Jazz are 3 years too late on smallball,now it's about length and athleticism

tleikheen · Post #1 » by **tleikheen** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:19 am

So many blowouts last year and you heard about the Jazz lack of team athleticism . It's real and I appreciate that the Jazz tried to get better offensively and go after offensive players but the players they got were system players and were not known for creating and getting their own baskets ,one on one. Add up Conley,Mitchell,Ingles,Bogdanovic and they scare no team defensively despite Gobert at the Center position.
Jazz have done what they always do in the Snyder era ,they went after the experienced unathletic players again and that Gobert has to be super human to cover up for their lack of defense. Plug them in …... Diaw ,JJ ,Mack ,now Bogdanovic and Conley. The league gets faster ,longer and more athletic and the Jazz are just now catching up with the smallball era that's now giving way to the teams with length and athleticism that are now the rage.

Post #2 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:38 am

Conley isn't considered to be athletic or long but he is still a good defender. Rubio wasn't that athletic either but he too was a good defender. If our players could stay in front of their man on defense, Gobert's life will be easier.

Rauxcee · Post #3 » by **Rauxcee** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:44 pm

Length and athleticism does not automatically equal good defense. Those are not mutually exclusive.

You can have all the length and athleticism in the world, but if the players can't make jump shots and shoot from 3 you aren't going anywhere. OKC for example.

KqWIN · Post #4 » by **KqWIN** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:44 pm

I’m actually not sure if we’re any less athletic than last year. Besides Favors (when healthy), everyone who is gone is a bad athlete. Rubio, Crowder, Korver aren’t the poster boys for size and length. We’re smaller, hard to say we’re less athletic.

This idea that we have to play one way is pretty silly in the first place. We didn’t go to small ball because that’s where the league was going. We got shooters and skilled players because we had one guy who could create his own shot and a team around him who couldn’t make a shot to save their life in the playoffs.

Size and athleticism doesn’t mean a damn thing if everyone can be left wide open and you on shoot 20%. The defense was good. It has been good for years. It was time to improve the offense.

sipclip · Post #5 » by **sipclip** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:48 pm

Management has screwed up for years giving up assets for short term solutions and unfortunately this trend continued this offseason. Not only giving up assets but getting back players whose prime doesn't fit with Rudy and Mitchell. All that to likely be the 5th to 8th seed in the west.

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KqWIN · Post #6 » by **KqWIN** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:04 pm

I actually think this was the perfect window to do something. We paid a high price for Conley, but this two year window is likely the best chance the Jazz will have to win a championship in a very long time. Decades maybe. Gobert+Mitchell for the price of one max contract is not something you can take advantage.

The NBA breathes on hope. It’s completely acceptable to be bad in the meantime for the hope, not guarantee, of something good in the future. However, the hope of something good in the present at the cost of the future is not met with the same acceptance. Hard core fans seem to prefer the former, casual fans the latter.

At the end of the day, we’re probably not going to win a championship anyways.

babyjax13 · Post #7 » by **babyjax13** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:45 pm

Everyone but Bojan expires the same year, and his contract is pretty decent for what he is capable of doing. If this two year stretch doesn't work out (I think we will be very, very good) we will be able to retool around Mitchell and Gobert - probably with a third max player.

Catchall · Post #8 » by **Catchall** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:11 pm

It's never really been about small ball. The utopian dream is to put 5 players on the floor who are all skilled two-way players (offense/defense) and triple-threat players (pass/drive/shoot).

The Warriors were nearly impossible to guard, in part because Curry & Klay space the floor out to 30 feet, but also because they can put 5 guys on the floor who can all pass, dribble and shoot. Guys no longer have traditional roles, since their skill sets enable them to do a bit of everything, and they can each break the defense. The Warriors led the league in scoring right at the rim because of their ability to break down defenses. The Rockets then tried to match the Warriors, but their players weren't quite as versatile.

The Jazz are fine in terms of their size. Rudy is 7'1" and athletic. Jeff Green is 6'9" and athletic enough to guard big wings and forwards. Bojan and Ingles are both 6'8" and adequate defenders. Mitchell can guard guys up to 6'6" or 6'7". Conley is small and light by today's standards, but he's quick and skilled enough to compensate for the most part. Remember, the Raptors were fine defensively with Lowry and VanVleet.

Yeah, it would be nice to put another 7-footer on the floor next to Rudy. I'm concerned about our defensive rebounding. However, that guy would have to be a truly skilled triple-threat player, like a Lauri Markkanen or Domantas Sabonis, and not just another Derrick Favors.

sipclip · Post #9 » by **sipclip** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:26 am

KqWIN wrote:I actually think this was the perfect window to do something. We paid a high price for Conley, but this two year window is likely the best chance the Jazz will have to win a championship in a very long time. Decades maybe. Gobert+Mitchell for the price of one max contract is not something you can take advantage.

The NBA breathes on hope. It’s completely acceptable to be bad in the meantime for the hope, not guarantee, of something good in the future. However, the hope of something good in the present at the cost of the future is not met with the same acceptance. Hard core fans seem to prefer the former, casual fans the latter.

At the end of the day, we’re probably not going to win a championship anyways.

Hopefully you are right with drinking that jazz management kool aid. Personally I don't think this roster is even close to being a championship team and constantly wasting draft picks had to led a complete cap of our upside. I would sure feel a hell of a lot different about this team if we had Anfernee Simons and Darius Bazley waiting in the wings to help support Mitchell and Gobert in the very near future. In the meantime we could have supplemented their growth with guys like Julius Randle or Bobby Portis and Jeremy Lamb and maybe even Brogdon who I would have been willing to give up a future 1st for.

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KqWIN · Post #10 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:42 am

sipclip wrote:
KqWIN wrote:I actually think this was the perfect window to do something. We paid a high price for Conley, but this two year window is likely the best chance the Jazz will have to win a championship in a very long time. Decades maybe. Gobert+Mitchell for the price of one max contract is not something you can take advantage.

The NBA breathes on hope. It’s completely acceptable to be bad in the meantime for the hope, not guarantee, of something good in the future. However, the hope of something good in the present at the cost of the future is not met with the same acceptance. Hard core fans seem to prefer the former, casual fans the latter.

At the end of the day, we’re probably not going to win a championship anyways.
Hopefully you are right with drinking that jazz management kool aid. Personally I don't think this roster is even close to being a championship team and constantly wasting draft picks had to led a complete cap of our upside. I would sure feel a hell of a lot different about this team if we had Anfernee Simons and Darius Bazley waiting in the wings to help support Mitchell and Gobert in the very near future. In the meantime we could have supplemented their growth with guys like Julius Randle or Bobby Portis and Jeremy Lamb and maybe even Brogdon who I would have been willing to give up a future 1st for.

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Not drinking the koolaide. The two year window has less to do with the Jazz and more with the current state of the league. It's very up for grabs. This is also Gobert's prime, and there's no guarantee Mitchell will even get to this point or that Gobert will resign here.

You buy the hope of the future, which is no guarantee. That's fine, it's what the NBA does better than anything else. Sell hope.

Crunch 99 · Post #11 » by **Crunch 99** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:26 pm

It's too early to be drawing conclusions, but so far I really wish we could have landed bigger sized Mirotic rather than smaller sized Bogdanovic. Just in time for the Jazz moving from big to small, some other teams got bigger. Last night in the preseason game against the Blazers, 7 foot PF Zach Collins ate our lunch in Q1, scoring 9 points on four attempts and blocking two shots, including getting a block on Rudy. It's a lot to ask Rudy to deal with two opposing 7 footers on the court at the same time, Whiteside and Collins. Defending the Blazers will get even tougher when talented 7 footer Nurkic returns to action. And big Pau Gasol might even have a few good minutes per game left in the tank as well.

Our opening home game is against the Lakers. In some games in the past, Rudy had his hands full just dealing with McGee, who appears to be every bit as lengthy as Rudy. Now add in lengthy, 6-10 AD at PF and 250 lb Lebron James at small forward, our Jazz front line could be woefully undersized. And the Lakers have Dwight Howard to throw in to that mix as well.

The Jazz gave up a whopping 129 ppg to NBA teams this preseason.

sipclip · Post #12 » by **sipclip** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:50 pm

KqWIN wrote:
sipclip wrote:
KqWIN wrote:I actually think this was the perfect window to do something. We paid a high price for Conley, but this two year window is likely the best chance the Jazz will have to win a championship in a very long time. Decades maybe. Gobert+Mitchell for the price of one max contract is not something you can take advantage.

The NBA breathes on hope. It’s completely acceptable to be bad in the meantime for the hope, not guarantee, of something good in the future. However, the hope of something good in the present at the cost of the future is not met with the same acceptance. Hard core fans seem to prefer the former, casual fans the latter.

At the end of the day, we’re probably not going to win a championship anyways.
Hopefully you are right with drinking that jazz management kool aid. Personally I don't think this roster is even close to being a championship team and constantly wasting draft picks had to led a complete cap of our upside. I would sure feel a hell of a lot different about this team if we had Anfernee Simons and Darius Bazley waiting in the wings to help support Mitchell and Gobert in the very near future. In the meantime we could have supplemented their growth with guys like Julius Randle or Bobby Portis and Jeremy Lamb and maybe even Brogdon who I would have been willing to give up a future 1st for.

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Not drinking the koolaide. The two year window has less to do with the Jazz and more with the current state of the league. It's very up for grabs. This is also Gobert's prime, and there's no guarantee Mitchell will even get to this point or that Gobert will resign here.

You buy the hope of the future, which is no guarantee. That's fine, it's what the NBA does better than anything else. Sell hope.

I'm not sure where this 2 year window stuff is coming from. The top of the west is as strong as it has ever been. The bottom line is talent and I think we are far less talented overall than teams like the lakers, clippers and nuggets. Then I feel like there are a bunch of teams in the same tier as us like the blazers, rockets, pelicans and warriors. When the warriors get Thompson back though I would put them with that top tier.

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KqWIN · Post #13 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:59 pm

sipclip wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
sipclip wrote:Hopefully you are right with drinking that jazz management kool aid. Personally I don't think this roster is even close to being a championship team and constantly wasting draft picks had to led a complete cap of our upside. I would sure feel a hell of a lot different about this team if we had Anfernee Simons and Darius Bazley waiting in the wings to help support Mitchell and Gobert in the very near future. In the meantime we could have supplemented their growth with guys like Julius Randle or Bobby Portis and Jeremy Lamb and maybe even Brogdon who I would have been willing to give up a future 1st for.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Not drinking the koolaide. The two year window has less to do with the Jazz and more with the current state of the league. It's very up for grabs. This is also Gobert's prime, and there's no guarantee Mitchell will even get to this point or that Gobert will resign here.

You buy the hope of the future, which is no guarantee. That's fine, it's what the NBA does better than anything else. Sell hope.
I'm not sure where this 2 year window stuff is coming from. The top of the west is as strong as it has ever been. The bottom line is talent and I think we are far less talented overall than teams like the lakers, clippers and nuggets. Then I feel like there are a bunch of teams in the same tier as us like the blazers, rockets, pelicans and warriors. When the warriors get Thompson back though I would put them with that top tier.

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Totally disagree that the top of the west is as strong as it’s ever been. The past few years have been dominated by one of the best, if not the greatest team ever. The Lakers and Clippers have a lot of talent, but they are nowhere near what the Warriors were.

The two year window is obvious. Gobert and Mitchell cost the same as one max contract combined. It’s a very rare circumstance that they had to take advantage of.

You can argue whether or not you liked the players they got, but they absolutely had to go for it now. I said that before the off season started. The combination of the Warriors dynasty ending and the cheapness of Gobert+Mitchell is not something you get often.

I know that there are fans who’s favorite thing is watching young players develop and hoping that they can bring future success. I understand that. But I also don’t mind trying to win when there’s an opportunity to do so. This is the best opportunity we’ll have in a very long time.

tleikheen · Post #14 » by **tleikheen** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:27 pm

I know everyone says the pre season doesn't matter but it does give you a window to look through to get an idea what your team is going to look like in the upcoming season. Love what Conley and Mitchell can do on offense but their going to give up tons of points up on the defensive end and I'm not optimistic about them controlling the pace of the games. Ingles,Bogdanovic and O'Neale are typical Snyder players ,unathletic overachieving hustlers who already look like their going to have some tough nights on the boards and guarding their man. It will be fun watching them score points ….. but will it be in playing catchup and trying to keep pace with the bigger ,longer teams in the Western Conference.

KqWIN · Post #15 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 pm

The defensive issues are because of Rudy and the team not being together. It's not an athleticism/length issue. We've had several seasons of elite defenses with similar or worse length/athleticism. Ingles, O'Neale, and Mitchell have been standouts defensively this preseason despite the overall defense being trash. Seems odd to point them out as weakpoints if we're going to use the pre-season as a gauge on the regular season. Here are the issues with the team in the preseason:

1. Rudy is playing no defense
2. The team doesn't know how to play together on defense
3. Bogey is trash because his decision making process is so slow

Crunch 99 · Post #16 » by **Crunch 99** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:07 pm

I am very optimistic about our offense. I suspect our floor spacing will be as great as advertised and Bojan's shooting will come around. Our unselfish players will pass the ball; they will get us many good looks and we will score lots of points. I am even optimistic about Mudiay as backup.

But this season I am not so confident about the D. We've got a great defensive minded Coach who will probably eventually get the Jazz D on track, but I think I might chicken out on taking the over for wins this season. I am not even certain what the current Las Vegas line for Jazz season wins is. Does anyone know?

Go Jazz!

KqWIN · Post #17 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:22 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:I am very optimistic about our offense. I suspect our floor spacing will be as great as advertised and Bojan's shooting will come around. Our unselfish players will pass the ball; they will get us many good looks and we will score lots of points. I am even optimistic about Mudiay as backup.

I've had quite a bit of luck taking the over for regular season Jazz wins in recent years. Last season, I made it by the skin of my teeth, beating the over by just one half game. This season I am not so confident about the D. We've got a great defensive minded Coach who will probably get the Jazz D on track, but I think I might chicken out on taking the over for wins this season. I am not even certain what the current Las Vegas line for Jazz season wins is. Does anyone know?

Go Jazz!

I am also confident about the offense. It’s very popular to be pessimistic about our preseason, and understandably so...but two things that have gone very wrong (Rudy’s defense and Bojan’s shooting) you have to feel good about. Might take some time, but I’m confident that Rudy is not actually a bad defensive player and Bogey isn’t the worst shooter in the league.

The Jazz over under is 53.5. Tied for #1 in the west. That’s a lot of wins....

KqWIN · Post #18 » by **KqWIN** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:09 pm

Watching over stuff again and it is pretty evident that we are small. Conley is tiny, Bojan has no range.

It’s the trade off we face for (hopefully) being able to make a wide open shot.

Catchall · Post #19 » by **Catchall** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:12 am

KqWIN wrote:Watching over stuff again and it is pretty evident that we are small. Conley is tiny, Bojan has no range.

It’s the trade off we face for (hopefully) being able to make a wide open shot.

Bojan has 27-ft range. That's enough for a stretch-forward.

KqWIN · Post #20 » by **KqWIN** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 am

Catchall wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Watching over stuff again and it is pretty evident that we are small. Conley is tiny, Bojan has no range.

It’s the trade off we face for (hopefully) being able to make a wide open shot.

Bojan has 27-ft range. That's enough for a stretch-forward.

I mean defensive range. He's ok on the ball, but he does not cover ground or space on defense.