Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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- Sixth Man
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Sap/Jabari vs Fav
I would like to ask You guys who do You think is better for Jazz right now, of course if we wont retain Fav and Nuggs do the same with Sap. As i hear for now Sap is supposed to stay in Denver for 19/20 but who knows... if not Sap maybe Jabarie would be good solution for us, he played relatively good season, 64 games 15 pts on 48%, dude is who he is but next to b2b dpoty he could pan out
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
An important point about Favors is that for the last 3 years we made the playoffs, he eventually loses significant minutes and the starting spot when we played GS or HOU. So can we really justify a paying 16+ ml to a guy who turns into a decent role player at best that we could get for the low exception the further we go into the playoffs (That may be kinda harsh since he can still be very impactful in short minutes)?
As for Millsap ... he'll be 35 during next season. At some point players hit a road block and it would be just our luck that happens with us after we pay him alot of money for multiple years.
Jabari ... I've thought we have learned over the years that you can't cover up a weak defensive link no matter what. We should know the best since we had Boozer, Jefferson, Kanter, ect ...
I would prefer to go after experienced guys, who are not too old, wouldn't cost us too much money, and doesn't kill us on either end of the court if we waive favors. Someone like Marcus Morris or Thaddeus Young, which we could probably sign them and still offer a decent contract to another vet. Gotta be smart with our cap after the Conley trade.
As for Millsap ... he'll be 35 during next season. At some point players hit a road block and it would be just our luck that happens with us after we pay him alot of money for multiple years.
Jabari ... I've thought we have learned over the years that you can't cover up a weak defensive link no matter what. We should know the best since we had Boozer, Jefferson, Kanter, ect ...
I would prefer to go after experienced guys, who are not too old, wouldn't cost us too much money, and doesn't kill us on either end of the court if we waive favors. Someone like Marcus Morris or Thaddeus Young, which we could probably sign them and still offer a decent contract to another vet. Gotta be smart with our cap after the Conley trade.
BRING JAMAAL FRANKLIN TO UTAH!!!!!
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
reapaman wrote:An important point about Favors is that for the last 3 years we made the playoffs, he eventually loses significant minutes and the starting spot when we played GS or HOU. So can we really justify a paying 16+ ml to a guy who turns into a decent role player at best that we could get for the low exception the further we go into the playoffs (That may be kinda harsh since he can still be very impactful in short minutes)?
As for Millsap ... he'll be 35 during next season. At some point players hit a road block and it would be just our luck that happens with us after we pay him alot of money for multiple years.
Jabari ... I've thought we have learned over the years that you can't cover up a weak defensive link no matter what. We should know the best since we had Boozer, Jefferson, Kanter, ect ...
I would prefer to go after experienced guys, who are not too old, wouldn't cost us too much money, and doesn't kill us on either end of the court if we waive favors. Someone like Marcus Morris or Thaddeus Young, which we could probably sign them and still offer a decent contract to another vet. Gotta be smart with our cap after the Conley trade.
for sure Thad would be great, about Parker ok, but with Gob and in present nba i dont think we would see his lack of his def impact
PS although Al was poor defender i would not put his name next to Booz and specialy Kanter
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
Thad is intersting. You would think that he's the right type of athlete to guard LeBron...but he we didn't see that matchup much. It was mostly Bogdanovic.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
reapaman wrote:An important point about Favors is that for the last 3 years we made the playoffs, he eventually loses significant minutes and the starting spot when we played GS or HOU. So can we really justify a paying 16+ ml to a guy who turns into a decent role player at best that we could get for the low exception the further we go into the playoffs (That may be kinda harsh since he can still be very impactful in short minutes)?
As for Millsap ... he'll be 35 during next season. At some point players hit a road block and it would be just our luck that happens with us after we pay him alot of money for multiple years.
Jabari ... I've thought we have learned over the years that you can't cover up a weak defensive link no matter what. We should know the best since we had Boozer, Jefferson, Kanter, ect ...
I would prefer to go after experienced guys, who are not too old, wouldn't cost us too much money, and doesn't kill us on either end of the court if we waive favors. Someone like Marcus Morris or Thaddeus Young, which we could probably sign them and still offer a decent contract to another vet. Gotta be smart with our cap after the Conley trade.
Another way of looking at Favors though, is that he consistently plays like a man in the playoffs and wins us games. Can we afford losing that guy?
If it's for Harris (and we keep Ingles), we can give him up. Otherwise, I don't think we're any better off.
I'd take a 2 year deal on Millsap. But Denver will just keep him another year if they can't work out an extension. https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254450/Nuggets-Comfortable-Exercising-$30M-Option-On-Paul-Millsap-If-They-Cant-Agree-To-Longer-Deal
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
I think presenting Favors as an easily replaceable piece is not right. Yes, backup center is usually easily replaceable. Backup center of Favors' quality is NOT easily replaceable. You can replace the 35th best center with the 50th best center and not feel much of a decline... when you are replacing the 10th best center with the 50th there will be significant drop.
I'm good with the argument that this money might be better used elsewhere, but lets not get it mixed up here - we WON'T easily replace Favors, especially at his backup 5 role. Where he's easily replaceable is at the 4 because of the poor fit with Gobert.
I'm good with the argument that this money might be better used elsewhere, but lets not get it mixed up here - we WON'T easily replace Favors, especially at his backup 5 role. Where he's easily replaceable is at the 4 because of the poor fit with Gobert.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
He's also a 28 mpg bigman. Calling him a backup center isn't completely accurate. Bigs don't often play a ton of minutes in the first place.
I liked the line Tony Jones drew on moving Favors earlier. The team doesn't do it unless they are absolutely sure it makes us better, and that seems to be around the Tobias Harris range.
I liked the line Tony Jones drew on moving Favors earlier. The team doesn't do it unless they are absolutely sure it makes us better, and that seems to be around the Tobias Harris range.
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
I like Jabari in the 10th man type role. He has good offense. But the type of money he demands, and even the minutes he tries to demand are starter quality, and he is just not good enough to justify the money or the minutes he wants.
2 bad knees and little to no attention on defense, he should be grateful NBA teams are still looking at him. He and Jimmer occupy the same space in my brain - roster filler.
2 bad knees and little to no attention on defense, he should be grateful NBA teams are still looking at him. He and Jimmer occupy the same space in my brain - roster filler.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
If there was one player I would like to never hear brought up again as a Jazz target, it would be Parker. (Ok, maybe Jimmer is one I despise even more.)
Unless he's signing on a vet minimum or mid-level exception, short term contract, has the expectation of being nothing more than a 10-19mpg bench scorer, and actually decides that defense matters ..... Just, no.
Unless he's signing on a vet minimum or mid-level exception, short term contract, has the expectation of being nothing more than a 10-19mpg bench scorer, and actually decides that defense matters ..... Just, no.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
- Inigo Montoya
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
zero24gravity wrote:If there was one player I would like to never hear brought up again as a Jazz target, it would be Parker. (Ok, maybe Jimmer is one I despise even more.)
Tough luck. The Conley trade was just a ploy to cap out the Jazz so they could justify signing Jimmer, who was the real target all along
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?
The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
Luigi wrote:He's also a 28 mpg bigman. Calling him a backup center isn't completely accurate. Bigs don't often play a ton of minutes in the first place.
I liked the line Tony Jones drew on moving Favors earlier. The team doesn't do it unless they are absolutely sure it makes us better, and that seems to be around the Tobias Harris range.
He played 20 mpg this playoffs, lost his starting job, and we almost got swept by Houston, but didn't only due to Houston shooting going flat one game.
He played 18 mpg vs Houston last year, also lost his starting job and we again were almost swept by Houston, but didn't due to the same reasoning.
He lost his starting job the year before and only played 10 mpg vs GS and we got swept.
He also played only 23 mpg in this regular season we win 50 games. He played 28 mpg the year before and we win 48 games. He plays 23 mpg the year before that and we win 51 games.
This is like when people made a big deal about Hayward and I was screaming he was easily replaceable. We get zero compensation for Hayward and we haven't missed a beat without him. We have to stop over valuing our guys. We can win around the same amount of games and get swept or almost swept without him. There zero downside for cutting him ... zero.
If we cut him then not only do we get salary to play with, we get the big exception also. More options than what we currently have. We need depth and a better fit at starting PF.
BRING JAMAAL FRANKLIN TO UTAH!!!!!
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
reapaman wrote:Luigi wrote:He's also a 28 mpg bigman. Calling him a backup center isn't completely accurate. Bigs don't often play a ton of minutes in the first place.
I liked the line Tony Jones drew on moving Favors earlier. The team doesn't do it unless they are absolutely sure it makes us better, and that seems to be around the Tobias Harris range.
He played 20 mpg this playoffs, lost his starting job, and we almost got swept by Houston, but didn't only due to Houston shooting going flat one game.
He played 18 mpg vs Houston last year, also lost his starting job and we again were almost swept by Houston, but didn't due to the same reasoning.
He lost his starting job the year before and only played 10 mpg vs GS and we got swept.
He also played only 23 mpg in this regular season we win 50 games. He played 28 mpg the year before and we win 48 games. He plays 23 mpg the year before that and we win 51 games.
This is like when people made a big deal about Hayward and I was screaming he was easily replaceable. We get zero compensation for Hayward and we haven't missed a beat without him. We have to stop over valuing our guys. We can win around the same amount of games and get swept or almost swept without him. There zero downside for cutting him ... zero.
If we cut him then not only do we get salary to play with, we get the big exception also. More options than what we currently have. We need depth and a better fit at starting PF.
He also got us our only win against Houston. And if I recall correctly, the same goes for 2018.
He is replaceable, but we only get better if we replace him with a star at the 4. Tobias Harris is the line.
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
To me it's either Tobias or Fav. All this other nonsense to replace Favs with this mediocre talent is laughable. Even with guys like Bogdan, you know how much ****ing rebounding and toughness you lose when you get a stretch 4 like him? Guys like that are meant to come off the bench. You gotta go for a guy like JaMychal Green if you can afford him to backup Favs if you don't get Tobias.
DL isn't looking for a soft stretch 4 to replace Favors, he's looking for a legit playmaking 4. Favors was a borderline all-star not too long ago, and he hasn't really dropped off a cliff, just has a different role. Favors isn't going anywhere unless we get a bonafide great player in return.
DL isn't looking for a soft stretch 4 to replace Favors, he's looking for a legit playmaking 4. Favors was a borderline all-star not too long ago, and he hasn't really dropped off a cliff, just has a different role. Favors isn't going anywhere unless we get a bonafide great player in return.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
Luigi wrote:He's also a 28 mpg bigman. Calling him a backup center isn't completely accurate. Bigs don't often play a ton of minutes in the first place.
I liked the line Tony Jones drew on moving Favors earlier. The team doesn't do it unless they are absolutely sure it makes us better, and that seems to be around the Tobias Harris range.
Fav is a backup in terms how much he is playing, 23 mins for 17 mln$ looks strange, plus playing him next to Gob is not working and wont work in future. So he is a backup, and we dont have a good quality pf, thats simply dumb, you dont have good player to mate with Gob yet you are paying a backup center lot of money.
PS Every one know i like Fav a lot, honestly i like him much more than Gob, and big reason for that is how bot of them play in post season, Fav like a man Gob like a wuss. As for me i would not hesitate to give starting 5 job to Fav, only problem with that would be how he would stand whole rs playing 30+ mins, i guess he could have problem with that as history shows.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
He's career 26 mpg, and I think he's looking at 28 this season with Crowder gone and Conley here. We'll see though.
Backup centers play 18, Favors plays backup center and backup power forward. He fills two positions at a better than backup level. Calling him a backup center by itself just isn't very accurate.
Serge Ibaka got 23.3 last season
Aaron Gordon got 19.9
Draymond Green got 18.5
Derrick Favors got 16.9
James Johnson got 15.3
Marvin Williams got 15.0
Larry Nance got 12.7
Backup centers play 18, Favors plays backup center and backup power forward. He fills two positions at a better than backup level. Calling him a backup center by itself just isn't very accurate.
Serge Ibaka got 23.3 last season
Aaron Gordon got 19.9
Draymond Green got 18.5
Derrick Favors got 16.9
James Johnson got 15.3
Marvin Williams got 15.0
Larry Nance got 12.7
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
I don't get the Tobias Harris love. I forgot he was on the 76ers in the playoffs ... he vanished. He's just going to blend in and be an highly overpaid spot up shooter at best since Conley and Mitchell will be controlling the ball mostly. We can find one of those for way cheaper.
Favors has been mediocre in the playoffs at best versus good teams and loses minutes and his starting role as we play tougher teams. He has proved he is nothing but another guy ... easily replaceable. I also strongly dispute he won us any playoff games. It was all Houston just having bad shooting nights. We lose nothing letting him go and gain alot more cap flexibility.
We need depth, we literally have no bench ... only hopeful and the guy we are trying to hold on too lost minutes and his starting job multiple times to Ingles or Crowder. Lindsey killed any depth possibility we have without waiving Favors and Favors should''t be with Gobert anyway. We could get like 3 players that are just as impactful when it counts as Favors if we waive him.
Favors has been mediocre in the playoffs at best versus good teams and loses minutes and his starting role as we play tougher teams. He has proved he is nothing but another guy ... easily replaceable. I also strongly dispute he won us any playoff games. It was all Houston just having bad shooting nights. We lose nothing letting him go and gain alot more cap flexibility.
We need depth, we literally have no bench ... only hopeful and the guy we are trying to hold on too lost minutes and his starting job multiple times to Ingles or Crowder. Lindsey killed any depth possibility we have without waiving Favors and Favors should''t be with Gobert anyway. We could get like 3 players that are just as impactful when it counts as Favors if we waive him.
BRING JAMAAL FRANKLIN TO UTAH!!!!!
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
reapaman wrote:I also strongly dispute he won us any playoff games. It was all Houston just having bad shooting nights.
I don't buy it. I think it was pretty clear that Favors balled out to win those games. He played more minutes than Gobert did in our win against Houston this year (24:13 to 23:47) and he had 6 offensive rebounds, many in key sequences. And 12 points on 7 shots.
We need depth, Lindsey killed any depth possibility we have without waiving Favors and Favors should''t be with Gobert anyway. We could get like 3 players that are just as impactful when it counts as Favors if we waive him.
Favors is depth. I wanna see how he does next to a point guard who has a jumper, and who can run the pick and roll. He's played well next to Gobert under those conditions. Rubio's departure and Conley's arrival makes Favors much more interesting to me.
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
Luigi wrote:reapaman wrote:I also strongly dispute he won us any playoff games. It was all Houston just having bad shooting nights.
I don't buy it. I think it was pretty clear that Favors balled out to win those games. He played more minutes than Gobert did in our win against Houston this year (24:13 to 23:47) and he had 6 offensive rebounds, many in key sequences. And 12 points on 7 shots.We need depth, Lindsey killed any depth possibility we have without waiving Favors and Favors should''t be with Gobert anyway. We could get like 3 players that are just as impactful when it counts as Favors if we waive him.
Favors is depth. I wanna see how he does next to a point guard who has a jumper, and who can run the pick and roll. He's played well next to Gobert under those conditions. Rubio's departure and Conley's arrival makes Favors much more interesting to me.
about what depth You are talking about, we dont have good starting pf and thats it, plus about Mike jr i remember this talk about Ricki when he was coming here, how he will push ball to our bigs etc. lets be honest things wont change, we have two good quality centers and non of them can play on 4 spot, Conley wont change that despite he is good shooter
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
eLo wrote:Luigi wrote:reapaman wrote:I also strongly dispute he won us any playoff games. It was all Houston just having bad shooting nights.
I don't buy it. I think it was pretty clear that Favors balled out to win those games. He played more minutes than Gobert did in our win against Houston this year (24:13 to 23:47) and he had 6 offensive rebounds, many in key sequences. And 12 points on 7 shots.We need depth, Lindsey killed any depth possibility we have without waiving Favors and Favors should''t be with Gobert anyway. We could get like 3 players that are just as impactful when it counts as Favors if we waive him.
Favors is depth. I wanna see how he does next to a point guard who has a jumper, and who can run the pick and roll. He's played well next to Gobert under those conditions. Rubio's departure and Conley's arrival makes Favors much more interesting to me.
about what depth You are talking about, we dont have good starting pf and thats it, plus about Mike jr i remember this talk about Ricki when he was coming here, how he will push ball to our bigs etc. lets be honest things wont change, we have two good quality centers and non of them can play on 4 spot, Conley wont change that despite he is good shooter
When I say depth I mean the entire team with the bench also.
This is litterally the team assuming all the non guaranteed contracts are exercised and second round picks are signed since all our cap holds else are automatically waived with the Conley trade:
Conley/Exum/Neto
Mitchell/Oni/Wright-Foreman
Ingles/O'Neale
Favors/Niang/Brantly
Gobert/Bradley
Thats pure dog crap, especially considering as you said we need a starting capable PF at some point. All we will have to fill the rest of the bench is with the 4.7 exception and minimums when we are competing with teams like the Lakers, Sixers, Spurs, Rockets, Clippers, ect ... for those guys. We got lucky that we were one of the most experienced and stable teams in the west last year ... that may not be the case this year and that bench is gonna get murdered.
BRING JAMAAL FRANKLIN TO UTAH!!!!!
Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
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Re: Sap/Jabari vs Fav
Depth is added by any player worthy of minutes. Favors is worthy of 28 minutes in an 8 man rotation. That's the depth he is contributing. Is not easy to replace that with our exceptions or with cap space if you waive him. I think he's clearly the best player available not named Tobias. So I don't think you go deeper by swapping Favors our for lesser players just because you don't like seeing someone play 2 positions. That has nothing to do with depth, which Favors gives you 28 high quality minutes of.
Not to mention, perhaps our largest injury risk is our best player, Rudy Gobert, who Favors provides some insurance for, while also giving you depth at the 4 position. I just don't understand this claim about Favors and depth.
You gotta think in terms of minutes:
Conley (32) /Exum (16) / Wright-Foreman
Mitchell (34) /O'Neale (14)
Ingles (32) /O'Neale (16) / Oni
Favors (12) / EXCEPTION (30) / Niang (6) /Brantly
Gobert (32) / Favors (16) / Bradley
Carrol or Ariza would look nice at 30ish minutes a night in that rotation. Could use more insurance at point guard (hope we can bring back Neto), and another shooting wing might be nice.
Not to mention, perhaps our largest injury risk is our best player, Rudy Gobert, who Favors provides some insurance for, while also giving you depth at the 4 position. I just don't understand this claim about Favors and depth.
You gotta think in terms of minutes:
Conley (32) /Exum (16) / Wright-Foreman
Mitchell (34) /O'Neale (14)
Ingles (32) /O'Neale (16) / Oni
Favors (12) / EXCEPTION (30) / Niang (6) /Brantly
Gobert (32) / Favors (16) / Bradley
Carrol or Ariza would look nice at 30ish minutes a night in that rotation. Could use more insurance at point guard (hope we can bring back Neto), and another shooting wing might be nice.
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.