Shams: Jazz trade for Conley...

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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#81 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 pm

On the bright side, while we gave up Grayson, we kept Tony F'ing Bradley!
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#82 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 pm

stitches wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:Now what happens if Conley leaves next year and Rudy is pissed off and leaves in 2021? We very well might give Memphis a top 10 pick in the double draft.

That might actually be one of the better outcomes. At least this way we'll be able to re-build and hopefully construct a better team around DM's timeline over time. The alternative is that Conely stays for the duration of his contract so we won't be able to get the 3rd piece we need for the long term. Then he leaves once his contract is up with the Jazz getting no where special during his stint, and the Jazz are left capped out with DM's max and Gobert's supermax and treadmilling for the next 5 seasons.

So... we extend Mitchell(4) years... we waste his 1st year(pick goes to MEM)... and we have 3 years to build a team from zero before Mitchell himself bolts... good luck with that. If we were going to build around Mitchell and not around Gobert's prime we should have traded Gobert now and not traded our picks.

Preaching to the choir. Fine, you win, both options suck. Better?
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#83 » by Daddy 801 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:We're not going to even make the WCF. What's likely to happen is that the rest of the teams who have yet to make their moves, will make them during the draft and free agency, and get better. In the end, we'll still end up as the 4-5 seed again, and will again have a 1st-2nd round exit.


I get that this is a win now move, but I don't jive with the logic that if we don't win a championship it is a failure. If we're holding this move to a standard, then we must also hold the other side of the deal that standard. For example, if the picks and cap space do not eventually lead to a championship, it is also failure.

The sky is always falling in the NBA, but in reality, neither direction actually increases our championship odds on a ton. Conley doesn't make us a championship juggernaut. But late first round picks and $30M in cap space when every max player is off the board also does not make you a championship juggernaut.

I'm not arguing we should win a championship for this to be worth it. I've been very consistent in my stance that I want the Jazz to be a legit contender, even if we fail to actually win a championship. That's the measuring stick for me. I don't think this trade makes us a legit contender. In fact, I think we'll probably end up in the 4-5 seed range again and the 1st-2nd round exit range again.


I agree with your assessment of what should be expected. If the Jazz aren’t a top 3 team in the regular season and fail to make the WCF, then this will be a bad trade.

The thing the Jazz better hope for is a top 1-2 seed to avoid playing the better teams until later in the playoffs.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#84 » by KqWIN » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:We're not going to even make the WCF. What's likely to happen is that the rest of the teams who have yet to make their moves, will make them during the draft and free agency, and get better. In the end, we'll still end up as the 4-5 seed again, and will again have a 1st-2nd round exit.


I get that this is a win now move, but I don't jive with the logic that if we don't win a championship it is a failure. If we're holding this move to a standard, then we must also hold the other side of the deal that standard. For example, if the picks and cap space do not eventually lead to a championship, it is also failure.

The sky is always falling in the NBA, but in reality, neither direction actually increases our championship odds on a ton. Conley doesn't make us a championship juggernaut. But late first round picks and $30M in cap space when every max player is off the board also does not make you a championship juggernaut.

I'm not arguing we should win a championship for this to be worth it. I've been very consistent in my stance that I want the Jazz to be a legit contender, even if we fail to actually win a championship. That's the measuring stick for me. I don't think this trade makes us a legit contender. In fact, I think we'll probably end up in the 4-5 seed range again and the 1st-2nd round exit range again.

Also, no max player is off the board--free agency hasn't even started yet. We gave up even trying. Conley didn't have many takers at the price we paid, he'd likely still be on the trading block if\when we struck out. And if he wouldn't--at the price we paid that's no loss.


Yeah, I was mostly replying to babyjax. I just think that people need to understand that what we gave up wasn't likely to amount to a championship either. People are seeing late first rounders and cap space through rose colored glasses. You've got to be incredibly optimistic to think that what we gave up would likely lead to a championship. Just as you would to think that Conley will win us a championship.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#86 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:16 pm

KqWIN wrote:Yeah, I was mostly replying to babyjax. I just think that people need to understand that what we gave up wasn't likely to amount to a championship either. People are seeing late first rounders and cap space through rose colored glasses. You've got to be incredibly optimistic to think that what we gave up would likely lead to a championship. Just as you would to think that Conley will win us a championship.


Then what's point of this move? It completely FUBARs our future, while we get nowhere in the present. It's not just giving up the draft picks, which is bad enough, but the fact that we gave up any ability to build a better team for the next 5 years after Conley leaves. We gave up the only time we'll have significant cap space for a 32 year old rental. What are we going to do to improve the team once he leaves and we are capped out with DM's max and Gobert's supermax?
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#87 » by Fischella » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:19 pm

Luigi wrote:I think draft picks are overrated. It's critical to hit on some of them, but they miss a lot of the time.

We still have the Non-Tax MLE and the Bi-Annual Exception if we want it. Who do you like for 9.2 and 3.6 million?

Incorrect, you are an under the cap team to be able to absord Mike when the moratorium is over by July 6th, so you have access to the room MLE not full MLE
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#88 » by Fischella » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:23 pm

I hope the Jazz go back to Europe to fish guys like they did with Ekpe (going back to Europe to get paid and play from what I know, rumored to be getting ~$15M for 3 years AFTER taxes) and O'Neale

They should really really go hard after Nicòlo Melli from Fener

You aren't getting a player of Crowder's level that can unlock your best lineup with room-MLE and BAE
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#89 » by KqWIN » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:24 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Yeah, I was mostly replying to babyjax. I just think that people need to understand that what we gave up wasn't likely to amount to a championship either. People are seeing late first rounders and cap space through rose colored glasses. You've got to be incredibly optimistic to think that what we gave up would likely lead to a championship. Just as you would to think that Conley will win us a championship.


Then what's point of this move? It completely FUBARs our future, while we get nowhere in the present. It's not just giving up the draft picks, which is bad enough, but the fact that we gave up any ability to build a better team for the next 5 years after Conley leaves. We gave up the only time we'll have significant cap space for a 32 year old rental. What are we going to do to improve the team once he leaves and we are capped out with DM's max and Gobert's supermax?


The point is that the Jazz acquired the best player possible this season and are trying to win as much as they can this year.

Again, I'm not acting as a proponent of this trade. I'm playing devils advocate, and the least we can do is give the same consideration to both sides. What did you expect to get out of what we lost? If Conley is a failure because he does not bring a championship, then you must have the expectation that what we gave up would have brought a championship otherwise.

It's a now versus later argument. The later argument is completely based on hope, but you can also have hope about what Conley does for this team now.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#90 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:25 pm

When it comes down to it, I would have been ok, even happy, to trade for Conley after July 6th once we realized that the Jazz weren't an option for DLo (I'm already convinced that they weren't for Tobias), and if it would have been for whomever the Grizzlies would have told us to select Thurs night (I would have been ok taking the chance of having to keep that player if the trade didn't come to fruition if we got DLo), Bradley instead of Grayson, and protections that didn't extend so far out.

That this wasn't done in February, when the cost couldn't have been any higher, is pretty mind boggling.

The need for the Jazz to trade into the upper portion of the second round this draft and get a decent role player on a bargain deal is even more pronounced now.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#91 » by Fischella » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:30 pm

KqWIN wrote:The thing I hate the most about this trade will be the "we were able to keep Favors" boasting. Yeah, we kept Favors. We have very little to no resources to fill 48 minutes of PF minutes in the playoffs.

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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#92 » by sunevisions » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:31 pm

seems I am the only one who likes the trade~~ yes, we can't steal the value from Mem, but at least it's a fair trade~~

all of our trade out, I only miss Jae Crowder. But I think we can find a replacement in FA (MLE)
Grayson Allen- his ceiling is role player
Kyle Korver- he is more than 50% retire
23 Pick- late pick in a weak draft
future pick- probably convert in 21/22, if we can lock down DM & Gobert, 14-20 should be a reasonable pick

I like Conley pair with DM as our backcourt~~, both can play on/off the ball, can shoot~~

I think Conley is the best player that we can add in this summer~~ After KD injury, D'Angelo Russell won't be our player~~

the only problem of this trade is Conley's injury history and leave when his contract expires ~~ but I would rather gamble
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#93 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:32 pm

Fischella wrote:I hope the Jazz go back to Europe to fish guys like they did with Ekpe (going back to Europe to get paid and play from what I know, rumored to be getting ~$15M for 3 years AFTER taxes) and O'Neale

They should really really go hard after Nicòlo Melli from Fener

You aren't getting a player of Crowder's level that can unlock your best lineup with room-MLE and BAE

That is a great suggestion. I assume we would have to sign him using one of the exceptions, correct?

The Jazz have been tied to him as having interest as recently as last year: https://hoopshype.com/rumor/1204450/ via @hoopshype
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#94 » by Fischella » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:33 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
Fischella wrote:I hope the Jazz go back to Europe to fish guys like they did with Ekpe (going back to Europe to get paid and play from what I know, rumored to be getting ~$15M for 3 years AFTER taxes) and O'Neale

They should really really go hard after Nicòlo Melli from Fener

You aren't getting a player of Crowder's level that can unlock your best lineup with room-MLE and BAE

That is a great suggestion. I assume we would have to sign him using one of the exceptions, correct?

The Jazz have been tied to him as having interest as recently as last year: https://hoopshype.com/rumor/1204450/ via @hoopshype

yeah at least BAE

No chance he comes for the minimum, he also has a big offer from CSKA

I'd promise him the BAE right this moment
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#95 » by Luigi » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:42 pm

Fischella wrote:
Luigi wrote:I think draft picks are overrated. It's critical to hit on some of them, but they miss a lot of the time.

We still have the Non-Tax MLE and the Bi-Annual Exception if we want it. Who do you like for 9.2 and 3.6 million?

Incorrect, you are an under the cap team to be able to absord Mike when the moratorium is over by July 6th, so you have access to the room MLE not full MLE


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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#96 » by Winglish » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:45 pm

I'M SOOOO EXCITED!!!!

Not being sarcastic. I think the Jazz overpaid but this is a 55 win team if everyone stays healthy. This team is in the mix.

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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#97 » by Ikeizm » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:46 pm

Wow. I never thought getting a great PG for basically nothing essential, would feel so crumby... But it does. I really thought the Jazz could have a chance at a dynamic duo with DLO and DM. Oh well, Conley's a great player and will make the Jazz better. No doubt. But I do think they gave away too much. Especially if it was too keep Favors.

With all our cap space essentially gone, what else could the Jazz do to make more room, for a PF that can shoot? How much could they create if they traded Ingles, Favors, and Exum? I mean is there anyway they can still come out of this with another dynamic player?
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#98 » by sipclip » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:48 pm

Winglish wrote:I'M SOOOO EXCITED!!!!

Not being sarcastic. I think the Jazz overpaid but this is a 55 win team if everyone stays healthy. This team is in the mix.

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Highly unlikely. This team is maybe 5th or 6th in the west if healthy but zero depth. If injuries hit things could be real bad real quick. We are now locked in as a middle tier playoff team at best with no route to get better. Pretty sad.

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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#99 » by jazzfanWA » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:55 pm

The great thing about being a jazz fan since the early eighties is that you become numb to all this. You just wait for the season to play out.
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Re: Shams: Jazz trade for Conley... 

Post#100 » by Crunch 99 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:13 pm

West is wide open imo. At the moment, I like our chances as well as anyone else's in the West. Changing Rubio for Conley probably weakens our D some, but we've still got a good shot at claiming the number one D in the West. And Changing Rubio for Conley significantly improves our offense.

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