Let's talk about the bench.

KqWIN · Post #1 » by **KqWIN** » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:00 pm

Think it's time to overhaul the bench lineups. It can't get any worse than it is right now, getting blown out by the Warriors and Hawks benches. Here's the current 4:

Davis
Green
Niang
Mudiay

Personally, I would start by exchanging Mudiay and Davis for Exum and Bradley. Mudiay does his thing, and to his credit has a positive +/-, but I simply don't believe he's a good player. Ed Davis has been woefully disappointing. His biggest contribution is being less bad than Tony Bradley while having very few if any strengths.

Exum+Bradley have some synergy imo. Bradley is a solid roll man, and Exum is probably the only guy on the roster who can get to the rim and dish it off to the roll man. Exum has been VERY bad and I don't think Bradley is a sure thing NBA player yet, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

As far as Niang/Green, I'm unsure. Green is playing better as of late, but I have a sweet spot for Niang. I don't think it matters too much. Both are bad, I like Niang's attitude more, but Green is more talented. I'd only pick one though, not both. I'm also very willing to give Brantley/Morgan a chance.

Maybe the most important choice is which starter to sub out early and play with the bench. In the past it's been Ingles, now it's Mitchell. It's been all bad this year. Typically when you think staggering it's focused around offensive firepower...but I just don't think that works with so many ball stoppers and ball hogs on this roster. Instead, I'd try a hustle lineup. Bring Royce back with the bench.

We need one last player. Fitting the hustle lineup, I want to give Miye Oni a chance. He hasn't shot the ball well in the G-League, but he's put up a lot of good peripheral numbers and I think he, Royce, and Exum could reek havoc on bench units defensively even with Bradley behind them.

Long rant post, but here's my proposed bench lineup"

C Bradley
F Green/Niang/Brantley/Morgan
F O'Neale
G Oni
G Exum

Very light on shooting and shot creation, but good hustle and energy. Hopefully the Exum+Bradley pairing can get us going.

MTJazzv3 · Post #2 » by **MTJazzv3** » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:50 pm

I've been scratching my head for a while now on Q's unwillingness to re-shape the bench rotations - I like your ideas above. Going with a hustle on D bench should at least stop the bleeding when they are in, and I have a suspicion that Royce could take on some more offensive responsibility if he was more featured and the team could get up and down the court. As for Exum, unless there is something physically wrong with him right now it's hard to understand the Jazz management icing him - not like he is going to lose any more value playing than nightly DNP's. Kid needs a change of scenery for sure. I'd love to see him get picked up by the rebuilding Warriors or such and get some real tick to see if he can finally find a legit groove.

AingesBurner · Post #3 » by **AingesBurner** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:59 am

NORMAN POWELL

MTJazzv3 · Post #4 » by **MTJazzv3** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:28 am

Wow. Its gotten seriously quiet around here since I was hanging out last. Is it just me or has my Jazz enthusiasm hitting a weird wall? At this rate I will have watched the fewest Jazz games in a season for a very long time. I think I'm getting tired of getting my hopes up. We looked SO GOOD on paper heading into this season. And I totally don't get what Q is doing with the bench. I'm sure he is way smarter than me in basketball so we'll see how it turns out this year. The Jazz are weird - they have blown the doors down each of the last two seasons after starting slow. Could be a team jell and Q thing?

Tom349 · Post #5 » by **Tom349** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:48 am

Here's the thing. We are 28 games into the season and have 54 more to play in time to get ready for the playoffs and figure out the rotation. So why is he so set on using the same guys off the bench and so unwilling to try and develop our younger players. We don't know what we're working with because he doesn't play them. They could be useless but they could also be the answer.

babyjax13 · Post #6 » by **babyjax13** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:58 am

Tom349 wrote:Here's the thing. We are 28 games into the season and have 54 more to play in time to get ready for the playoffs and figure out the rotation. So why is so set on using the same guys off the bench and so unwilling to not try and develop our younger players. We don't know what we're working with because he doesn't play them. They could be useless but they could also be the answer.

I think the fear is that if the young players don't work, you'll lose the veterans if they don't get to play. Plus, Quin gets to see these guys in practice...it's not like he's been particularly afraid of playing young guys before. IDK, I don't expect three 21 year olds to replace a good chunk of our bench. I just hope we make a trade for some help - there are reasonable guys to acquire like Marvin Williams and Wayne Ellington who would provide some modest but needed help.

babyjax13 · Post #7 » by **babyjax13** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:04 am

Also I think Gary Payton II is ready for the NBA now. He wasn't quite last year, but his game has taken a jump.

KqWIN · Post #8 » by **KqWIN** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:26 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
Tom349 wrote:Here's the thing. We are 28 games into the season and have 54 more to play in time to get ready for the playoffs and figure out the rotation. So why is so set on using the same guys off the bench and so unwilling to not try and develop our younger players. We don't know what we're working with because he doesn't play them. They could be useless but they could also be the answer.

I think the fear is that if the young players don't work, you'll lose the veterans if they don't get to play. Plus, Quin gets to see these guys in practice...it's not like he's been particularly afraid of playing young guys before. IDK, I don't expect three 21 year olds to replace a good chunk of our bench. I just hope we make a trade for some help - there are reasonable guys to acquire like Marvin Williams and Wayne Ellington who would provide some modest but needed help.

I see both points. It's very difficult to bench a veteran player. Especially a vet that took a pay cut or turned down other offers to play here. Having said that, we really need some fresh blood. There's enough positional versatility on this roster that we can work in a new player and try him out without disrupting everything.

The stars have won 12 games in a row. They are dominating. It's time to give some of those guys a chance.

Catchall · Post #9 » by **Catchall** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:56 pm

Ed Davis is shooting 44% from the field and 44% from the ft line. He averages less than one bucket per game. He can't dribble, pass or shoot. On top of that, he doesn't protect the rim. I don't see how he's playable, tbh.

So maybe start with that.

Post #10 » by **FJS** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:14 pm

Last year our 2nd unit was favors, crowder, o'neale, korver and exum or neto.
I miss that.

Post #11 » by **FJS** » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:48 pm

Bradley playing... only making fouls

CAE15 · Post #12 » by **CAE15** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:23 am

I think the jazz should similarly use a lineup of young guys who can learn to play together as a bench unit and come in and give us 12-15 minutes of just bust their ass in giving effort.

Whoever gives the most effort out of

Bradley/Morgan let them play. Lean to Morgan because he does have some stretch 4/5 potential.

Brantley/Niang lean to Niang as he's more of a creative scorer and obviously a good shooter. Brantley however gives a much needed punch of athleticism.

Exum/Oni/Mudiay play the 2 who play the best together both on offense amd defense.

Trade Green to a more contender so we don't look too bad on not fulfilling our promise to play him. Maybe Lakers

Trade Ed Davis to Portland so Dame can have his favorite teammate ever back.

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Catchall · Post #13 » by **Catchall** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:44 am

I think the Jazz could trade for Aminu without giving up too much. He rebounds, defends and plays hard. Jeff doesn't.

Charlie_S · Post #14 » by **Charlie_S** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:32 am

Catchall wrote:Ed Davis is shooting 44% from the field and 44% from the ft line. He averages less than one bucket per game. He can't dribble, pass or shoot. On top of that, he doesn't protect the rim. I don't see how he's playable, tbh.

So maybe start with that.

I wish Ekpe was still on the team.

Post #15 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:13 am

Charlie_S wrote:
Catchall wrote:Ed Davis is shooting 44% from the field and 44% from the ft line. He averages less than one bucket per game. He can't dribble, pass or shoot. On top of that, he doesn't protect the rim. I don't see how he's playable, tbh.

So maybe start with that.

I wish Ekpe was still on the team.

Ekpe couldn't score either. He was a good defender but he wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of bench production.

Charlie_S · Post #16 » by **Charlie_S** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:36 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
Charlie_S wrote:
Catchall wrote:Ed Davis is shooting 44% from the field and 44% from the ft line. He averages less than one bucket per game. He can't dribble, pass or shoot. On top of that, he doesn't protect the rim. I don't see how he's playable, tbh.

So maybe start with that.

I wish Ekpe was still on the team.

Ekpe couldn't score either. He was a good defender but he wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of bench production.

Having better defense in the bench unit would help a lot though. Jazz have no rim protection at all when Gobert's out. Plus Ekpe is still a bit more active moving around on the offensive end, even though he doesn't have any touch and has the worst hands I have ever seen in an NBA player. The only thing Ed Davis (or at least the version of Ed Davis we have seen so far) does better than Ekpe is rebounding, but the era of rebounding specialists in the NBA is kind of over.

dr0welf · Post #17 » by **dr0welf** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:52 pm

The bench defense seems to suck as they are playing the same defense as the starters where they funnel to the center. Problem is, Gobert is a hard guy to replace. Davis is too slow recognizing when to stop penetration and when to stay on his guy. He seems too worried about getting posterized then just trying to make a play. The first 4-5 games I remember watching Ed Davis play pretty good backup minutes for us, but since coming back from injury he hasn't been the same

KqWIN · Post #18 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:18 pm

Amazing line by Tony Bradley last night:

3 Minutes, 0/1/0/0/0 with 2 turnovers and 3 fouls....... +4!!!!!!!

Post #19 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:26 pm

KqWIN wrote:Amazing line by Tony Bradley last night:

3 Minutes, 0/1/0/0/0 with 2 turnovers and 3 fouls....... +4!!!!!!!

4 fouls, actually. That's even more impressive. Also shows why +/- is a garbage stat.

KqWIN · Post #20 » by **KqWIN** » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:50 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Amazing line by Tony Bradley last night:

3 Minutes, 0/1/0/0/0 with 2 turnovers and 3 fouls....... +4!!!!!!!

4 fouls, actually. That's even more impressive. Also shows why +/- is a garbage stat.

It's not a garbage stat...but it can be misleading when you try to tie it to a player's individual performance. Not too different from any other number.