How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders?

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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#141 » by vryadli » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:54 am

Daddy 801 wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
Daddy 801 wrote:The rebuild (if not successful in next two years) would really depend on what Gobert wants to do, what level he is playing at in two years, and what type of contract he wants. He is probably in his prime the next 2-4 years. Big men peak earlier and he relies on his athleticism. The time is now or never IMO with Gobert. And he might be gone in a year from now....which sucks to think. But I believe his contract is up at the end of this year.

If they blow it up in 1-2 years they can have a ton of capspace before signing Donovan to his max.


The problem is that as long as they have DM and Gobert they will never blow it up. They will ride these two players for as long as they can into another 5 years of playoff purgatory with no shot at contention. And worse, with DM's max and Gobert's supermax they won't have the cap space to make the team better.


If they can’t at least make it to the WCFs and have a competitive series they should not sign Rudy to a Supermax. They should trade him and get assets to build around Donovan. That’s why I think it’s this year or sorta bust. Maybe sign Rudy to a contract and then trade him.


Sorry which level of skills and IQ you assign to DM to be a center of buildin a contender? Evidently Kobe or A. Davis or Garnett level is not enough for small market team... He is on par with Curry, Dunkan or Greek level, right?
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#142 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:21 pm

I don't think the Rockets got worse from the CP3-Westbrook swap. They're still very dangerous, I think. Also:

Read on Twitter


Presti is killing it. And he'll probably going to flip CP3 and Galo for more assets.

I get these questions in the vein of "would you rather blow it all up instead of re-signing a top 20 player or building around the 2nd best duo in franchise history?" Well, Presti did just that. He recognized what he has isn't good enough for a championship, and instead of riding this core for the next 4-5 seasons and making the playoffs, he traded two top-20 players, and the 2nd best duo in Thunder franchise history, one of them an MVP and DPOY candidate (PG13). When it's all said and done, he'll probably trade another top 20\ top 30 player in CP3 too.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#143 » by Crunch 99 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 pm

Harden and Westbrook might be a better matchup for us, but with CP3's game starting to fall off a bit, that conclusion is far from certain. Harden and Westbrook spent a lot of years working together as teammates before, so while the pairing doesn't sound ideal, they might make it work a lot better than people think.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#144 » by Winglish » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:39 pm

Harden and Westbrook are DANGEROUS! That's two consecutive MVP's in the same backcourt.

Theirs is better than ours.

Rudy? Capela gives him fits.

I still think Houston is a problem.

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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#145 » by TO11 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:54 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:I don't think the Rockets got worse from the CP3-Westbrook swap. They're still very dangerous, I think. Also:

Read on Twitter


Presti is killing it. And he'll probably going to flip CP3 and Galo for more assets.

I get these questions in the vein of "would you rather blow it all up instead of re-signing a top 20 player or building around the 2nd best duo in franchise history?" Well, Presti did just that. He recognized what he has isn't good enough for a championship, and instead of riding this core for the next 4-5 seasons and making the playoffs, he traded two top-20 players, and the 2nd best duo in Thunder franchise history, one of them an MVP and DPOY candidate (PG13). When it's all said and done, he'll probably trade another top 20\ top 30 player in CP3 too.

Ummm I hate to break this to you but presti was going to run that **** back again this year. It wasn’t until PG demanded a trade that he realized he had to blow it up...


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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#146 » by TO11 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:03 pm

TO11 wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:I don't think the Rockets got worse from the CP3-Westbrook swap. They're still very dangerous, I think. Also:

Read on Twitter


Presti is killing it. And he'll probably going to flip CP3 and Galo for more assets.

I get these questions in the vein of "would you rather blow it all up instead of re-signing a top 20 player or building around the 2nd best duo in franchise history?" Well, Presti did just that. He recognized what he has isn't good enough for a championship, and instead of riding this core for the next 4-5 seasons and making the playoffs, he traded two top-20 players, and the 2nd best duo in Thunder franchise history, one of them an MVP and DPOY candidate (PG13). When it's all said and done, he'll probably trade another top 20\ top 30 player in CP3 too.

Ummm I hate to break this to you but presti was going to run that **** back again this year. It wasn’t until PG demanded a trade that he realized he had to blow it up...


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I’m sorry that kind of rude...I guess I get a little exhausted with the Presti praise because I feel like he has made some questionable decisions..


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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#147 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:04 pm

TO11 wrote:Ummm I hate to break this to you but presti was going to run that **** back again this year. It wasn’t until PG demanded a trade that he realized he had to blow it up...


And Presti could have said to PG13 that he's under contract and he's not going to be traded, and then run it back again this year for another playoff appearance. The seed was planted in everyone's mind once's they failed to move past the first round twice in a row. Once might be a fluke, twice is too much. I think everyone were ready to move on because they realized they're not a championship contender.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#148 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:06 pm

TO11 wrote:I’m sorry that kind of rude...I guess I get a little exhausted with the Presti praise because I feel like he has made some questionable decisions..


No worries.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#149 » by vryadli » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:41 pm

Tom349 wrote:I must be the only one who rates even current version of Paul higher than current version of Westbrook. He might have taken a step back this past season but he is still one of the best, if not the best defender at PG and a much better fit than Westbrook next to Harden. Hopefully he ends up on an Eastern conference team.


No, you not the only one. I'm pretty sure that for Rockets WB prove to be less W-valuable than Paul. May be less often injured though.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#150 » by ForeverRDjazz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:51 pm

Really the Rockets didn't have anything else they could do as far as trade value, they had to move Paul and that horrible contract and i'm sure there was many teams wanting to take out CP3 diva and that huge contract with his age. Really came down to picks for OKC and like someone said, Knowing OKC was championship team after trying two years and bet in first round. Trade is good for both teams I think. Think Rockets will be top 4 but I also like our chances of finally being able to beat them.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#151 » by JazzyPhinz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:56 pm

I like our chances against this new Rockets team. We give up the mid range and CP3 killed us there.
Westy is not an off ball guy so not sure how their new offense is that scary.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#152 » by stitches » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:14 pm

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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#153 » by zero24gravity » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:51 pm

I had an odd reaction to the Westbrook trade, because I heard the news and pretty much just went "meh", and moved on. (Unlike the Paul George trade, where I thought about how it hurt the Jazz's chances and making the big push this year.)

Is Westbrook a better player than Chris Paul? Yes, I don't even think it's close at this point in their careers. But the fit is just way off. Feels like a desperation move, and better for PR than on the court. There shouldn't be a minute that one of them isn't on the court, which means no "breaks" for anyone against them, but they are both guys who simply don't rest much. There's probably only about 15-18 minutes a game where you'll only have one of them on the court without the other. The other 30ish minutes, they both need the ball to be effective. Harden is the worlds best one on one player, and Westbrook is of near ZERO value as an off the ball shooter. Harden is a very good shooter, but is he really going to let Westbrook dominate the ball and turn into a catch & shoot player? (The answer is no.) This pairing is far more scary on paper, than in reality, IMO. I'm in agreement with those who say this doesn't make them better, and may even make them worse. Not due to downgrading talent (because Westbrook is a helluva player), but because they aren't the right guys to play with each other.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#154 » by ForeverRDjazz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 pm

ForeverRDjazz wrote:Really the Rockets didn't have anything else they could do as far as trade value, they had to move Paul and that horrible contract and i'm sure there was many teams wanting to take out CP3 diva and that huge contract with his age. Really came down to picks for OKC and like someone said, Knowing OKC was championship team after trying two years and being beat in the first round. Trade is good for both teams I think. Think Rockets will be top 4 but I also like our chances of finally being able to beat them.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#155 » by zero24gravity » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:42 pm

zero24gravity wrote:I had an odd reaction to the Westbrook trade, because I heard the news and pretty much just went "meh", and moved on. (Unlike the Paul George trade, where I thought about how it hurt the Jazz's chances and making the big push this year.)

Is Westbrook a better player than Chris Paul? Yes, I don't even think it's close at this point in their careers. But the fit is just way off. Feels like a desperation move, and better for PR than on the court. There shouldn't be a minute that one of them isn't on the court, which means no "breaks" for anyone against them, but they are both guys who simply don't rest much. There's probably only about 15-18 minutes a game where you'll only have one of them on the court without the other. The other 30ish minutes, they both need the ball to be effective. Harden is the worlds best one on one player, and Westbrook is of near ZERO value as an off the ball shooter. Harden is a very good shooter, but is he really going to let Westbrook dominate the ball and turn into a catch & shoot player? (The answer is no.) This pairing is far more scary on paper, than in reality, IMO. I'm in agreement with those who say this doesn't make them better, and may even make them worse. Not due to downgrading talent (because Westbrook is a helluva player), but because they aren't the right guys to play with each other.


Responding to my own post .....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/russell-westbrook-trade-grades-rockets-take-huge-gamble-thunder-lay-foundation-for-rebuild/ar-AAEek7d?OCID=DELLDHP


"While Westbrook is terrible on above-the-break 3-pointers (27.9 percent) in 2018-19, he actually was respectable from the corners (37.2 percent). He only took 51 total shots from the corners, though, and 359 above the break. That number needs to dip way down. Those crazy pull-ups with 20 seconds on the shot clock? Please stop.

There's also the issue of whether Westbrook can cede the floor to Harden, and vice versa. They are both at their best with the ball. We're talking about two guards with the highest single-season usage percentages in NBA history.

Harden will have to be a spot-up threat when Westbrook is initiating the offense. Harden only attempted 70 catch-and-shoot 3-pointers last season, but he did hit on 41.1 percent of them. (Westbrook was just under 32 percent on 166 such attempts.) At some point, these guys must throw in off-ball movement and cutting. They can't treat every trip down to the wing or corner as a personal timeout."
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#156 » by Rauxcee » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:53 pm

I'm about as scared of Westbrook and Harden, as I was of prime Melo and Iverson. You can have great individual players, but if the fit is off it's less than the sum of its parts.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#157 » by tleikheen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:42 pm

Talent wins in the NBA and always has Harden /Westbrook = 59 ppg ……. 17 rpg ………… 17 apg in a Mike D'Antoni offense will be an extremely dangerous offense .Their offense will be going downhill all game long and if other teams can't put points up and match the high powered offense of Houston will get rolled over on. Westbrook isn't going to be a big hole on defense where they play a switching defense and are the best at it .
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#158 » by sipclip » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:05 am

I can't wait for the season to start so we can see how all these moves look in real life. Personally I think Westbrook and Harden are going to be pretty devastating offensively but the ball dominance of both players is a real concern.

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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#159 » by Catchall » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:00 am

stitches wrote:
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Well, giving the Jazz the same odds as Denver and Golden State isn't meant as an insult, though the Jazz are better than both those teams, imo.
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Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#160 » by stitches » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:18 pm

We enter the ESPN power rankings at no. 9 in the league and no. 6 in the West:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27189056/league-best-teams-now

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