2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#141 » by MTJazzv3 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:51 pm

jazzfanWA wrote:If the Jazz had this exact team minus Conley and then obtained Conley w/o giving up anyone of worth we would be ecstatic. Instead, Conley is on the verge of rejoining the team and no one is too excited.


Good point but Conley is surprisingly a big unknown - I wouldn't say the Jazz are lacking at PG without him with Mitchell and Mudiay playing that role well. I would be more ecstatic if a $30M scoring 4 was coming back on line.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#142 » by zero24gravity » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:54 pm

jazzfanWA wrote:If the Jazz had this exact team minus Conley and then obtained Conley w/o giving up anyone of worth we would be ecstatic. Instead, Conley is on the verge of rejoining the team and no one is too excited.


Count me in on "team excited". I'd be more excited if they had an athletic "big" of Conley's caliber coming back, but no way I'm counting out Mike as a wonderful addition to what the team has going on now.

Side note: I've really liked the Mudiay signing since the day he was added, but I still think he might be the best trade piece the team has to shore up the front-line. Conley, Mitchell at the point + Clarkson (and Ingles) makes that spot far deeper than Davis/Bradley/Niang. I mean, they'd be screwed if Rudy went down, no matter who the back-up is, but at this point they'd also be in a terrible spot is Niang missed any time. As great as he's playing, your team shouldn't be S.O.L. if a role player like Niang isn't playing. They need a ..... Jeff Green-type, lol.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#143 » by sipclip » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:15 pm

jazzfanWA wrote:If the Jazz had this exact team minus Conley and then obtained Conley w/o giving up anyone of worth we would be ecstatic. Instead, Conley is on the verge of rejoining the team and no one is too excited.
First off we are talking about a Conley that hasn't looked good in a jazz uniform. We are also talking about a position that has been a major strength with Conley out of the lineup and Mitchell and Mudiay playing extremely well. When Conley comes back we are looking at a pretty serious minutes crunch and I'm interested to see how it works out. All the talk is that when Mike comes back we will bring Royce off the bench but I don't see how it makes sense to pull your top perimeter defender who is also a really good 3pt shooter off the court for a poor perimeter defender that is really small. I could understand it if we were starved for offense but that isn't the case. From your bench though you are usually looking for explosive scoring and a trio of Conley, Clarkson and Mudiay could bring quite the punch with Niang spacing the floor for them and Bradley cleaning the offensive glass to get extra possessions.

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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#144 » by Catchall » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:08 pm

Jazz's offensive rating is up to 11th for the season and their defensive rating is now 8th. In the past 10+ games, we've been better than that.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#145 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:18 pm

jazzfanWA wrote:If the Jazz had this exact team minus Conley and then obtained Conley w/o giving up anyone of worth we would be ecstatic. Instead, Conley is on the verge of rejoining the team and no one is too excited.

I wouldn't be ecstatic. I always felt we should have been the ones getting assets for absorbing his huge contract. Think of what we could have done with that money.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#146 » by Crunch 99 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:48 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
Crunch 99 wrote:Comments from ESPN this morning concerning Rudy Gobert:

Rudy Gobert is trying to make sure the West coaches have no choice but to finally put him on the All-Star team. His plus-minus during the Jazz's 13-1 run is a league-best plus-191 -- 49 points better than any player who isn't a Jazz teammate during that span. Gobert leads the West in rebounds (14.4 per game), field goal percentage (67.3%) and screen assists (7.6) in addition to his typical defensive dominance. -- MacMahon


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28471906/nba-power-rankings-week-13-latest-risers-fallers


Leaving Jazz players out due to their place in the standings (slow starts the last couple years) has been the easy excuse that coaches/media could use. Well, they are currently tied for #2 in the West. Now, drop 2 games in a row & they could slip to 5th and give the coaches reason to leave them off the squad again, so if Rudy & DM want to play in the AS game, they better make sure they keep winning.

Assuming the starters stay the same as current voting (James, Davis, Leonard, Doncic, Harden), IMO the next 6 spots should go to; George, Jokic, Lillard, Westbrook (you know he's not getting left out), Mitchell, Gobert, ..... followed by the final spot going to Towns, Booker, Morant or Porzingis.


Yes, hopefully we can keep winning seven out of ten games when the schedule gets tougher, but after looking at your list of players and the various team records, I think Rudy is a near lock to finally make the All Star team. Towns, who I think was the final big man to beat him out last season, has even better individual stats than he had last season, but Towns has only played in 23 of the first 40 games, and his team has only won 15 of the first 40 games versus 19 of the first 40 games last season. It would be an unpardonable sin to take Towns ahead of Rudy again.

I think DM will make it too, but Rudy is the stronger candidate imo.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#147 » by Rauxcee » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:08 am

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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#148 » by babyjax13 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:25 am

Not that it's possible, but I'd love to see Buddy Heild on this team.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#149 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:59 pm

Interesting podcast by Locke today, where he's breaking down the impact of Conley's return to the lineup and how it affects other players and their touches. Don't know if I agree with everything but it's interesting nonetheless and props to him for putting in the work. The main guy who's affected by Conley's return according to him is Ingles, which matches the eye-test.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#150 » by Rauxcee » Fri Feb 7, 2020 10:33 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Interesting podcast by Locke today, where he's breaking down the impact of Conley's return to the lineup and how it affects other players and their touches. Don't know if I agree with everything but it's interesting nonetheless and props to him for putting in the work. The main guy who's affected by Conley's return according to him is Ingles, which matches the eye-test.


Ingles has been terrible when Conley has been available, which was the case to start the season and the case now. Royce definitely doesn't look the same either (he has always been a better starter than bench player). Both of those players have provided better, complimentary play for longer stretches this season than anything Conley has provided- and I'm not sure what Conley is providing is worth the loss in their production.

Before Conley went out with injury the Jazz were playing selfish offense, Ingles was invisible, Royce was meh, and our defense was terrible. Conley goes out with injury and the players pass the ball- the selfish hero ball chucking basically disappears, defense improves, Ingles thrives and looks great, Royce looks solid. Conley comes back and we're back to where we were.

Now before the Conley stans come at me: I'm not blaming the recent stretch on him necessarily. The whole team is playing like tarsh and Conley has been okay for the most part. He didn't even play in the first Denver game and we still lost. Earlier in the year the Jazz had 5 blow out losses, almost back-to-back, and Conley only played in 2.5 of them. Its not really on him. ...The timing is suspicious however.

Yes our schedule was easy, no denying it was a cake walk- but the team looked better- again they were passing, playing with energy, playing defense. They played a better style of ball.

These last 5 games haven't been against good teams either. Without context, the Rox and Nuggets look like great teams as our schedules are comparable, but when you look at who played it wasn't a good team that was fielded. There is no reason for the Jazz to have lost 5 in a row to these teams. They are not any better within context than the teams we played early January.

Yes teams drop games they shouldnt- happens all the time. But that is a single game and the team usually bounces back to a solid style of play. The Jazz are clearly not doing that. The players are off, the defense is off, the offense is off- and I don't think its because of the opponents. They are beating themselves. They aren't playing good teams right now, so why?

This is where I (unfairly?) blame Conley:
Could something about his presence be psychologically messing with the team? It shouldn't be the case. He's a great teammate, he's not a cancer, he should have been a perfect fit that brought this team to the next step (according to a lot of people but not all).

And yet, that's not what's happening at all. You listen to national media guys and they all talk about how shocked they are that he isn't working. He should fit. You watch the jazz play and as an individual he's been okay- but the offense looks terrible as well as the defense when he's around. Can't blame him really, except he's the common denominator in that when he's present, the team and chemistry looks off. I know advanced stats say that his presence is still one of the best starting 5's, but my eyes feel differently.

So the question is, what is it about his presence that shakes up the chemistry, makes the players play selfish hero ball, makes the defense vansih, makes Ingles and Royce all but disappear?

Is it the expectations of what he was supposed to provide? Is it the failure to meet those expectations? Is there not enough ball when he's around? Is it because he is making so much money and was touted as the guy who finally got us some FA'ls, was going to bring us to the next level, and basically be the hero, that it has bothered our main/original guys (especially with him not playing to expectations)?

He's not a bad teammate. Everyone seems to like him, and yet there is this common theme happening with the team that I don't think has to do with the schedule. I'm not sure its fair to blame Conley. Actually it probably isn't. Its not his fault, but sometimes players just don't work out and click with a team when they should. It happens. However, this team is all out of whack and subconsciously something about Conley is bothering the way this team plays (IMO). It sure looks that way given the timing of the poor stretches of play versus good.


Come @ me Conley stans, or non Conley stans who think I'm crazy. :lol: I probably am, but its weird is all.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#151 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat Feb 8, 2020 11:50 am

The problem with Conley is even when he plays well he's not elevating this team. He's playing like a role player and it's like a role player is having a good night. Part of it is not his fault--Snyder's system takes away many of the things a traditional PG is supposed to help with. But the bottom line is that he's still not making a difference even when he's playing well--the last stretch of games is a good example. Plus, his defense is still not good. If he isn't scoring well, he's not giving this team anything.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#152 » by vryadli » Sat Feb 8, 2020 12:21 pm

Anybody discussing the effect of Conley return should remember that his absence almost exactly overlapped with incredibly soft schedule. So it is rather difficult to separate: does Conley cause some adverse effects (including chemistry...) or every starter, but Rudy, just shrink down against harder opponents.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#153 » by KqWIN » Sat Feb 8, 2020 3:57 pm

vryadli wrote:Anybody discussing the effect of Conley return should remember that his absence almost exactly overlapped with incredibly soft schedule. So it is rather difficult to separate: does Conley cause some adverse effects (including chemistry...) or every starter, but Rudy, just shrink down against harder opponents.


By spreads, this recent 6 game stretch was one of our easiest schedules of the season because of how depleted our opponents were. Not sure you can blame recent play on schedule when it has been very soft.

I'm not going to put all the blame on Conley, especially when he plays well, but there is a too many cooks in the kitchen problem. There's a reason why our players can't all play well at the same time, and it's because there is only one ball and players aren't willing to sacrifice their opportunity. In recent years, we had an issue with too many players who can't shoot. Now the issue is that we have too many players who only want to shoot or be the main ball handler.

Our current starting lineup (4 ballhogs +Rudy) is -1.15. Consider the alternatives:

Royce in for Conley +17.81
Royce in for Ingles +12.7
Royce in for Mitchell +11.28

We play so much better when we add in Royce because he doesn't need the ball and is way better without it. This is why I believe Royce must play. His defense and rebounding are way more important than having another ballhog on the court. I also think Ingles must play because he's the only ball handler looking to pass first and he's also the best guard defender on the team.

When looking at a closing lineup, you're really looking at 2/3 of Mitchell, Conley, and Bogdanovic. Hell, you can put Clarkson into this group. You only need 2 of them, but you really need Rudy, Ingles, and Royce in the game as the glue.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#154 » by red4hf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:40 pm

I know it's only 4 games, but in February Conley is putting up 20.3 points, 5.0 rebounds, 4.8 assists, and only 1.5 turnovers, playing 32 minutes, and shooting 47% from the field, and 50% from three on 6.5 attempts......
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#155 » by red4hf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:53 pm

And according to "advanced" metrics Tony Bradley is second on the Jazz in WIN SHARES per 48 minutes...... Yeah......
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#156 » by BudTugly » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:45 am

For the young ones


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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#157 » by Crunch 99 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:13 pm

There are a few interesting comments concerning the Jazz in the latest NBA.com Power Rankings:

Snips:
Ranked #6 in the NBA. The Jazz are an offensive team now. With three guys - Donovan Mitchell, Jordan Clarkson and Bojan Bogdanovic - averaging 20 points or more (on a combined effective field goal percentage of 61%), they scored 119.3 per 100 possessions as they went into the break with four straight wins.

The Jazz rank 22nd defensively over the last three weeks (115.0 points allowed per 100 possessions). They just don't force turnovers (they've committed 58 more turnovers than their opponents over their last 12 games) and their opponents have been shooting better both inside and outside. The defensive drop-off comes with the context that the Jazz have played 10 straight games against teams that rank in the top 11 offensively.

https://www.nba.com/powerrankings/2019-20-week-18
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#158 » by Crunch 99 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:14 pm

The Jazz are an offensive team now.

The Jazz rank 22nd defensively over the last three weeks (115.0 points allowed per 100 possessions). They just don't force turnovers (they've committed 58 more turnovers than their opponents over their last 12 games) and their opponents have been shooting better both inside and outside. The defensive drop-off comes with the context that the Jazz have played 10 straight games against teams that rank in the top 11 offensively.

https://www.nba.com/powerrankings/2019-20-week-18


I know last season's roster wasn't good enough to go far in the playoffs and changes were necessary, but I miss watching the Jazz play exceptional defense during the regular season. Hopefully they can stop this recent slippage on D and get more stops. Go Jazz!
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#159 » by Crunch 99 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:13 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:I know last season's roster wasn't good enough to go far in the playoffs and changes were necessary, but I miss watching the Jazz play exceptional defense during the regular season. Hopefully they can stop this recent slippage on D and get more stops. Go Jazz!


Last night we gave up 131 points in a loss to the Suns. Over the last ten games, NBA.com ranks us #23 in the league on defense at 115.4. Last season, we put an entire season in at an impressive 105.3 rating, good enough for number two in the league.

The computer models at 538 and ESPN now project us to win just one more game than last season. Last summer's moves to improve are not panning out at the moment.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread 

Post#160 » by Inigo Montoya » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:27 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:
Crunch 99 wrote:I know last season's roster wasn't good enough to go far in the playoffs and changes were necessary, but I miss watching the Jazz play exceptional defense during the regular season. Hopefully they can stop this recent slippage on D and get more stops. Go Jazz!


Last night we gave up 131 points in a loss to the Suns. Over the last ten games, NBA.com ranks us #23 in the league on defense at 115.4. Last season, we put an entire season in at an impressive 105.3 rating, good enough for number two in the league. The computer models at 538 and ESPN now project us to win just one more game than last season. Last summer's moves to improve are not panning out at the moment.

Regular season wins aren't the measure--at least for me--about if the moves in the offseason were good or not. It was to be expected that other teams will also make moves to improve themselves, it just so happened that the Jazz were the first, but we were likely to end up at roughly the same place as far as wins were concerned (at least that's how I saw it). The west was going to be crowded at the top, and it is, and even 1 game can determine the final seeding. The measure for me is:

Is the team is significantly better than the ones we had in the previous 3 seasons or so? I'd say the answer is no.
Is this team a real contender? I'd say the answer is no.
Will this team go further than the teams we had in the previous 3 seasons (and not in a Portland-kind-of-way, where it's obvious they made the WCF simply because of favorable seeding and weren't a real contender)? TBD, but I'd say no.
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