Around the NBA, Season 2018-2019

[Crunch 99]

OKC with a 0-3 start, including a home loss to the Kings. What's up with that?

Westbrook was out for the first two games, and for the third game against the Kings, one of the recaps said that Westbrook was all offense and no defense.

Strange starts all around in the West so far.

So Houston is going to get CP3 back for next game, but then Harden will miss the next couple of games with a sore hamstring and be reevaluated. I hope the Rockets don't land Butler. That would put them back in a super elite category with Golden State imo, assuming CP3, Harden and Butler are healthy for most of the games.

Meanwhile, OKC is still looking for it's first win.

[SoCalJazzFan]

I hope the Rockets don't land Butler. That would put them back in a super elite category with Golden State imo, assuming CP3, Harden and Butler are healthy for most of the games.

If the Rockets get Butler, it would be pretty pointless for the Jazz to try to get a 3rd impact player or even try to be competitive, other than making the playoffs, for a few years. At that time, unfortunately, Gobert and Mitchell will be up for bigger contracts which will make it more difficult to afford such a team. There are several reasons to pursue Butler hard right now.

[vryadli]

I hope the Rockets don't land Butler. That would put them back in a super elite category with Golden State imo, assuming CP3, Harden and Butler are healthy for most of the games.

If the Rockets get Butler, it would be pretty pointless for the Jazz to try to get a 3rd impact player or even try to be competitive, other than making the playoffs, for a few years. At that time, unfortunately, Gobert and Mitchell will be up for bigger contracts which will make it more difficult to afford such a team. There are several reasons to pursue Butler hard right now.

The Butler party sounds more and more desperate... I'm starting to feel that he is a Shiva incarnation, which destroy or create on will... or even just by sheer presence. I have to remind myself about

Some people were willing to change Gobert for KAT and now that talks about Butler... to make Utah a contender! And Rubio is already here...Funny how good the old Minny had to be according that perspective. Should be true contender at least.

[zero24gravity]

While the headline "four first round picks" at first blush seems insane payment for most players, including Butler, if you think about it a bit more, the Rockets are essentially unloading (presumably) Knights contract (over $30M the next two seasons) and Chriss (who has pretty much been a bust so far) along with those picks that they assume will be in the late 20s for Butler and their ongoing chance to be a championship team.

How many FRPs would it take for a team to take on Knight? At least one, perhaps two FRPs, particularly since those picks are projected to be at the end of the first round.

Would the TWolves value expiring contracts and the ability to spend this offseason in an attempt to acquire what they would perceive to be their 3rd star instead of an extra pick or two?

For example, in a 3-way deal, if:
Jazz out- Burks, Rubio, Bradley and two FRPs
Jazz in- Butler and Teague

Suns out- Chandler and FRP (probably the Bucks 2019) and maybe Melton
Suns in- Rubio

TWolves out- Butler, Teague
TWolves in- Burks, Bradley, Chandler, Melton (maybe) and two Jazz FRPs and Suns FRP

The TWolves would be hitting the reboot for one year as they wouldn't have a viable starting PG, but then would have 3 picks next draft, where theirs could be in the lottery, as well as cap space for next summer to chase their 3rd banana.

The Suns get their starting PG.

The Jazz get their 3rd difference maker (presuming DM is one) and essentially swap Rubio for Teague. While I love Rubio, as a player for his size and defense, I'm not sold that he will be able to replicate anywhere near his level of play the last half of last season and thus Teague might be a better fit for the Jazz, particularly on offense (admittedly there would be a drop in defense, but playing alongside Gobert and Butler, his defensive rating should improve).

A little pain for everyone, but upside for everyone as well.

This is VERY similar to something I've proposed more than once. But Butler's douchey-ness has soured me quite a bit.

[Cappy_Smurf]

I hope the Rockets don't land Butler. That would put them back in a super elite category with Golden State imo, assuming CP3, Harden and Butler are healthy for most of the games.

If the Rockets get Butler, it would be pretty pointless for the Jazz to try to get a 3rd impact player or even try to be competitive, other than making the playoffs, for a few years. At that time, unfortunately, Gobert and Mitchell will be up for bigger contracts which will make it more difficult to afford such a team. There are several reasons to pursue Butler hard right now.

Nah, with the way Utah has played GS for the last year, it's never pointless to build the best team possible. You never know when somebody will get injured right before or during the playoffs. Curry missed the first round last year, and Utah definitely could have had a chance to knock them out if they had met in that round. Chris Paul is always injured in the playoffs, and he's only getting older.

We all saw how excited the Warriors were to beat the Jazz on a tip in. Make no mistake about it, even if fans don't take the Jazz seriously, the Warriors don't like taking beat downs from anybody like Utah gave them last year. Even if they aren't willing to admit it publicly, I think it's fair to say that Utah has their respect at this point in their ability to compete.

Edit: I don't remember Utah having a winning record against the dubs 2 years ago, but I know during this last game, the dubs announcers mentioned Utah was the only team in the league to have a winning record against them for the last 2 years.

[Luigi]

You can only give 4 picks if you don't put any protections on them at all.

You messing with me, or is this some arcane trade rule?

It is an actual rule, the most FRPs a team can give up for a transaction is 4 and they have to be within a time period (I think 7 years), and they can't have protections, otherwise they would roll into each other or go beyond the 7 yrs. Alternatively, you could say that if the protection was met (e.g. pick fell into top 4) the receiving team would lose it, but the receiving team would never agree to that.

Ah, I knew about the max and the consecutive year parts. I did not know about the protections part.

So after looking into it, I think there can be creative protections, as long as they don't involve changes in years. They could convert to second rounders, or affect later protections.

I hope the Rockets don't land Butler. That would put them back in a super elite category with Golden State imo, assuming CP3, Harden and Butler are healthy for most of the games.

If the Rockets get Butler, it would be pretty pointless for the Jazz to try to get a 3rd impact player or even try to be competitive, other than making the playoffs, for a few years. At that time, unfortunately, Gobert and Mitchell will be up for bigger contracts which will make it more difficult to afford such a team. There are several reasons to pursue Butler hard right now.

I think we could still look at a 2021 playoff run with an addition summer 2020. Maybe even a 2020 playoff run if we add someone this summer.

GSW will go back to a 73 win team when Durant (or Thompson) leaves next summer. That will leave things open again.
Houston with Butler would start to drop off in a couple of years due to Chris Paul's health, and a lack of cap space.
Durant's landing spot will be a contender, but he too is getting older.
Other threats depend on how the 76ers and Celtics develop, and where AD goes, and total wild cards.

[Inigo Montoya]

I not on board with waiting team X out for a few seasons until they stop dominating. They way things work out is that there will always be a dominant team or two that are better than the rest. By the time the Warriors might end their run, there will be another team that is the one to beat. What are we going to do then, wait them out too? You owe it to your fans to put on the court the best team you can (when you're trying to be competitive and not tank, which is a different situation altogether), and taking this kind of approach certainly doesn't do that, but in fact does the opposite. It avoids from putting together the best team the franchise can for several years, which is a big middle finger to anyone who spends money on the team.

[Crunch 99]

I think Butler is probably a more ideal fit for the Rockets than the Jazz, where he could continue to get a lot of minutes at the positions he has played his entire career, shooting guard and small forward, and where he will likely come in and defer to established veteran All Star Harden and CP3's leadership, thus fitting in more seamlessly than he would with the Jazz. But I sure hope the Rockets don't get him!

[TO11]

For those who think the Jazz should aggressively go after Jimmy Butler, Woj is reporting Houston offering 4 future 1st round draft picks....

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25083858/houston-rockets-offer-wolves-four-first-round-draft-picks-jimmy-butler

I am sorry but this is insane, I wouldn't want the Jazz to pay a price this high. I don't know where people got the idea that the price for Jimmy B would be cheap, but maybe that's why he hasn't been traded yet. Honestly since the start of the season, I have leaned more towards go after Butler, but if this is the return that Minnesota is expecting I think that price is just too high for my conservative taste.

Yep, that's a lot, and it doesn't even include the players and salaries that will have to be a part of the trade to make it work. If that is the price, then I wouldn't do it, given his contract situation. But it does show what a front office that is desperate about winning a championship looks like.

Fixed it.

[Rauxcee]

Some here might say the FO doesn't want to win a championship, I say that's tomfoolery and the FO is realistic about their chances. Short of 1 of the top 5 players in the league joining the team in FA, there is no way to make us contenders.

And honestly, the Warriors are in ridiculous mode this season. Unless KD or Curry blow out a knee no one is beating them anyway this year or next. Maybe even the following year. It's unbelievable how those players can get so hot shooting. Unbelievable.

[TO11]

Some here might say the FO doesn't want to win a championship, I say that's tomfoolery and the FO is realistic about their chances. Short of 1 of the top 5 players in the league joining the team in FA, there is no way to make us contenders.

And honestly, the Warriors are in ridiculous mode this season. Unless KD or Curry blow out a knee no one is beating them anyway this year or next. Maybe even the following year. It's unbelievable how those players can get so hot shooting. Unbelievable.

Man I couldn't agree more, the Warriors have been insane so far and they don't even have Cousins back yet. I keep going back and forth on if the Jazz could make a move to get in realistic contention for a Championship. After we played the Warriors I was thinking that if we acquired Butler that we could actually maybe win a title. But it literally took one of our best games to play them close enough to lose by 1. Granted I think that they actually did give it their all that game, it's still disheartening to know with us playing that well we still came up short.

[Luigi]

The championship window closes when we start having to pay for Mitchell (summer 2021).

We may not be ready for a title this year. But that's not the real question. All the moves we've been discussing involve guys that will probably be around for that duration. Butler might be the exception, a one year rental, but the hope would be to resign him after proving we are close, and Mitchell is improving.

2019 playoffs belong to the Warriors.

2020 there will be a new field.
-Durant or Thompson will be gone. So will Cousins.
-Lebron will be significantly older (bad).
-Mitchell will be significantly older (good).
-Boston will have to make choices by then.
-Chris Paul will be significantly older (bad).

You can't control for everything. But the Warriors dominance will be over by the time we should be looking to strike. 2020, 2021 are potential years. Getting the right piece, and letting it gel and develop are things to balance. Failing to make an attempt in that window by adding a major piece with our cap space would be disappointing.

I also think we are only 1all-star-convo piece away from true title contention.

[Rauxcee]

I don't think Butler makes us contenders. I don't think Paul George did either. They make us better for sure, and it would have been nice to have them, but they don't make us contenders.

The only players I see making us contenders are Lebron, Curry, Durant, and possibly Leonard and Davis. I don't think anyone else puts us there.

I also think Durant and Thompson will re-sign and be on the Warriors next season. Draymond is the odd man out IMO.

[Luigi]

I don't think Butler makes us contenders. I don't think Paul George did either. They make us better for sure, and it would have been nice to have them, but they don't make us contenders.

The only players I see making us contenders are Lebron, Curry, Durant, and possibly Leonard and Davis. I don't think anyone else puts us there.

I also think Durant and Thompson will re-sign and be on the Warriors next season. Draymond is the odd man out IMO.

I think a top 5 player would make us favorites. But I'm down just to be a contender, who could maybe make it happen in the finals. That would mean a top 40ish player.

If the Warriors bring back Durant and Thompson this summer at near max deals, they will be in crazy land with repeater tax costs. Very few teams ever pay the tax, and those that do don't go into tax terrirory very far. The Warriors will be looking at something like 300 million just in tax if they do for that year. I think Durant is leaving. But if he doesn't leave, they're letting Thompson walk, or trading Green for an expirer before it comes to that. I don't think they'll trade Green for an expirer. Maybe they'll bite that bullet for a season. But at those numbers, it would be something like twice as expensive as anything we've ever seen before, all for one guy.

[BudTugly]

The championship window closes when we start having to pay for Mitchell (summer 2021).

We may not be ready for a title this year. But that's not the real question. All the moves we've been discussing involve guys that will probably be around for that duration. Butler might be the exception, a one year rental, but the hope would be to resign him after proving we are close, and Mitchell is improving.

2019 playoffs belong to the Warriors.

2020 there will be a new field.
-Durant or Thompson will be gone. So will Cousins.
-Lebron will be significantly older (bad).
-Mitchell will be significantly older (good).
-Boston will have to make choices by then.
-Chris Paul will be significantly older (bad).

You can't control for everything. But the Warriors dominance will be over by the time we should be looking to strike. 2020, 2021 are potential years. Getting the right piece, and letting it gel and develop are things to balance. Failing to make an attempt in that window by adding a major piece with our cap space would be disappointing.

I also think we are only 1all-star-convo piece away from true title contention.

This team can contend this year, with this roster depending on just a couple things. If Rubio can hit enough shots, if Exum is for real, and if Mitchell can take even a small step forward. The adjustment getting all these free dunks by the bigs is huge. Ingles is clearly amazing. The depth is just unfair.

If this team has a weakness I’d like to hear about it. To my eye it’s just not having branded superstars. Everybody plays defense, everyone is buying in, there aren’t any albatrosses holding us back. They all seem to genuinely enjoy each other.

There could easily be a trade sometime but if there isn’t one I would resist the idea of complacency.

[stitches]

The championship window closes when we start having to pay for Mitchell (summer 2021).

IMO that's very far from the truth. IMO the championship window will start when we get another impact piece and this can happen up to the summer we have to pay Mitchell and the window for contention will extend well into Mitchell's new contract. The problem is... we need to get another impact piece by the time we pay Mitchell and that impact piece needs to project to be still good during Mitchell's new contract/prime... otherwise there will be no championship window.

[Inigo Montoya]

Some here might say the FO doesn't want to win a championship, I say that's tomfoolery and the FO is realistic about their chances. Short of 1 of the top 5 players in the league joining the team in FA, there is no way to make us contenders.

And honestly, the Warriors are in ridiculous mode this season. Unless KD or Curry blow out a knee no one is beating them anyway this year or next. Maybe even the following year. It's unbelievable how those players can get so hot shooting. Unbelievable.

Okay, let's just give up and do nothing then. For all the talk about how tanking is unsportsmanlike and anti-competitive, just throwing in the towel and making a conscious decision to deliberately not get better because you think the other team is so much better that there is no point of significantly improving your team because it'll never pose a real threat to them is infinitely worse imho.

Also, no one said the FO doesn't want to win a championship - that is a gross misrepresentation of what was said, which is they are very comfortable in putting together a team that makes the playoffs and doesn't have a real shot at a ring year after year, and that they are unwilling to do whatever it takes to win a championship. In fact, your post pretty much backs up this very assertion, since you seem to be giving up on championship contention as long as the Warriors exist with their core roster.

[vryadli]

It is funny that currently both Carmelo teams - current and previous are in the same place he kept Knicks for so long. The very bottom. He is plague incarnated, bring the doom and leave a scorched soil behind!

[Inigo Montoya]

Can't believe no one has brought up Klay Thompson's performance from last night. 52 points in 27 minutes, and breaking the league's record for most 3s made in a game with 14. In 27 minutes. Insane.

[TO11]

Can't believe no one has brought up Klay Thompson's performance from last night. 52 points in 27 minutes, and breaking the league's record for most 3s made in a game with 14. In 27 minutes. Insane.

It's just another reminder of why we aren't close to touching the Warriors. But yeah insane. The whole season has just been over the top with scoring. The game is definitely changing before our eyes.