Freeish

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Freeish 

Post#1 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:45 am

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Re: Freeish 

Post#2 » by KqWIN » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:03 pm

Made a reference to this in the other thread. This is one of the sad, uncomfortable realities of sports. We have black athletes playing sports to entertain predominately white audiences. Not everyone who cheers for them sees them as human beings first. Another sad reality is that because this a sports story, the focus will be on Mitchell leaving, and not that people often treat black athletes as sub-human.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#3 » by stitches » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:00 pm

Yep, since I've never been to Utah I had no idea just how bad the situation is. I guess you cannot escape the historical and religious backdrop this easily. This attitude is incredibly toxic and it's not hard to understand all the players who've shared they have experienced racism in Utah. What a shame. I guess it's not a surprise that we have this hard of a time attracting players or keeping our own.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#4 » by sipclip » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:12 pm

stitches wrote:Yep, since I've never been to Utah I had no idea just how bad the situation is. I guess you cannot escape the historical and religious backdrop this easily. This attitude is incredibly toxic and it's not hard to understand all the players who've shared they have experienced racism in Utah. What a shame. I guess it's not a surprise that we have this hard of a time attracting players or keeping our own.


This really is not the case Stitches. I have plenty of black friends that have lived here and other places around the country and they say this is the least racist environment they have been to. Obviously there are a few bad apples everywhere but this state has become extremely inclusive over the last 30 years. Particularly Salt Lake County.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#5 » by KqWIN » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:05 pm

This is definitely an issue in all of America, not just Utah. I do think Americans have an attitude of pointing the finger to avoid difficult and uncomfortable realities with themselves. For example, lets call out Utah as racist because if they are the most racist, it doesn't make me confront the racism in my immediate surroundings. It's very easy for people to hide behind more overt and direct racism.

But that doesn't absolve Utah. Racism is a critical issue that is worse in Utah because of the conservative overtones and lack of diversity. The influence the church has on the state culture and values is as strong as ever. Salt Lake County itself is (relatively) diverse compared to the rest of the state and is a liberal area, but Salt Lake County does not represent Utah or the Jazz fan base as a whole.

Above all else, you have to listen to the players. If players continue to come out and talk about their poor experiences in Utah, I'm going to believe them. What authority do I have to tell them that they're wrong, and it's actually not that bad? Just imagine how frustrating that must be. It doesn't matter how inclusive, diverse, ect we think Salt Lake City is if these players, who are human beings first, continue to have these negative experiences.

Pointing out that it's just a few bad apples, not as bad as somewhere else, or any other reason to suggest that it's not my problem or isn't a problem at all is very toxic. We have a problem here in Utah. It doesn't really matter if it's actually worse or the same as other places if refuse to acknowledge it.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#6 » by stitches » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:03 pm

Yeah, I'm with KqWIN here. As I said nothing of this is my personal experience since I've never been in Utah, but Mitchell's social media accounts have been a cesspool of willful ignorace in the better cases and straight up racism in other cases every time he posts anything 'political'... if you consider anti-racism topics 'political'. At some point it doesn't really matter what I or anyone here says though. It matters how the players are perceiving what is happening and tons of players are on the record about questionable attitude and behavior by Utah fans. And here's precisely what Mitchell is thinking:
Read on Twitter


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You don't have to guess if it's affecting him. BTW he removed his Jazz-related pictures in his profile pics on social media after those. Now we can be defensive about it and try to excuse it or minimize or deflect, or we can try to address it in some way.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#7 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:53 pm

KqWIN wrote:Made a reference to this in the other thread. This is one of the sad, uncomfortable realities of sports. We have black athletes playing sports to entertain predominately white audiences. Not everyone who cheers for them sees them as human beings first. Another sad reality is that because this a sports story, the focus will be on Mitchell leaving, and not that people often treat black athletes as sub-human.

Sorry, didn't see your other post.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#8 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:17 pm

I grew up in the SL valley. I went to a high school where there were a few black kids that attended over the 4 years. Two of them transferred to what was then South High to be at a more diverse school. I guarantee that there were high schools that had fewer, if any, black kids attending and probably fewer hispanic, pacific islander and other minorities. Still, my high school was 80-90% white.

That being said, I don't think it is a church thing as much of a political thing or an ignorance thing. My experience is that people went out of their way to treat particularly the black kids well, perhaps even cringingly so at times, with the "brother" this, trying to be cool with handshakes, and all of that. I think that was, at least in part, to distance the past religious beliefs, although it was also perhaps just the unfamiliarity of different races and cultures. My understanding is that the majority of responders to Mitchell's tweet were supportive, although some of them might have said cringy things in response due to their ignorance. Others, unfortunately, were not supportive and showed their racist bias or at best their ignorance.

I have good friends in Utah who espouse the "All Lives Matter" mantra. I blame that on political views. I think that they are well intentioned, believing that everyone should be treated equally. Unfortunately, they are ignorant of the fact that some races, in this case black people, are simply not treated equally. Sure, you can point to progress over time, and sure you can point to a wildly popular and rich sports figure and wonder what they have to complain about as you would love to be in their shoes. However, if you are white, as I am, you just can't completely relate fully IMHO.

For example, if your girlfriend was driving you around and a cop pulled her over for a burned out tail light, it would never, ever, ever result in your shooting when you did nothing whatsoever to instigate it. If you were driving with your grandmother, you would never get pulled over based on suspicious behavior of simply being in the car with an older white woman. You would rarely, if ever, get pulled over for playing your music, which might be different than the cultural norm of the area. You would never call the cops for a crime committed against you, and have the police immediately suspect you as the criminal on arriving at the scene, perhaps resulting in you being handcuffed at first, and maybe even risking your life for even calling the cops in the first place due to their knee-jerk racist tendencies/fears. There are so many other examples that I could list that aren't from decades ago, but the past few years. Unfortunately, being a well educated or financially successful black person does not exempt you from this. There are many instances of NBA players who have been treated badly by the cops, merely by being a bystander or just "looking suspicious" until the cops learn who they are.

I hope that the people who responded negatively to Mitchell are just ignorant and not racist and do not represent more than just a small minority of Utahns or Jazz fans. Of course, racism is not a Utah thing or even a United States thing. I feel for the futbol/soccer players who are black and play in Europe. There is a disturbing level of racism, sometimes more overt than the U.S, there too. I do hope that recent events brings even more change at a more rapid pace.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#9 » by KqWIN » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:50 pm

Imo, ignorance is at the core of this issue and passing it off as so doesn't really help things. If you're downplaying the issue, that is the issue. Seriously, think of any time you've had a complaint about something. It could be something as simple as the customer service from your cable company, or something more serious like your kid getting bullied. Now imaging voicing your concerns and being met with, "it's not so bad", "that's not how it normally goes", "you're lucky to be here anyways", "it's bad everywhere, not just here". That is beyond frustrating no matter what the problem is, and the problem we're talking about here is the experience of being a person of color in our society.

At some point you've just got to listen and stop with the downplaying, deflecting, and excuses.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#10 » by Catchall » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:53 pm

How many of Mitchell's followers on Twitter and Instagram do you think are actually in Utah? I always got the feeling that Mitchell has been treated very respectfully by people in Utah.

I think the issue with Utahns is unfamiliarity with other cultures, tbh. I grew up in Salt Lake City, and now that I think of it, I don't think I met a black person until I was about 7 years old. I didn't meet a Japanese person until I was 8. I didn't meet a Chinese person until I was 12. There just weren't a lot of people of color on the east side of Salt Lake City, so people in my situation would only rarely encounter them. The different racial groups in Utah also tend to stick to their own and be a bit insular, I've found.

Most people in Utah I've known are genuinely nice people. The issue of police brutality against black people, I'd imagine, is pretty rare in Utah, so I think people in Utah are generally inexperienced with it. This isn't to make an excuse for people. I think it's just ignorance.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#11 » by stitches » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:15 am

Catchall wrote:How many of Mitchell's followers on Twitter and Instagram do you think are actually in Utah? I always got the feeling that Mitchell has been treated very respectfully by people in Utah.

I think the issue with Utahns is unfamiliarity with other cultures, tbh. I grew up in Salt Lake City, and now that I think of it, I don't think I met a black person until I was about 7 years old. I didn't meet a Japanese person until I was 8. I didn't meet a Chinese person until I was 12. There just weren't a lot of people of color on the east side of Salt Lake City, so people in my situation would only rarely encounter them. The different racial groups in Utah also tend to stick to their own and be a bit insular, I've found.

Most people in Utah I've known are genuinely nice people. The issue of police brutality against black people, I'd imagine, is pretty rare in Utah, so I think people in Utah are generally inexperienced with it. This isn't to make an excuse for people. I think it's just ignorance.

Rayjon Tucker posted something about being racially profiled by police in Utah a month or two ago(before the George Floyd murder) but later deleted it. I have no proof for that but if I had to guess he was told by the Jazz to delete it as not to inflame relationship with police.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#12 » by stitches » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:10 am

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Re: Freeish 

Post#13 » by BarneyGumble » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:18 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:I grew up in the SL valley. I went to a high school where there were a few black kids that attended over the 4 years. Two of them transferred to what was then South High to be at a more diverse school. I guarantee that there were high schools that had fewer, if any, black kids attending and probably fewer hispanic, pacific islander and other minorities. Still, my high school was 80-90% white.

That being said, I don't think it is a church thing as much of a political thing or an ignorance thing. My experience is that people went out of their way to treat particularly the black kids well, perhaps even cringingly so at times, with the "brother" this, trying to be cool with handshakes, and all of that. I think that was, at least in part, to distance the past religious beliefs, although it was also perhaps just the unfamiliarity of different races and cultures. My understanding is that the majority of responders to Mitchell's tweet were supportive, although some of them might have said cringy things in response due to their ignorance. Others, unfortunately, were not supportive and showed their racist bias or at best their ignorance.

I have good friends in Utah who espouse the "All Lives Matter" mantra. I blame that on political views. I think that they are well intentioned, believing that everyone should be treated equally. Unfortunately, they are ignorant of the fact that some races, in this case black people, are simply not treated equally. Sure, you can point to progress over time, and sure you can point to a wildly popular and rich sports figure and wonder what they have to complain about as you would love to be in their shoes. However, if you are white, as I am, you just can't completely relate fully IMHO.

For example, if your girlfriend was driving you around and a cop pulled her over for a burned out tail light, it would never, ever, ever result in your shooting when you did nothing whatsoever to instigate it. If you were driving with your grandmother, you would never get pulled over based on suspicious behavior of simply being in the car with an older white woman. You would rarely, if ever, get pulled over for playing your music, which might be different than the cultural norm of the area. You would never call the cops for a crime committed against you, and have the police immediately suspect you as the criminal on arriving at the scene, perhaps resulting in you being handcuffed at first, and maybe even risking your life for even calling the cops in the first place due to their knee-jerk racist tendencies/fears. There are so many other examples that I could list that aren't from decades ago, but the past few years. Unfortunately, being a well educated or financially successful black person does not exempt you from this. There are many instances of NBA players who have been treated badly by the cops, merely by being a bystander or just "looking suspicious" until the cops learn who they are.

I hope that the people who responded negatively to Mitchell are just ignorant and not racist and do not represent more than just a small minority of Utahns or Jazz fans. Of course, racism is not a Utah thing or even a United States thing. I feel for the futbol/soccer players who are black and play in Europe. There is a disturbing level of racism, sometimes more overt than the U.S, there too. I do hope that recent events brings even more change at a more rapid pace.


I dont mean to derail this thread. I just wanted to point out that as recently as 50 years ago it was accepted and communicated Mormon doctrine straight from the Apostles of the time that black people were inferior in the premortal existence. The faith's canonized scriptures have similar doctrines taught in them. I think the Church is a big reason why people outside of Utah see Utah as a place where people of color are discriminated against.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#14 » by babyjax13 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:00 pm

I live in Alabama now, which has a reputation (deserved) of racism. I honestly don't see a huge difference in attitudes between a town like Jasper (Alabama), and almost any Utah city outside of Salt Lake, West Valley, and Magna. Once you leave those little pockets, it gets a lot more conservative, and a lot more racist. Heck, as an openly gay person, I feel much safer in Alabama than I do in Provo, and I certainly wouldn't want to take my boyfriend (who is black) there.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#15 » by Catchall » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:53 am

babyjax13 wrote:I live in Alabama now, which has a reputation (deserved) of racism. I honestly don't see a huge difference in attitudes between a town like Jasper, and almost any Utah city outside of Salt Lake, West Valley, and Magna. Once you leave those little pockets, it gets a lot more conservative, and a lot more racist. Heck, as an openly gay person, I feel much safer in Alabama than I do in Provo, and I certainly wouldn't want to take my boyfriend (who is black) there.


I don't know much about the rural areas, or areas outside of Salt Lake City metro. Maybe I'm out of touch. A black friend of mine once said that she didn't feel comfortable in Utah, but she didn't tell me much about her experience.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#16 » by Catchall » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:25 am

I'm going to be honest here. Two weeks ago, we were outraged at continued instances of police brutality against black people. Everyone agrees that this is unacceptable, criminal behavior on the part of police officers.

And now, two weeks later, it seems that cultural marxists and 'antifa' mobs want to tear down statues all over the country, including figures like Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and Theodore Roosevelt.

Did I miss something?
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Re: Freeish 

Post#17 » by vryadli » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:36 am

Catchall wrote:I'm going to be honest here. Two weeks ago, we were outraged at continued instances of police brutality against black people. Everyone agrees that this is unacceptable, criminal behavior on the part of police officers.

And now, two weeks later, it seems that cultural marxists and 'antifa' mobs want to tear down statues all over the country, including figures like Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and Theodore Roosevelt.

Did I miss something?


Can I ask how do you define "cultural marxists"?
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Re: Freeish 

Post#18 » by KDBG » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:16 pm

As a person of color, I can say I've definitely had my fair share of racist incidents in Utah (I've mostly lived in Utah County). But, this is more of a white person issue than a cultural one, pertaining to Utah. We just have a state that's really f***ing white. Nothing wrong with that per se, but the more white people there are, the more likely there are going to be some racist f***s in there.

Donovan seemed really hurt, and pissed. I would too. He loves Utah, and probably feels backstabbed by what he considers family. But to think this only happens in Utah is crazy. It's happening everywhere. People were telling stories on reddit of places like the Bay Area that had the same sh** going on. If Donovan leaves at the end of his second contract, it won't be for the minority of racist fans. It'll be cause NYC is calling, and wants his brand to become global in his hometown, which I totally understand.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#19 » by Catchall » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:08 pm

vryadli wrote:
Catchall wrote:I'm going to be honest here. Two weeks ago, we were outraged at continued instances of police brutality against black people. Everyone agrees that this is unacceptable, criminal behavior on the part of police officers.

And now, two weeks later, it seems that cultural marxists and 'antifa' mobs want to tear down statues all over the country, including figures like Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and Theodore Roosevelt.

Did I miss something?


Can I ask how do you define "cultural marxists"?


Marxism/Leninism advocates for destroying traditional culture, destroying national patriotism, destroying the family unit, destroying religion, and eliminating private property--all things that would stand in the way of the populace becoming loyal first and foremost to a central, communist state. Mobs and rioters, who are comprised of angry and disenfranchised members of the underclasses, serve as 'useful idiots' who are employed to carry out the destruction of the status quo, while being led by a class of so-called "progressive" intellectuals.

Spoiler alert: It doesn't work, but it does incite a lot of violence.

What's taking place in Seattle isn't about protecting black people from incompetent police. It's about lashing out at the establishment and trying to remove law and order. Antifa has been around for more than 30 years all over the world. They're basically a mob of angry anarchists who wear black and like to smash things. They're using the anger and the protests against police brutality as cover to attack the monuments.
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Re: Freeish 

Post#20 » by Inigo Montoya » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:20 pm

I let this thread unfold because of the particular Utah angle, because there probably isn't anywhere else to discuss this on RealGM. While I want to commend everyone for conducting a very respectful debate (seriously, much respect), I feel this thread is veering into a more general political discussion, and as such, there is a better place to discuss the more general issues, which is the Current Affairs board.
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