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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Sun Dec 8, 2019 7:51 pm
by babyjax13
Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I think if the move from Rubio/Favors to Conley/Bojan makes us get HCA in the first round, then it was a worthwhile move. A competent bench can always be built midseason - we did it last season.


I strongly disagree. Home court advantage in the first round is not worth throwing away next 5-7 years for (which is what that trade did), especially since the this team managed to overcome not having HCA in the first round both vs the Clippers and Thunder in the past 3 seasons. What matters is how far this team gets and this is what these offseason moves will and should be judged by. If we get no further than previous seasons, then the moves the front office made had no impact at all and are a complete failure. They could use that extra one home game in the playoffs to pay for Conley's salary, though.


I don't think it threw away the next 5-7 years. If we want to move any of these players and do a soft reset, we can.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Sun Dec 8, 2019 8:50 pm
by Inigo Montoya
babyjax13 wrote:I don't think it threw away the next 5-7 years. If we want to move any of these players and do a soft reset, we can.


Once Gobert signs his supermax and DM signs his max contract, this team will be capped out with no way to bring more high-end talent to help them. The only players with real value on the Jazz are Gobert and DM so doing a soft resent isn't very likely. Also, time is against us, as Gobert will be on the last year of his contract next season, which will reduce the assets we could get for him. Once he signs a supermax deal, his cost will also affect his trade value--at the time of its signing, it might be the biggest contract in league history. We also traded so many picks and let players go for nothing or held onto them too long that their value had depreciated and we got very little to nothing for them, so the Jazz have very little assets left. If we keep this core we'll be stuck in 1st-2nd round exit purgatory for the duration of Gobert and DM's contracts, which is why imho we threw these years away, because that is supposedly not the goal.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Sun Dec 8, 2019 9:45 pm
by babyjax13
Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I don't think it threw away the next 5-7 years. If we want to move any of these players and do a soft reset, we can.


Once Gobert signs his supermax and DM signs his max contract, this team will be capped out with no way to bring more high-end talent to help them. The only players with real value on the Jazz are Gobert and DM so doing a soft resent isn't very likely. Also, time is against us, as Gobert will be on the last year of his contract next season, which will reduce the assets we could get for him. Once he signs a supermax deal, his cost will also affect his trade value--at the time of its signing, it might be the biggest contract in league history. We also traded so many picks and let players go for nothing or held onto them too long that their value had depreciated and we got very little to nothing for them, so the Jazz have very little assets left. If we keep this core we'll be stuck in 1st-2nd round exit purgatory for the duration of Gobert and DM's contracts, which is why imho we threw these years away, because that is supposedly not the goal.


Look, I don't think we did the greatest job of asset management, especially with the string of picks we have traded for stopgap point guards...but I think you are overly doom and gloom. We weren't going to have cap space for free agency anyway, so the question is, can we put together attractive trade packages for players that can push us over the edge? I think the answer to that question is yes.

Next season we will have around $44 million in expiring contracts, we will have Bogey and Jingles who can be flipped for some value, we will have some picks down the road, etc. I don't know if this core can ever get over the hump, but the difference between that happening and not was not Malcolm Brogdon, Spencer Dinwiddie, or D'Angelo. The way we get there is (a) a well-built roster that compliments our star players, and (b) luck. Right now, we have a good chunk of what we need for (a)...admittedly, Conley wasn't what I had imagined he'd be, but Bojan was every bit of it. Put together a good bench, and we are absolutely a contender.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 4:29 pm
by KqWIN
Net Rating by # of starters on the floor. We fall off a cliff whenever we make a sub.

Image

via pbpstats.com

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 4:57 pm
by babyjax13
KqWIN wrote:Net Rating by # of starters on the floor. We fall off a cliff whenever we make a sub.

Image

via pbpstats.com


Amazing. We go from the 6th best offense and the 6th best defense (4th best net rating) to:
17th ranked offense, 14th defense (26th net)
30th ranked offense, 2nd defense (18th net)
28th offense, 26th defense (29th net)
22nd offense, 5th defense (14th net)

We fall off an absolute cliff.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 5:30 pm
by KqWIN
As much as we (I) complain about what the starters are doing, it's important to remember that the real problem is the bench. We have one of the best starting units in the league despite our struggles. Average bench play would make us one of the best teams in the league.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:16 pm
by babyjax13
Another idea to help the bench. Dante Exum + Tony Bradley + 2 2nds for Dennis Schroeder. Not crazy about him, but he's a very capable backup that can play the 1 and the 2, and would certainly buoy the offense in the second unit. We could then sign someone like Alex Abrines or Kenneth Faried - either of whom could provide some spot minutes.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:22 pm
by babyjax13
I also love Tim Frazier, who is rotting on Detroit's bench at this point. He makes good reads, he is a fantastic passer, and he can hit open shots. Not a great defender, sometimes gets stuck in the midrange.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:13 pm
by red4hf
babyjax13 wrote:Another idea to help the bench. Donovan Mitchell + Tony Bradley + 2 2nds for Dennis Schroeder. Not crazy about him, but he's a very capable backup that can play the 1 and the 2, and would certainly buoy the offense in the second unit. We could then sign someone like Alex Abrines or Kenneth Faried - either of whom could provide some spot minutes.


Did I miss something???????

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:33 pm
by babyjax13
red4hf wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Another idea to help the bench. Donovan Mitchell + Tony Bradley + 2 2nds for Dennis Schroeder. Not crazy about him, but he's a very capable backup that can play the 1 and the 2, and would certainly buoy the offense in the second unit. We could then sign someone like Alex Abrines or Kenneth Faried - either of whom could provide some spot minutes.


Did I miss something???????


Oh lord, that was supposed to say Dante Exum

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:39 pm
by red4hf
Lol..... I was actually thinking about how much the Jazz could have saved by trading for Schroeder instead of Conley.......

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:44 pm
by babyjax13
Utah has no players in the top 50 of RPM. ("Wins" in parentheses, don't really know what they mean other than to suggest which players contribute toward winning?)

Positive:
51) Mitchell (1.96)
59) Bogs (1.69)
76) Rudy (1.4)
120) Conley (.89)
169) Royce (.68)
Negative:
203) Mudiay (.26)
209) Bradley (.12)
292) Niang (.02)
307) Goss (0)
312) Dante (0)
341) Ingles (-.17)
388) Davis (-.1)
398) Green (-.36)

Rudy was 16th last season, Joe was 33rd, Favors was 40th, and Mitchell was 52nd. Lots of noise early in the season, but it definitely suggests that our bench is an anchor-weight (and I assume why out starters don't look better). RPM is supposed to correct for the quality of teammates, but I'm not sure it's actually doing that fully.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:19 pm
by KqWIN
red4hf wrote:Lol..... I was actually thinking about how much the Jazz could have saved by trading for Schroeder instead of Conley.......


When you look at all the PG's that were moved or could have been made available, the Jazz paid the most and got the worst PG at the same time. It's ridiculous.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:33 pm
by red4hf
KqWIN wrote:
red4hf wrote:Lol..... I was actually thinking about how much the Jazz could have saved by trading for Schroeder instead of Conley.......


When you look at all the PG's that were moved or could have been made available, the Jazz paid the most and got the worst PG at the same time. It's ridiculous.


Absolutely true, it's so frustrating.......

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:40 pm
by Crunch 99
Ed Davis' offense, which has never been much, has dropped to the point where he is ranked number 53 out of 53 centers on ORPM and number 88 out of 88 centers on OFFRTG at NBA.com (filter MP > 12mpg). We've got to get a little bit of something out of him on offense. Davis has only played 13 games so far and is only 30 years old, so I would hope he would be able to settle in and perform more similarly to his last couple of years on a per 36 min basis and shooting percentage basis.

I think Bradley is worth continuing to give some run against select matchups to keep on developing him. He's already as good a defensive and offensive rebounder as Davis imo, and he is dramatically better on offense. I assume Davis is getting all the minutes because he still has known upside on both defense and offense to get back to where he's been the last couple of years, and with his veteran know-how, he probably gets out of position on the floor less often than Bradley does.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:32 pm
by Crunch 99
It is still kind of early in the season with a chance to turn things around, but so far it sort of looks like four of the five Jazz off season veteran acquisitions are a bit of bust: Conley, Green, Davis and Mudiay. I've been a wishful thinking defender of the Jazz front office in the past, but it does seem like they have more than their share of mistakes. Another recent bad move imo was giving Joe Ingles a $14 million dollar extension set to begin at age 34. Even if Ingles is still playing pretty well then (and he isn't playing particularly well right now), there just aren't teams lining up to pay 34 year old bench players that kind of money. Most of them are available for a veterans minimum or mid level exception.

That said, I am still hoping for better things out of Conley and the bench this season.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:44 pm
by Goober
Joe ingles could be used as salary filler on the final year of his deal, could maybe help with a sign and trade to get someone to play with Rudy/Mitchell

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:49 pm
by KqWIN
Crunch 99 wrote:It is still kind of early in the season with a chance to turn things around, but so far it sort of looks like four of the five Jazz off season veteran acquisitions are a bit of bust: Conley, Green, Davis and Mudiay. I've been a wishful thinking defender of the Jazz front office in the past, but it does seem like they have more than their share of mistakes. Another recent bad move imo was giving Joe Ingles a $14 million dollar extension set to begin at age 34. Even if Ingles is still playing pretty well then (and he isn't playing very well right now), there just aren't teams lining up to pay 34 year old bench players that kind of money. Most of them are available for a veterans minimum or mid level exception.

That said, I am still hoping for better things out of Conley and the bench this season.


It is pretty amazing how the FO whiffed on everything. Conley cost more than any other PG acquisition and is also the worst PG. Ed Davis was a foolproof signing but he's not been good. Mudiay and Green are minimum contracts and are still somehow disappointing.

It's a major failure, and while this team can certainly improve their play, it only gets worse from a team building perspective. This is the team. It's not going to change.

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:53 pm
by stitches
Read on Twitter

Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Regular Season Thread

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:42 pm
by Inigo Montoya
It sucks that he re-aggravated his injury because the longer he's out, the less time he has to gel with the team and make this whole thing work. Having said that, injury concerns were a well-known issue with Conley prior to the trade, so it's not like it's a total surprise that it happened. This is slowly turning into the worst-case scenario of the trade outcome. Maybe Exum will get some burn.