Minutes Rotation

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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#41 » by stitches » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:56 pm

KqWIN wrote:I just don't think Bojan is as good as we think he is, and I believe in Royce's development.

Yeah... if he's not very good in his first year, having him on the books for 4 years at 18M a year until his mid-30s would definitely be disastrous.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#42 » by KqWIN » Mon Jul 8, 2019 7:06 pm

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:I just don't think Bojan is as good as we think he is, and I believe in Royce's development.

Yeah... if he's not very good in his first year, having him on the books for 4 years at 18M a year until his mid-30s would definitely be disastrous.


It's definitely possible that this contract turns into a disaster. I think the fit is fine, more than fine on offense...he's just not that great of a player on his own in my opinion. I think he's closer to Royce than he is to Ingles. Having a third scorer is important, but if Mitchell really takes a step, it might be more valuable to add in Royce's defense and rebounding...especially if Royce improves his shooting.

I see Bojan as more of sixth man scoring sparkplug than a starter that should be on the floor as much as possible. If we were to compare this to the Clippers situation, Bojan would be our Lou, and Royce would be our Beverley. Lou is amazing, but when it comes down to it Beverley is probably the more indispensable player next to PG and Kawhi. It's a similar feeling to D-Lo vs Igoudala with the Warriors as well.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#43 » by babyjax13 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 7:22 pm

I'm here for Royce starting at power forward, of all our forwards, he is the best rebounder and the heaviest.

To start the season
Gobert 32/Davis 16
O'neale 18/Green 20/Niang 10
Bogdanovic 32/Ingles 16
Mitchell 26/Ingles 10/Exum 12
Conley 32/Mitchell 8/Mudiay 8

If Dante is healthy I see Niang getting squeezed out and shifting some of either Ingles or Bogdanovic's minutes to PF.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#44 » by babyjax13 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 7:24 pm

KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:I just don't think Bojan is as good as we think he is, and I believe in Royce's development.

Yeah... if he's not very good in his first year, having him on the books for 4 years at 18M a year until his mid-30s would definitely be disastrous.


It's definitely possible that this contract turns into a disaster. I think the fit is fine, more than fine on offense...he's just not that great of a player on his own in my opinion. I think he's closer to Royce than he is to Ingles. Having a third scorer is important, but if Mitchell really takes a step, it might be more valuable to add in Royce's defense and rebounding...especially if Royce improves his shooting.

I see Bojan as more of sixth man scoring sparkplug than a starter that should be on the floor as much as possible. If we were to compare this to the Clippers situation, Bojan would be our Lou, and Royce would be our Beverley. Lou is amazing, but when it comes down to it Beverley is probably the more indispensable player next to PG and Kawhi. It's a similar feeling to D-Lo vs Igoudala with the Warriors as well.


I think these comparisons are different that Beverley being 'better' than Lou, or Royce being 'better' than Bojan. If Bojan is as impactful as Lou (which I think is likely) he is worth his contract. If Royce is as impactful as Beverley, he's in for a nice raise.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#45 » by KqWIN » Mon Jul 8, 2019 7:36 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:Yeah... if he's not very good in his first year, having him on the books for 4 years at 18M a year until his mid-30s would definitely be disastrous.


It's definitely possible that this contract turns into a disaster. I think the fit is fine, more than fine on offense...he's just not that great of a player on his own in my opinion. I think he's closer to Royce than he is to Ingles. Having a third scorer is important, but if Mitchell really takes a step, it might be more valuable to add in Royce's defense and rebounding...especially if Royce improves his shooting.

I see Bojan as more of sixth man scoring sparkplug than a starter that should be on the floor as much as possible. If we were to compare this to the Clippers situation, Bojan would be our Lou, and Royce would be our Beverley. Lou is amazing, but when it comes down to it Beverley is probably the more indispensable player next to PG and Kawhi. It's a similar feeling to D-Lo vs Igoudala with the Warriors as well.


I think these comparisons are different that Beverley being 'better' than Lou, or Royce being 'better' than Bojan. If Bojan is as impactful as Lou (which I think is likely) he is worth his contract. If Royce is as impactful as Beverley, he's in for a nice raise.


I think there's a good chance Royce is both better and more useful than Bojan.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#46 » by babyjax13 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 7:43 pm

KqWIN wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
It's definitely possible that this contract turns into a disaster. I think the fit is fine, more than fine on offense...he's just not that great of a player on his own in my opinion. I think he's closer to Royce than he is to Ingles. Having a third scorer is important, but if Mitchell really takes a step, it might be more valuable to add in Royce's defense and rebounding...especially if Royce improves his shooting.

I see Bojan as more of sixth man scoring sparkplug than a starter that should be on the floor as much as possible. If we were to compare this to the Clippers situation, Bojan would be our Lou, and Royce would be our Beverley. Lou is amazing, but when it comes down to it Beverley is probably the more indispensable player next to PG and Kawhi. It's a similar feeling to D-Lo vs Igoudala with the Warriors as well.


I think these comparisons are different that Beverley being 'better' than Lou, or Royce being 'better' than Bojan. If Bojan is as impactful as Lou (which I think is likely) he is worth his contract. If Royce is as impactful as Beverley, he's in for a nice raise.


I think there's a good chance Royce is both better and more useful than Bojan.


Bojan just dragged a team to the playoffs while averaging 22ppg without Oladipo. If you replace him with Royce, Indiana doesn't have a shot of making it.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#47 » by KqWIN » Mon Jul 8, 2019 8:19 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
I think these comparisons are different that Beverley being 'better' than Lou, or Royce being 'better' than Bojan. If Bojan is as impactful as Lou (which I think is likely) he is worth his contract. If Royce is as impactful as Beverley, he's in for a nice raise.


I think there's a good chance Royce is both better and more useful than Bojan.


Bojan just dragged a team to the playoffs while averaging 22ppg without Oladipo. If you replace him with Royce, Indiana doesn't have a shot of making it.


I don't think it's appropriate to say he dragged a team to the playoffs. They were .500 in the east without Oladipo, and it's their defense that got them there, not their offense. It's like those people who say Mitchell is carrying the Jazz.

The context goes both ways as well. On a team without scoring, a scorer like Bojan has a lot of value. It's the same as a non-scorer having a lot of value on a team with scorers.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#48 » by Inigo Montoya » Mon Jul 8, 2019 8:21 pm

Bojan is a good player, but giving him a 4 year contract at the age of 30 was a bad move. He does fit, but I wouldn't have moved on from Favors for him, even though I recognize Favors' awkward fit. The one we should have gone after was Portis, imho. It would have made more sense. He's a much better rebounder than Bojan, bigger, longer, more athletic, can shoot the 3 (not as well as Bojan, granted) and he's only 24, who up until now had to play for dysfunctional franchises in the Bulls and the Wizards.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#49 » by sipclip » Mon Jul 8, 2019 8:36 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Bojan is a good player, but giving him a 4 year contract at the age of 30 was a bad move. He does fit, but I wouldn't have moved on from Favors for him, even though I recognize Favors' awkward fit. The one we should have gone after was Portis, imho. It would have made more sense. He's a much better rebounder than Bojan, bigger, longer, more athletic, can shoot the 3 (not as well as Bojan, granted) and he's only 24, who up until now had to play for dysfunctional franchises in the Bulls and the Wizards.


I'm always concerned about players at that age coming off a career year when they are forced to take extra shots. Hopefully this doesn't turn into Peja who dropped off really quick once he hit 30.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#50 » by dr0welf » Tue Jul 9, 2019 2:03 am

Indiana had a great defense and Brogs was part of that. Him being the main guy on the team after the Oladipo injury caused Brogs to learn to create space and get to the rim. One of the Indiana broadcasters mentioned that when he got to Indiana he couldn't create his own shot. Now he is comfortable taking the ball to the rim. I don't think he's anything close to DM in getting passed his man, but it is enough to keep defenses honest with him. I would love to take the time to dig into his analytics over the last couple years just to see if the numbers show what the broadcaster was discussing. That being said If he can hit +50% from the corner three he will be worth every penny he gets. I'm just excited to see the season start.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#51 » by Tom349 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 7:08 am

KqWIN wrote:I think it's somewhat likely that by the end of the year, the consensus will be that Royce is a better player than Bojan and he'll be the one closing games.


Of course its possible. Royce is one of the premier defenders amongst guards/small forwards in the league and provided he can continue to improve his shooting then he will always be an option to close games dependant on the context of the game, i.e. the need for scoring/shooting or lockdown defense. If Royce turns himself into a 40% three point shooter on a reasonable volume whilst remaining the defender he is then that speaks more to the player Royce has developed into than it does for the player Bojan is. Which on the basis that happens then we should be celebrating our depth and the luxury we have of being able to consider Bojan as our 'sixth piece' rather than looking at it as if we made a mistake in signing him to his deal. Likewise Dante could go past both of them and we are left with Bojan and Royce fighting for a place on the court when it matters.

This is more directed to the replies to your question but I don't think its necessary to compare our players and their worth when they each provide us something different and sure we might be getting a great return for 1.4m a year from Royce and Bojan at 17m might end up being a slight overpay as long as collectively they give the team what it needs to the rest isn't irrelevant. I mean the question you proposed was fine and worthy of discussion but it quickly become about paying a 30 year old with little mileage 17m a season for 4 years and that Bobby Portis would have been a better option despite being far less likely to be playing down the stretch as a 4 than what Bojan is.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#52 » by KqWIN » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:29 am

Here's another random thought about rotations. A lot of us have defaulted to Ingles running the second unit and potentially coming off the bench. He was terrific last year in the second unit with Favs and shooting around them, but Favs isn't here anymore. If anyone is going to lead that unit besides Mitchell/Conley, it would make more sense for Bojan to be the top scorer. He proved last year that he can scale up his usage and still be efficient. Might as well use it and have him be the main guy in bench units.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#53 » by stitches » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:25 am

KqWIN wrote:Here's another random thought about rotations. A lot of us have defaulted to Ingles running the second unit and potentially coming off the bench. He was terrific last year in the second unit with Favs and shooting around them, but Favs isn't here anymore. If anyone is going to lead that unit besides Mitchell/Conley, it would make more sense for Bojan to be the top scorer. He proved last year that he can scale up his usage and still be efficient. Might as well use it and have him be the main guy in bench units.

The reality is... we added at least 2 more capable ballhandlers to this roster and Dante is supposed to come back so that would be 3 more. So we now might have up to ... what? 5? From last year's 3... the combinations Quin will be able to test and assemble is just so much more expansive now. He can actually afford to have.... MULTIPLE (as in ... more than one) at the same time on the floor at all times... that must be a shock to the system for him. It is just ridiculous what he managed to do with this roster offensively last year. How can you have a single shot creator and 3 reliable ballhandlers on the whole roster for the full season and still manage to field an average offense? I don't want to go wild but if we stay relatively healthy IMO having top 5 defense and top 10 offense is not out of the question this year.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#54 » by KqWIN » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:45 am

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Here's another random thought about rotations. A lot of us have defaulted to Ingles running the second unit and potentially coming off the bench. He was terrific last year in the second unit with Favs and shooting around them, but Favs isn't here anymore. If anyone is going to lead that unit besides Mitchell/Conley, it would make more sense for Bojan to be the top scorer. He proved last year that he can scale up his usage and still be efficient. Might as well use it and have him be the main guy in bench units.

The reality is... we added at least 2 more capable ballhandlers to this roster and Dante is supposed to come back so that would be 3 more. So we now might have up to ... what? 5? From last year's 3... the combinations Quin will be able to test and assemble is just so much more expansive now. He can actually afford to have.... MULTIPLE (as in ... more than one) at the same time on the floor at all times... that must be a shock to the system for him. It is just ridiculous what he managed to do with this roster offensively last year. How can you have a single shot creator and 3 reliable ballhandlers on the whole roster for the full season and still manage to field an average offense? I don't want to go wild but if we stay relatively healthy IMO having top 5 defense and top 10 offense is not out of the question this year.


I'm trying to stay somewhat grounded with expectations, but I think a top 10 offense is actually conservative. That should be the bare minimum based on the moves we made. The starters + Jae were terrific on offense last season, and we just got serious talent upgrades on the two weakest spots which should make life so much easier for Mitchell and Gobert.

The only concern is if our bench unit drags down the offense. I don't know what that second rotation is going to be, but I think Quin should be able to find something that works. Speaking of Exum, am I crazy to think that we should just put shooters around him, let him drive every time and let Davis rebound his layup misses? Even when Exum is bad, he still gets to the rim at will.

Maybe instead of Ingles-Favors we rekindle the OG pairing that always had synergy, Exum-Gobert.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#55 » by stitches » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:57 am

KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Here's another random thought about rotations. A lot of us have defaulted to Ingles running the second unit and potentially coming off the bench. He was terrific last year in the second unit with Favs and shooting around them, but Favs isn't here anymore. If anyone is going to lead that unit besides Mitchell/Conley, it would make more sense for Bojan to be the top scorer. He proved last year that he can scale up his usage and still be efficient. Might as well use it and have him be the main guy in bench units.

The reality is... we added at least 2 more capable ballhandlers to this roster and Dante is supposed to come back so that would be 3 more. So we now might have up to ... what? 5? From last year's 3... the combinations Quin will be able to test and assemble is just so much more expansive now. He can actually afford to have.... MULTIPLE (as in ... more than one) at the same time on the floor at all times... that must be a shock to the system for him. It is just ridiculous what he managed to do with this roster offensively last year. How can you have a single shot creator and 3 reliable ballhandlers on the whole roster for the full season and still manage to field an average offense? I don't want to go wild but if we stay relatively healthy IMO having top 5 defense and top 10 offense is not out of the question this year.


I'm trying to stay somewhat grounded with expectations, but I think a top 10 offense is actually conservative. That should be the bare minimum based on the moves we made. The starters + Jae were terrific on offense last season, and we just got serious talent upgrades on the two weakest spots which should make life so much easier for Mitchell and Gobert.

The only concern is if our bench unit drags down the offense. I don't know what that second rotation is going to be, but I think Quin should be able to find something that works. Speaking of Exum, am I crazy to think that we should just put shooters around him, let him drive every time and let Davis rebound his layup misses? Even when Exum is bad, he still gets to the rim at will.

Maybe instead of Ingles-Favors we rekindle the OG pairing that always had synergy, Exum-Gobert.


Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. Exum continues to be our best lob thrower on the roster. Also... I wonder how Conley is with his lobs. He hadn't had many lob-threats play with him over his career. Gasol and Randolph are not exactly above the rim athletes. Conley is theoretically a great fit but it's weird how many new things he will experience for a player with 12 years of experience in the league. He's never had a lob-threat like Gobert. He's never had a dynamic scorer like Donovan in his backcourt. He's never had a wing who can handle the ball and shoot like both Ingles and Bojan... I wonder if this would enhance his game or subdue it.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#56 » by KqWIN » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:18 am

stitches wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. Exum continues to be our best lob thrower on the roster. Also... I wonder how Conley is with his lobs. He hadn't had many lob-threats play with him over his career. Gasol and Randolph are not exactly above the rim athletes. Conley is theoretically a great fit but it's weird how many new things he will experience for a player with 12 years of experience in the league. He's never had a lob-threat like Gobert. He's never had a dynamic scorer like Donovan in his backcourt. He's never had a wing who can handle the ball and shoot like both Ingles and Bojan... I wonder if this would enhance his game or subdue it.


Imagine Exum-Ingles-Bojan-Niang-Gobert against bench units. How are they going to stop that?

I'm very intrigued on how this Conley thing is going to work out. In theory, he's perfect, but it's almost too good to be true. I have to see it play out. I think both Conley and Mitchell might have to raise their standard of shot selection because they are so used to having to take tough shots and carrying a large load. Could be a learning curve on how they split the offensive burden between themselves and the other ball handlers.

I wonder if we end up staggering them.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#57 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:57 am

KqWIN wrote:The only concern is if our bench unit drags down the offense. I don't know what that second rotation is going to be, but I think Quin should be able to find something that works. Speaking of Exum, am I crazy to think that we should just put shooters around him, let him drive every time and let Davis rebound his layup misses? Even when Exum is bad, he still gets to the rim at will.


This is how Exum should have been utilized all along. Making him stand in the corner and\or shoot 3s is\was a waste of his strengths and the things that got him drafted at #5 in the first place.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#58 » by Tom349 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:17 pm

KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. Exum continues to be our best lob thrower on the roster. Also... I wonder how Conley is with his lobs. He hadn't had many lob-threats play with him over his career. Gasol and Randolph are not exactly above the rim athletes. Conley is theoretically a great fit but it's weird how many new things he will experience for a player with 12 years of experience in the league. He's never had a lob-threat like Gobert. He's never had a dynamic scorer like Donovan in his backcourt. He's never had a wing who can handle the ball and shoot like both Ingles and Bojan... I wonder if this would enhance his game or subdue it.


Imagine Exum-Ingles-Bojan-Niang-Gobert against bench units. How are they going to stop that?

I'm very intrigued on how this Conley thing is going to work out. In theory, he's perfect, but it's almost too good to be true. I have to see it play out. I think both Conley and Mitchell might have to raise their standard of shot selection because they are so used to having to take tough shots and carrying a large load. Could be a learning curve on how they split the offensive burden between themselves and the other ball handlers.

I wonder if we end up staggering them.


Virtually unstoppable, question is how many minutes a game would this unit play? Also what is the trade off of having Gobert with this unit and Davis spending more minutes with Conley/Mitchell. I mean we know Davis can definitely rebound but can he set good enough picks for Conley and Mitchell to thrive? Can he defend well enough to make up for Gobert feasting on second units.

As for Conley Im also intrigued at how he goes given who he has played alongside previously but post Gasol and with more of a rim roller in JVC, he put up the best numbers of his career although not a great sample size to go off and Gobert and JVC have vastly different skill sets.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#59 » by Rauxcee » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:33 pm

Kind of feel like we need to have 2 of Mutchell, Conley, Ingles, Bojan on the floor at all times offensively. Unless Exum is healthy and is really showing something.
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Re: Minutes Rotation 

Post#60 » by KqWIN » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:17 pm

Tom349 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
stitches wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. Exum continues to be our best lob thrower on the roster. Also... I wonder how Conley is with his lobs. He hadn't had many lob-threats play with him over his career. Gasol and Randolph are not exactly above the rim athletes. Conley is theoretically a great fit but it's weird how many new things he will experience for a player with 12 years of experience in the league. He's never had a lob-threat like Gobert. He's never had a dynamic scorer like Donovan in his backcourt. He's never had a wing who can handle the ball and shoot like both Ingles and Bojan... I wonder if this would enhance his game or subdue it.


Imagine Exum-Ingles-Bojan-Niang-Gobert against bench units. How are they going to stop that?

I'm very intrigued on how this Conley thing is going to work out. In theory, he's perfect, but it's almost too good to be true. I have to see it play out. I think both Conley and Mitchell might have to raise their standard of shot selection because they are so used to having to take tough shots and carrying a large load. Could be a learning curve on how they split the offensive burden between themselves and the other ball handlers.

I wonder if we end up staggering them.


Virtually unstoppable, question is how many minutes a game would this unit play? Also what is the trade off of having Gobert with this unit and Davis spending more minutes with Conley/Mitchell. I mean we know Davis can definitely rebound but can he set good enough picks for Conley and Mitchell to thrive? Can he defend well enough to make up for Gobert feasting on second units.

As for Conley Im also intrigued at how he goes given who he has played alongside previously but post Gasol and with more of a rim roller in JVC, he put up the best numbers of his career although not a great sample size to go off and Gobert and JVC have vastly different skill sets.


I don't know if you'd call it a trade off, but you would have to switch up Gobert's rotation. He's typically played in two stints of 7-9 minutes. To line up with Exum he'd have to play three stints of 5-6 minutes. Lots of star players do this, it might be as simple as just doing it...but I can see how the more frequent subs can negatively effect rhythm. For the bench player it's hard to get going in two 3-4 minute stints per half, but I actually kinda like Davis playing in short stints as a hustle big.

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