons I have heard, and suspicions I have. Are 3, 4, and 5 really strawmen? They're at least oatmen, aren't they?


Did people make those arguments? Or are is it an exaggerated version of what someone might have said or implied. The majority of the things you listed, I haven't seen anyone say that or imply them. I do see lot's of exaggerated points and there's also a lot of good reasoning that is completely left out. I guess you must have missed all the primary arguments.

If you're actually trying have a discussion and learn why people have the opinion they do, use the reasons they list. Don't make up your own reasons. I have no idea why you would list off a bunch of fake reasons as the only way you think people could come to their opinion. The actual reasons are all over this forum, not hard to find. If all you do is list fake reasons, it's hard for anyone to respond because nobody actually has that opinion or uses those things as part of their rationale.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1640 » by Luigi » Sun Jul 7, 2019 12:23 am

KqWIN wrote:
Luigi wrote:I think the case starts with the objective measurements (which are understated for most of the weights on those bigs). Decent conversation about it really has to recognize those disparities, so I keep repeating them, because they get skirted or ignored. I really do believe that most fans are misinformed about the size of 5s and 4s around the league this year. And have a misunderstanding of Bojan's real size.

But the rest was just a quick catalogue of reasons I have heard, and suspicions I have. Are 3, 4, and 5 really strawmen? They're at least oatmen, aren't they?


Did people make those arguments? Or are is it an exaggerated version of what someone might have said or implied. The majority of the things you listed, I haven't seen anyone say that or imply them. I do see lot's of exaggerated points and there's also a lot of good reasoning that is completely left out. I guess you must have missed all the primary arguments.

If you're actually trying have a discussion and learn why people have the opinion they do, use the reasons they list. Don't make up your own reasons. I have no idea why you would list off a bunch of fake reasons as the only way you think people could come to their opinion. The actual reasons are all over this forum, not hard to find. If all you do is list fake reasons, it's hard for anyone to respond because nobody actually has that opinion or uses those things as part of their rationale.


I find this condescending. I went to a lot of trouble to add things to the thread. All you have done is criticize my post. Go ahead and make the argument stronger if you like. Address the objective disparities I have listed.
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