The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded

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Who would you KEEP?

Rudy
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34%
Donovan
19
50%
Neither
6
16%
 
Total votes: 38

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The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#1 » by babyjax13 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:56 pm

For whatever it's worth.

"The Jazz have already begun working on the Mitchell-Gobert relationship, but sources say Mitchell remains reluctant to fix what might have been broken."

“It doesn’t appear salvageable,” one source with knowledge of the situation said.


https://theathletic.com/1735768/2020/04/10/behind-the-scenes-with-the-utah-jazz-during-the-days-that-changed-everything/
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#2 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:31 pm

This team in its current iteration is done. I see no good exit out of this situation.

Option 1: We keep them both and we have a team where one of our stars can't stand the other one and is likely to bolt the first chance he gets.
Option 2: We trade our best player Gobert for peanuts. This team is trash without him.
Option 3: We trade Mitchell and look like idiots as the team that chose the aging fool of a center who acted irresponsibly and stopped the NBA and will need a big contract next year and the team that gave up on a young star for him.
Option 4: Just trade them both and start over? I guess...

There is no win in this situation. This is **** ridiculous. Oh and BTW... can you imagine the fans reaction to Mitchell when he forces Rudy out of the team? This won't be pretty... I can see the arena booing him every time he gets the ball.

So which one do I choose? No idea... I'm gonna have to sleep on it and think about it a bit more... IMO they MUST try to get them on the same page when the quarantine is lifted. Try it, if it works, great... if not... we are ****.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#3 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:59 pm

Read on Twitter
?
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#4 » by babyjax13 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:30 pm

stitches wrote:
Read on Twitter
?


Sounds like Rudy is the one to go, then. GSW fans and...well, I think just me, have agreed on Rudy for Wiggins + 2020 GSW 1st + 2021 MIN 1st.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#5 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:32 pm

Read on Twitter


This seems like the Jazz are preparing the fanbase for Rudy trade/departure. Stuff like that don't leak usually unless someone wants them to leak.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#6 » by KqWIN » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:35 pm

stitches wrote:This team in its current iteration is done. I see no good exit out of this situation.

Option 1: We keep them both and we have a team where one of our stars can't stand the other one and is likely to bolt the first chance he gets.
Option 2: We trade our best player Gobert for peanuts. This team is trash without him.
Option 3: We trade Mitchell and look like idiots as the team that chose the aging fool of a center who acted irresponsibly and stopped the NBA and will need a big contract next year and the team that gave up on a young star for him.
Option 4: Just trade them both and start over? I guess...

There is no win in this situation. This is **** ridiculous. Oh and BTW... can you imagine the fans reaction to Mitchell when he forces Rudy out of the team? This won't be pretty... I can see the arena booing him every time he gets the ball.

So which one do I choose? No idea... I'm gonna have to sleep on it and think about it a bit more... IMO they MUST try to get them on the same page when the quarantine is lifted. Try it, if it works, great... if not... we are ****.


It's really hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel here. Even if none of this happened and they were best buds...the franchise already mortgaged the future for Mike Conley. It was a big time failure before Covid.

The whole Gobert vs Mitchell value dynamic is so out of whack already. Like you said, we'd only get peanuts for Gobert. We'll be trash without him. Anytime he's been injured, the team was trash. Anytime his play has slipped, the team was trash.

On the other side you have Mitchell. His ability is probably overvalued compared to his actual production and impact. But he's by far the most famous player on the Jazz. Let's not kid ourselves either. Don is a NY kid who loves the spotlight. I don't care how much he says he likes it here, the chances of him not wanting to leave for brighter lights at some point was always very low.

If it came down to it...which it looks like it is...I guess I'm favoring trading Mitchell with the understanding that there is lots of potential for looking like a massive idiot.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#7 » by KqWIN » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:42 pm

stitches wrote:
Read on Twitter


This seems like the Jazz are preparing the fanbase for Rudy trade/departure. Stuff like that don't leak usually unless someone wants them to leak.


I could very easily see Rudy being the one who is pissed off. He was public enemy number one for a good 1-2 weeks. Not just in the basketball world, but the entire planet. Not saying that none of that heat was warranted...but his name will be forever be attached to this pandemic and the hate he's gotten (is getting) is too much. I remember him liking a bunch of tweets about how the Nets were able to keep most of their positive tests private and out of the media.

He was also outwardly pissed off before covid. He was not happy, not competing in the games. His teammates were outright refusing to pass him the ball, and he was refusing to play defense. Things were not good before covid. Covid accelerated the brewing tension that already existed.

Side note: It's time to stop calling the Jazz a tight lipped org. Everything they do gets leaked. Even the moves they don't make. It's possible that this is more obvious to me as someone who is always in the Jazz media bubble...but the reputation the Jazz have as a leak proof team has long been a thing of the past.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#8 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:49 pm

KqWIN wrote:It's really hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel here. Even if none of this happened and they were best buds...the franchise already mortgaged the future for Mike Conley. It was a big time failure before Covid.

The whole Gobert vs Mitchell value dynamic is so out of whack already. Like you said, we'd only get peanuts for Gobert. We'll be trash without him. Anytime he's been injured, the team was trash. Anytime his play has slipped, the team was trash.

On the other side you have Mitchell. His ability is probably overvalued compared to his actual production and impact. But he's by far the most famous player on the Jazz. Let's not kid ourselves either. Don is a NY kid who loves the spotlight. I don't care how much he says he likes it here, the chances of him not wanting to leave for brighter lights at some point was always very low.

If it came down to it...which it looks like it is...I guess I'm favoring trading Mitchell with the understanding that there is lots of potential for looking like a massive idiot.

The value dynamic is so weird... it has several levels too:
1. the better player will likely get you worse return
2. the better player is older and will likely not be better during most of the later years of his next contract.
3. both need to be paid but the better player is unrestricted and eligible for supermax after this year? OK... how much do you give him if you are keeping him?

I think no. 2 and 3. make me more receptive to the idea of trading Rudy. Especially if we can get something more than peanuts. Lets say something like... Dinwiddie and BKN 1st? Or... MIN 1st from GSW + Wiggins?
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#9 » by Tom349 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:52 pm

Ingles and Gobert taking the piss out of the article on twitter so either there is nothing in it or the leak is on Donovans end. Thus making Donovan the rotten egg and the guy to go but most likely there is nothing in it. The only other possible explanation is Rudy wants out for other reasons and the Jazz PR team are using this excuse rather than basketball reasons which makes more a easier trade.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#10 » by babyjax13 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:53 pm

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:It's really hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel here. Even if none of this happened and they were best buds...the franchise already mortgaged the future for Mike Conley. It was a big time failure before Covid.

The whole Gobert vs Mitchell value dynamic is so out of whack already. Like you said, we'd only get peanuts for Gobert. We'll be trash without him. Anytime he's been injured, the team was trash. Anytime his play has slipped, the team was trash.

On the other side you have Mitchell. His ability is probably overvalued compared to his actual production and impact. But he's by far the most famous player on the Jazz. Let's not kid ourselves either. Don is a NY kid who loves the spotlight. I don't care how much he says he likes it here, the chances of him not wanting to leave for brighter lights at some point was always very low.

If it came down to it...which it looks like it is...I guess I'm favoring trading Mitchell with the understanding that there is lots of potential for looking like a massive idiot.

The value dynamic is so weird... it has several levels too:
1. the better player will likely get you worse return
2. the better player is older and will likely not be better during most of the later years of his next contract.
3. both need to be paid but the better player is unrestricted and eligible for supermax after this year? OK... how much do you give him if you are keeping him?

I think no. 2 and 3. make me more receptive to the idea of trading Rudy. Especially if we can get something more than peanuts. Lets say something like... Dinwiddie and BKN 1st? Or... MIN 1st from GSW + Wiggins?


Brooklyn does not have their own pick (they do have one, but it is later). I really think the package is Wiggins + 2020 GSW 1st + 2021 MIN 1st, and I'm okay with that as the basis of a rebuild.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#11 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:56 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
Brooklyn does not have their own pick (they do have one, but it is later). I really think the package is Wiggins + 2020 GSW 1st + 2021 MIN 1st, and I'm okay with that as the basis of a rebuild.

IMO you are not getting this for Rudy. You would be lucky to get the MIN pick.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#12 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:56 pm

This might be a blessing in disguise because this team isn't going anywhere. DLZ would never have had the stones to trade either one of them and we'd be stuck in playoff purgatory for the next 5-7 seasons. Retaining this above-mediocre team would have become unattainable very soon anyway with Gobert's supermax and DM's max + all the other large contracts like Ingles, Bojan (until he's 34...) and Royce (and Clarkson?). At least now maybe DLZ will be forced to act.

As to who should we trade, I'd say Gobert. We simply can't afford paying him the supermax and he's not worth it, with all due respect. It'll be one of the biggest contracts in the history of the league if not the largest at the time of its signing. And then there are his shortcomings which have already been discussed plenty, and while he'll be worth plenty of regular season wins, in a playoff series opposing teams find ways to neutralize him.

Do we suck without him? Absolutely. Are we great with him? No, we're above-average as a team even if he makes us a top defensive team. Trade him for what we can, and build around DM. We'll suck for a few years, but we'll have him under control for the next 5 or so, so we'll have enough time to find out what fits around him and adjust to the direction the league is going, and maybe pick up a few assets through the lottery.

Having said all that, this is a cluster of many pucks.
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While I can't blame the Jazz for not trading either one before (never expected them to be this bold), this is exactly the lack of daring and assertiveness that keeps on biting the Jazz time and again. No, they couldn't see this rift coming (I'm guessing. Still don't know how this started or what it is about), but this core wasn't going anywhere and it wasn't hard to see. It could be a nice team, sure, but not a contender, and that was good enough for the Jazz, so they kept riding it. They would never have blown it up unless they had to. Most of our significant assets spent, huge payroll in the offing, value of players diminishing, and now, as stitches described, we're going to be kicking ourselves no matter what we do. Gobert is entering his last year of his contract and due a supermax, so there will be less takers and lower returns. And with the feud going on, the Jazz could really get squeezed regardless of who they trade.

I suppose, if the Jazz really wanted to stay the course and change as little as possible, they could try to do Gobert-Adams trade, since they are both under similar contracts. Not if it makes sense for OKC or not.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#13 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Gobert for Steven Adams works straight-up and keeps us about the same, which is what the Jazz likes. They have similar deals too. Maybe one team adds some filler to make it more enticing.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5ur2no2
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#14 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:08 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Gobert for Steven Adams works straight-up and keeps us about the same, which is what the Jazz likes. They have similar deals too. Maybe one team adds some filler to make it more enticing.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5ur2no2

I don't want that deal. If we are dealing Rudy, give me something for the future.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#15 » by KqWIN » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:09 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Gobert for Steven Adams works straight-up and keeps us about the same, which is what the Jazz likes. They have similar deals too. Maybe one team adds some filler to make it more enticing.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5ur2no2


Don't think we are a playoff team with Adams instead of Gobert. There's a huge gap between those two. Even on offense alone, Gobert is much better.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#16 » by stitches » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:11 pm

KqWIN wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:Gobert for Steven Adams works straight-up and keeps us about the same, which is what the Jazz likes. They have similar deals too. Maybe one team adds some filler to make it more enticing.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5ur2no2


Don't think we are a playoff team with Adams instead of Gobert. There's a huge gap between those two. Even on offense alone, Gobert is much better.

I agree. Adams is worse than Favors, let alone comparing him to Gobert. It's a no contest in any aspect of the game. Offense, defense... not close.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#17 » by KqWIN » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:15 pm

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:It's really hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel here. Even if none of this happened and they were best buds...the franchise already mortgaged the future for Mike Conley. It was a big time failure before Covid.

The whole Gobert vs Mitchell value dynamic is so out of whack already. Like you said, we'd only get peanuts for Gobert. We'll be trash without him. Anytime he's been injured, the team was trash. Anytime his play has slipped, the team was trash.

On the other side you have Mitchell. His ability is probably overvalued compared to his actual production and impact. But he's by far the most famous player on the Jazz. Let's not kid ourselves either. Don is a NY kid who loves the spotlight. I don't care how much he says he likes it here, the chances of him not wanting to leave for brighter lights at some point was always very low.

If it came down to it...which it looks like it is...I guess I'm favoring trading Mitchell with the understanding that there is lots of potential for looking like a massive idiot.

The value dynamic is so weird... it has several levels too:
1. the better player will likely get you worse return
2. the better player is older and will likely not be better during most of the later years of his next contract.
3. both need to be paid but the better player is unrestricted and eligible for supermax after this year? OK... how much do you give him if you are keeping him?

I think no. 2 and 3. make me more receptive to the idea of trading Rudy. Especially if we can get something more than peanuts. Lets say something like... Dinwiddie and BKN 1st? Or... MIN 1st from GSW + Wiggins?


The likelihood of them staying, and what it would take, also complicates things. I'm fairly confident Rudy would resign, but the cost of his contract would be immense. Mitchell is team controlled, but I also have high confidence he will seek brighter lights. You would get something in a trade for him if he demands out, however.

A deal I find interesting is Lavert+Allen for Gobert. I'm relatively low on both the BKN players, but if we trade Gobert we have to go younger and not think about trying to compete because we can't.

If we trade Mitchell...I think we can maybe still think about remaining a good team. Mitchell could be the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Brad Beal.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#18 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:18 pm

stitches wrote:I don't want that deal. If we are dealing Rudy, give me something for the future.


KqWIN wrote:Don't think we are a playoff team with Adams instead of Gobert. There's a huge gap between those two. Even on offense alone, Gobert is much better.


Cool, then blow it all up. This is the only simple deal I can think of (granted, haven't spent much time thinking on it yet) that kinda gives the Jazz what it already has and a somewhat similar player. BTW, Steven Adams is good. And he has more offensive moves than Gobert. They are actually quite close when normalizing their minutes (per 36) and Adams is better passer and ball mover, which is something we all say is lacking with this team (not that Gobert was the problem).

Anyway, if not this, I can't see us trading for another player that gives us a good enough defense to stay competitive. So by all means, blow it up.
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#19 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:25 pm

Btw, I'd add another option in the poll for 'both.'
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Re: The Athletic: one of Rudy or Donovan may be traded 

Post#20 » by KqWIN » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:I don't want that deal. If we are dealing Rudy, give me something for the future.


KqWIN wrote:Don't think we are a playoff team with Adams instead of Gobert. There's a huge gap between those two. Even on offense alone, Gobert is much better.


Cool, then blow it all up. This is the only simple deal I can think of (granted, haven't spent much time thinking on it yet) that kinda gives the Jazz what it already has and a somewhat similar player. BTW, Steven Adams is good. And he has more offensive moves than Gobert. They are actually quite close when normalizing their minutes (per 36) and Adams is better passer and ball mover, which is something we all say is lacking with this team (not that Gobert was the problem).

Anyway, if not this, I can't see us trading for another player that gives us a good enough defense to stay competitive. So by all means, blow it up.


Steven Adams may have more "moves", but he's significantly less efficient. Don't really care if a guy has more moves if he's a lot worse.

Blowing it up at least gives fans false hope...because if you suck you can dream about better days. FWIW....blowing it up does not mean you have to trade Mitchell to be a bad team. He's not what makes the Jazz good. We are already tanking level team if Gobert has an off game. You have to trade Mitchell at some point because he will, but I would not trade him now. This draft is horrible.

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