Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019

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KqWIN
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1641 » by KqWIN » Sun Jul 7, 2019 12:57 am

Luigi wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Luigi wrote:I think the case starts with the objective measurements (which are understated for most of the weights on those bigs). Decent conversation about it really has to recognize those disparities, so I keep repeating them, because they get skirted or ignored. I really do believe that most fans are misinformed about the size of 5s and 4s around the league this year. And have a misunderstanding of Bojan's real size.

But the rest was just a quick catalogue of reasons I have heard, and suspicions I have. Are 3, 4, and 5 really strawmen? They're at least oatmen, aren't they?


Did people make those arguments? Or are is it an exaggerated version of what someone might have said or implied. The majority of the things you listed, I haven't seen anyone say that or imply them. I do see lot's of exaggerated points and there's also a lot of good reasoning that is completely left out. I guess you must have missed all the primary arguments.

If you're actually trying have a discussion and learn why people have the opinion they do, use the reasons they list. Don't make up your own reasons. I have no idea why you would list off a bunch of fake reasons as the only way you think people could come to their opinion. The actual reasons are all over this forum, not hard to find. If all you do is list fake reasons, it's hard for anyone to respond because nobody actually has that opinion or uses those things as part of their rationale.


I find this condescending. I went to a lot of trouble to add things to the thread. All you have done is criticize my post. Go ahead an make the argument stronger if you like. Address the objective disparities I have listed.


If you find it condescending address peoples arguments, and don't make up their arguments for them. I'm going to call you out for it if you keep listing off fake reasons and ignore the actual points that people bring up. It's frustrating to have a conversation with someone who does this constantly.

Nobody is arguing the objective disparities in size. (PS, this aren't even 100% objective unless you actually believe that a player's listed height and weight especially are totally accurate.) What is being argued is the extent to which the size disparity matters. If you actually paid attention to the rationale and reasons presented, you would see why some don't think size is as big of a problem as you present.

The primary argument is the style of play in the league. It doesn't involve a lot of power game especially from the four. Instead, it's a spread pick and roll league with a heavy focus on the perimeter and spacing. Teams do not pound the rock inside like they used to. It's just too easy to defend that style of basketball, especially with Gobert. We're also not much smaller than last year. Favors was used at PF minimally. Jae was the primary PF and he doesn't have a gigantic size or strength advantage over the current guys. If you think it's going to be a massive problem now, it should have already been a problem with Jae and it wasn't at all. Jae's also incredibly overrated in terms of defense, hustle, and toughness.

The nature in which basketball is played, both offensively and defensively, as well as the way it's being officiated makes it difficult to take advantage of size on offense. You keep listing the PF's, but I'm not sure it's having the effect you think it is. When I see that list, I see a bunch of non issues because those teams won't attack with their size advantage or decide to use it all.

Then you have our own internal experience with this. The Jazz have had the size advantage with two bigs for years, and we haven't seen a benefit. It's also something our coaching staff clearly does not believe in. We've tried it, and it failed. We also have evidence of Bojan in more physical matchups. LeBron is arguably the most physically imposing player of all time, and Bojan does a decent job. Bojan was also took the hardest matchup for an elite defense last season. These aren't theories on how things played out, they actually happened and they shouldn't be discounted.

None of these arguments are new. Just repeating the same stuff.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1642 » by sipclip » Sun Jul 7, 2019 1:19 am

KqWIN wrote:
Luigi wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Did people make those arguments? Or are is it an exaggerated version of what someone might have said or implied. The majority of the things you listed, I haven't seen anyone say that or imply them. I do see lot's of exaggerated points and there's also a lot of good reasoning that is completely left out. I guess you must have missed all the primary arguments.

If you're actually trying have a discussion and learn why people have the opinion they do, use the reasons they list. Don't make up your own reasons. I have no idea why you would list off a bunch of fake reasons as the only way you think people could come to their opinion. The actual reasons are all over this forum, not hard to find. If all you do is list fake reasons, it's hard for anyone to respond because nobody actually has that opinion or uses those things as part of their rationale.


I find this condescending. I went to a lot of trouble to add things to the thread. All you have done is criticize my post. Go ahead an make the argument stronger if you like. Address the objective disparities I have listed.


If you find it condescending address peoples arguments, and don't make up their arguments for them. I'm going to call you out for it if you keep listing off fake reasons and ignore the actual points that people bring up. It's frustrating to have a conversation with someone who does this constantly.

Nobody is arguing the objective disparities in size. (PS, this aren't even 100% objective unless you actually believe that a player's listed height and weight especially are totally accurate.) What is being argued is the extent to which the size disparity matters. If you actually paid attention to the rationale and reasons presented, you would see why some don't think size is as big of a problem as you present.

The primary argument is the style of play in the league. It doesn't involve a lot of power game especially from the four. Instead, it's a spread pick and roll league with a heavy focus on the perimeter and spacing. Teams do not pound the rock inside like they used to. It's just too easy to defend that style of basketball, especially with Gobert. We're also not much smaller than last year. Favors was used at PF minimally. Jae was the primary PF and he doesn't have a gigantic size or strength advantage over the current guys. If you think it's going to be a massive problem now, it should have already been a problem with Jae and it wasn't at all. Jae's also incredibly overrated in terms of defense, hustle, and toughness.

The nature in which basketball is played, both offensively and defensively, as well as the way it's being officiated makes it difficult to take advantage of size on offense. You keep listing the PF's, but I'm not sure it's having the effect you think it is. When I see that list, I see a bunch of non issues because those teams won't attack with their size advantage or decide to use it all.

Then you have our own internal experience with this. The Jazz have had the size advantage with two bigs for years, and we haven't seen a benefit. It's also something our coaching staff clearly does not believe in. We've tried it, and it failed. We also have evidence of Bojan in more physical matchups. LeBron is arguably the most physically imposing player of all time, and Bojan does a decent job. Bojan was also took the hardest matchup for an elite defense last season. These aren't theories on how things played out, they actually happened and they shouldn't be discounted.

None of these arguments are new. Just repeating the same stuff.
What you are completely missing with the size issue is the rebounding. Yes power forwards are floating further out on the perimeter but most of the time they are still rebounding well. With Bogs or Ingles at the 4 we may end up getting eaten alive on the boards. Between Conley, Mitchell, Ingles and Bogs we don't have a single guy that is a good rebounder.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1643 » by KqWIN » Sun Jul 7, 2019 1:27 am

sipclip wrote:What you are completely missing with the size issue is the rebounding. Yes power forwards are floating further out on the perimeter but most of the time they are still rebounding well. With Bogs or Ingles at the 4 we may end up getting eaten alive on the boards. Between Conley, Mitchell, Ingles and Bogs we don't have a single guy that is a good rebounder.

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Oh, agreed on the rounding thing. I've been saying that a lot. The rebounding is a major concern and is what concerns me most about Bogey/Ingles.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1644 » by dr0welf » Sun Jul 7, 2019 1:56 am

KqWIN wrote:
sipclip wrote:What you are completely missing with the size issue is the rebounding. Yes power forwards are floating further out on the perimeter but most of the time they are still rebounding well. With Bogs or Ingles at the 4 we may end up getting eaten alive on the boards. Between Conley, Mitchell, Ingles and Bogs we don't have a single guy that is a good rebounder.

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Oh, agreed on the rounding thing. I've been saying that a lot. The rebounding is a major concern and is what concerns me most about Bogey/Ingles.


Actually we are seeing more guards rebounding and getting high numbers even with bigs playing. The reason I see is it's hard to get a rebound when you are camped at the 3pt line. Most 4's dont' even try for the offensive board if they are more then 15' away from the hoop, they just turn and run back down the court to get on defense. We have long players at almost all our positions and should be fine on the defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding we unfortunately are like the rest of the league and hardly try for them.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1645 » by sipclip » Sun Jul 7, 2019 2:04 am

dr0welf wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
sipclip wrote:What you are completely missing with the size issue is the rebounding. Yes power forwards are floating further out on the perimeter but most of the time they are still rebounding well. With Bogs or Ingles at the 4 we may end up getting eaten alive on the boards. Between Conley, Mitchell, Ingles and Bogs we don't have a single guy that is a good rebounder.

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Oh, agreed on the rounding thing. I've been saying that a lot. The rebounding is a major concern and is what concerns me most about Bogey/Ingles.


Actually we are seeing more guards rebounding and getting high numbers even with bigs playing. The reason I see is it's hard to get a rebound when you are camped at the 3pt line. Most 4's dont' even try for the offensive board if they are more then 15' away from the hoop, they just turn and run back down the court to get on defense. We have long players at almost all our positions and should be fine on the defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding we unfortunately are like the rest of the league and hardly try for them.
We do not have long players at all of our positions. Conley is a smaller pg, Mitchell is a tiny sg, Bogs has decent size at the 3 but doesn't have great length and is a poor rebounder and Green has always been a bad rebounder.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1646 » by dr0welf » Sun Jul 7, 2019 2:33 am

sipclip wrote:
dr0welf wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Oh, agreed on the rounding thing. I've been saying that a lot. The rebounding is a major concern and is what concerns me most about Bogey/Ingles.


Actually we are seeing more guards rebounding and getting high numbers even with bigs playing. The reason I see is it's hard to get a rebound when you are camped at the 3pt line. Most 4's dont' even try for the offensive board if they are more then 15' away from the hoop, they just turn and run back down the court to get on defense. We have long players at almost all our positions and should be fine on the defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding we unfortunately are like the rest of the league and hardly try for them.
We do not have long players at all of our positions. Conley is a smaller pg, Mitchell is a tiny sg, Bogs has decent size at the 3 but doesn't have great length and is a poor rebounder and Green has always been a bad rebounder.

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Mitchell makes up for his height with some long arms and massive hops. Ingles is tall for the 3 and Bogie was in the top 50 rebounders last year. We will miss some from Favors as he was a rebounding stud, but then their will be a few more rebounds available for our guys to get. We are not a rebounding elite team, but I don't see it as being a huge issue with how the 4's are not in position to get rebounds anymore and our C is an elite rebounder.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1647 » by sipclip » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:12 pm

dr0welf wrote:
sipclip wrote:
dr0welf wrote:
Actually we are seeing more guards rebounding and getting high numbers even with bigs playing. The reason I see is it's hard to get a rebound when you are camped at the 3pt line. Most 4's dont' even try for the offensive board if they are more then 15' away from the hoop, they just turn and run back down the court to get on defense. We have long players at almost all our positions and should be fine on the defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding we unfortunately are like the rest of the league and hardly try for them.
We do not have long players at all of our positions. Conley is a smaller pg, Mitchell is a tiny sg, Bogs has decent size at the 3 but doesn't have great length and is a poor rebounder and Green has always been a bad rebounder.

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Mitchell makes up for his height with some long arms and massive hops. Ingles is tall for the 3 and Bogie was in the top 50 rebounders last year. We will miss some from Favors as he was a rebounding stud, but then their will be a few more rebounds available for our guys to get. We are not a rebounding elite team, but I don't see it as being a huge issue with how the 4's are not in position to get rebounds anymore and our C is an elite rebounder.
Bogie was not in the top 50 rebounders and Mitchell despite being athletic has never been an above average rebounder. The same goes for Joe. Rebounding could be a major issue this year.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1648 » by sipclip » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:21 pm

I'm loving the spurs draft. All 3 guys look like future rotation guys. They are completely loaded right now at the guard spots with great young players in Murray, White, Walker, Weatherspoon and Johnson.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1649 » by dr0welf » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:24 pm

sipclip wrote:
dr0welf wrote:
sipclip wrote:We do not have long players at all of our positions. Conley is a smaller pg, Mitchell is a tiny sg, Bogs has decent size at the 3 but doesn't have great length and is a poor rebounder and Green has always been a bad rebounder.

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Mitchell makes up for his height with some long arms and massive hops. Ingles is tall for the 3 and Bogie was in the top 50 rebounders last year. We will miss some from Favors as he was a rebounding stud, but then their will be a few more rebounds available for our guys to get. We are not a rebounding elite team, but I don't see it as being a huge issue with how the 4's are not in position to get rebounds anymore and our C is an elite rebounder.
Bogie was not in the top 50 rebounders and Mitchell despite being athletic has never been an above average rebounder. The same goes for Joe. Rebounding could be a major issue this year.

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Your right. I just double checked myself as I got the stats from NBA.com. But I didn't notice the filter was on playoffs where Bogie was 47th ranked. Regular season he wasn't even close to as good per game. It might be a problem then, we will have to wait and see. I still don't think it is as big of a problem as teams really don't focus on offensive rebounding as much as they used to.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1650 » by dr0welf » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:25 pm

sipclip wrote:I'm loving the spurs draft. All 3 guys look like future rotation guys. They are completely loaded right now at the guard spots with great young players in Murray, White, Walker, Weatherspoon and Johnson.

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Are they going to keep them all? Some might be available if they can't... But I agree they look really good
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1651 » by dr0welf » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:35 pm

Does a CP3, Westbrook, Harden lineup work? I don't know if Houston should be pursuing a Westbrook trade. I think OKC would look Eastern conference before they look at any west anyway. Detroit would be an interesting place for him to get traded to, Miami as well.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1652 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 5:05 am

dr0welf wrote:Does a CP3, Westbrook, Harden lineup work? I don't know if Houston should be pursuing a Westbrook trade. I think OKC would look Eastern conference before they look at any west anyway. Detroit would be an interesting place for him to get traded to, Miami as well.

There is already a powerstruggle for the ball between CP3 and Harden. I don't see how adding the most ball-dominant player in the league would help things.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1653 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:00 pm

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And here's Denver improving.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1654 » by KqWIN » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:31 pm

DEN is my favorite to take the #1 seed. Still would love to see them in a playoff series.

BTW, that DEN trade is probably something fans here would cry about. How dare they trade a pick for a player on a one year deal.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1655 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:56 pm

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Trey Lyles anybody? Anybody?!!
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1656 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:04 pm

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Teams are so stupid. Why couldn't someone give him more money. THis is BS. They get to keep one of the best rotation pieces on their roster for close to the min...
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1657 » by KqWIN » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:04 pm

Trey Lyles is a big waste of talent and even bigger waste of balance and proprioception.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1658 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:06 pm

KqWIN wrote:Trey Lyles is a big waste of talent and even bigger waste of balance and proprioception.

Am I the only one who spellchecks proprioception every time I type it?
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1659 » by sipclip » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:34 pm

KqWIN wrote:DEN is my favorite to take the #1 seed. Still would love to see them in a playoff series.

BTW, that DEN trade is probably something fans here would cry about. How dare they trade a pick for a player on a one year deal.


They can afford to trade future 1sts because they are loaded with young players. He is also 25yrs old which fits perfectly with there core. The scary part about nugs now is that there one hole was that hybrid 3/4 which you were thinking would be filled by Michael Porter but now they have depth in that hole. I had the nugs as the favorites in the west and I still have them right there with the Lakers and Clippers.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019 

Post#1660 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:47 pm

Jabari is gone:
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