Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2

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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#101 » by babyjax13 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 1:27 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
sipclip wrote:Blake Griffin is a non starter for me. I don't trust him to be healthy ever again. I think his career is basically a 12 point 7 rebound big for a few years and then out of the league because of his knees.

It is a valid concern, for sure. I just question how high the ceiling is with this team, even with Bogey back, and the possibility that it will be lower once Conley is gone.


The other problem is that realistically Detroit would rather have the 7th pick and Griffin than Harris, since either way they have to rebuild (and they already traded Harris). I'd rather cut Detroit out and get the better player (I think Harris was better two years ago than Griffin was, at the very least the difference was not night and day, because the Clippers still made the playoffs with Harris instead of Blake).
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#102 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Oct 2, 2020 7:24 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
sipclip wrote:Blake Griffin is a non starter for me. I don't trust him to be healthy ever again. I think his career is basically a 12 point 7 rebound big for a few years and then out of the league because of his knees.

It is a valid concern, for sure. I just question how high the ceiling is with this team, even with Bogey back, and the possibility that it will be lower once Conley is gone.


The other problem is that realistically Detroit would rather have the 7th pick and Griffin than Harris, since either way they have to rebuild (and they already traded Harris). I'd rather cut Detroit out and get the better player (I think Harris was better two years ago than Griffin was, at the very least the difference was not night and day, because the Clippers still made the playoffs with Harris instead of Blake).

You might be right. However, this is a down draft and that 7th pick is probably on par with a later lottery pick, and how many of those flame out? If Griffin returns to form, they have him and perhaps a resigned Woods with Rose and would most likely make the playoffs in the Leastern Conference. If Griffin doesn't return to form, then they have to decide whether to go the tank route and not resign Woods or other good players in their late 20s (that decision appears to have already been made as they didn't trade Woods this past season). On the other hand, if the Pistons made this trade, they have Tobias, Woods, Rose and money to sign free agents, and could be a playoff team for years to come.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#103 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Oct 2, 2020 8:10 pm

Will Detroit even take Harris again? They had him once already and they traded him. Their roster and contract situation suggests they are rebuilding and are getting rid of long-term contracts, and Griffin's contract is at least 2 years shorter than Harris'.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#104 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Oct 2, 2020 8:27 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Will Detroit even take Harris again? They had him once already and they traded him. Their roster and contract situation suggests they are rebuilding and are getting rid of long-term contracts, and Griffin's contract is at least 2 years shorter than Harris'.

Harris was their upcoming star when they traded him for a much bigger star in Griffin. It's not like they didn't like him or there was animosity or anything like that.

What are the odds this years' #7 pick becomes as good as Tobias? If so, how long will it take? Taking it further, how likely is it that the #23 in this draft and/or Philly's next FRP (alone or in combination) be as valuable than this year's #7 pick when all is said and done?

(Edit: I'll add that there are rumors that the Pistons trade #7 for the Celtics #14, #26 and either #30 or #47, as the new Pistons GM doesn't view a huge difference between #7 pick and #14 pick).
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#105 » by KqWIN » Fri Oct 2, 2020 9:53 pm

A tanking/rebuilding team is not trading their draft pick. The draft is the only thing that gives the franchise/fans hope. Sure, it's false hope, but that pick is the only thing they can have hope for. The NBA sells hope.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#106 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Oct 2, 2020 10:32 pm

KqWIN wrote:A tanking/rebuilding team is not trading their draft pick. The draft is the only thing that gives the franchise/fans hope. Sure, it's false hope, but that pick is the only thing they can have hope for. The NBA sells hope.

Haha, so true!

However, this is how the scenario could set up with the trade from the Pistons point of view:

With the trade, the Pistons have $40M in cap space (2nd largest in NBA, by far).
Sign VanFleet (say $15M/yr)
Resign Woods (say $12M/yr)
Still have $13M in cap space alone (or perhaps you could use up to $25M cap space and then resign Woods) for other free agents.
The Pistons would also have cap space in 2021 to further round out team.

This would get you a line up next season of:
VanFleet/Rose (use as trade bait)
Kennard
FA/Snell
Tobias
Woods
With new free agents, #23 pick and remaining players as bench.
That is a playoff team in the East, which sells tickets and merch and also buys some hope, which is what the owner probably wants from his new GM. The three main players are locked up for the next 4 years, which could be 4 years of playoff basketball which means job security for the new GM.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#107 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Oct 2, 2020 11:23 pm

KqWIN wrote:A tanking/rebuilding team is not trading their draft pick. The draft is the only thing that gives the franchise/fans hope. Sure, it's false hope, but that pick is the only thing they can have hope for. The NBA sells hope.

Another thing, the fact that the Pistons didn't trade Rose or Wood this past season implies that they do not view themselves as rebuilding but rather still in contention for the playoffs, which they value more than a tear down and rebuild.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#108 » by babyjax13 » Mon Oct 5, 2020 4:45 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:A tanking/rebuilding team is not trading their draft pick. The draft is the only thing that gives the franchise/fans hope. Sure, it's false hope, but that pick is the only thing they can have hope for. The NBA sells hope.

Another thing, the fact that the Pistons didn't trade Rose or Wood this past season implies that they do not view themselves as rebuilding but rather still in contention for the playoffs, which they value more than a tear down and rebuild.


Rose asked not to be traded because of Detroit's medical staff, and Wood is young. They know they suck, they know they aren't a playoff team, they were just (a) doing a favor to a player that keeps them compelling on the court, and (b) retaining a young player that can be a part of the core in the future.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#109 » by SoCalJazzFan » Mon Oct 5, 2020 5:02 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:A tanking/rebuilding team is not trading their draft pick. The draft is the only thing that gives the franchise/fans hope. Sure, it's false hope, but that pick is the only thing they can have hope for. The NBA sells hope.

Another thing, the fact that the Pistons didn't trade Rose or Wood this past season implies that they do not view themselves as rebuilding but rather still in contention for the playoffs, which they value more than a tear down and rebuild.


Rose asked not to be traded because of Detroit's medical staff, and Wood is young. They know they suck, they know they aren't a playoff team, they were just (a) doing a favor to a player that keeps them compelling on the court, and (b) retaining a young player that can be a part of the core in the future.

Well the Pistons rebuild is being based on the #7 pick in a bad draft, and Rose is a good player and Griffin, even when playing injured for 18 games last season was decent (15.5pts, 4.7rbs, 3.3 ast). If he returns anywhere near to form, they are in the playoff race in the East. Add to that Woods becoming a good player, which will increase their win total. All of this hampers their rebuild.

In order to truly rebuild, they need to dump Rose for a pick or young player. They need to hope that Griffin remains near worthless as a player as there are very few options to trade him. They also need to spend their $40M of cap space on players that won't impact their ability to tank and get a good pick in 2021. They then need to hope that the 2020 pick and 2021 pick and Woods end up being a winning core to take them to the playoffs every year.

Or, alternatively, they consider a trade such as I have proposed and reload instead of rebuild.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#110 » by babyjax13 » Mon Oct 5, 2020 6:07 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:Another thing, the fact that the Pistons didn't trade Rose or Wood this past season implies that they do not view themselves as rebuilding but rather still in contention for the playoffs, which they value more than a tear down and rebuild.


Rose asked not to be traded because of Detroit's medical staff, and Wood is young. They know they suck, they know they aren't a playoff team, they were just (a) doing a favor to a player that keeps them compelling on the court, and (b) retaining a young player that can be a part of the core in the future.

Well the Pistons rebuild is being based on the #7 pick in a bad draft, and Rose is a good player and Griffin, even when playing injured for 18 games last season was decent (15.5pts, 4.7rbs, 3.3 ast). If he returns anywhere near to form, they are in the playoff race in the East. Add to that Woods becoming a good player, which will increase their win total. All of this hampers their rebuild.

In order to truly rebuild, they need to dump Rose for a pick or young player. They need to hope that Griffin remains near worthless as a player as there are very few options to trade him. They also need to spend their $40M of cap space on players that won't impact their ability to tank and get a good pick in 2021. They then need to hope that the 2020 pick and 2021 pick and Woods end up being a winning core to take them to the playoffs every year.

Or, alternatively, they consider a trade such as I have proposed and reload instead of rebuild.


I don't think you realize how horrid they are.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#111 » by KqWIN » Mon Oct 5, 2020 8:13 pm

Even if the Pistons have no interest in tanking, to the point that they want to trade their pick, they are not trading Blake in that scenario. This is a deadbeat trade where they are losing their pick and their franchise guy. Ask any Piston or general fan and they'll tell you that this concept doesn't make sense.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#112 » by SoCalJazzFan » Mon Oct 5, 2020 9:16 pm

KqWIN wrote:Even if the Pistons have no interest in tanking, to the point that they want to trade their pick, they are not trading Blake in that scenario. This is a deadbeat trade where they are losing their pick and their franchise guy. Ask any Piston or general fan and they'll tell you that this concept doesn't make sense.

How much is the #7 pick in THIS draft worth? If rumors are true, then it is worth #14, #26 and #30 picks in this draft. To get a healthy Harris locked in for 4 years, the #23 and a future 76ers pick is probably good comparative value when considering getting out from under Griffin's contract.

Griffin is either their franchise guy the next two years, or a $70M cheerleader on the bench. This is a big reason why this trade has any chance of happening.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#113 » by KqWIN » Mon Oct 5, 2020 9:45 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Even if the Pistons have no interest in tanking, to the point that they want to trade their pick, they are not trading Blake in that scenario. This is a deadbeat trade where they are losing their pick and their franchise guy. Ask any Piston or general fan and they'll tell you that this concept doesn't make sense.

How much is the #7 pick in THIS draft worth? If rumors are true, then it is worth #14, #26 and #30 picks in this draft. To get a healthy Harris locked in for 4 years, the #23 and a future 76ers pick is probably good comparative value when considering getting out from under Griffin's contract.

Griffin is either their franchise guy the next two years, or a $70M cheerleader on the bench. This is a big reason why this trade has any chance of happening.


Like I said, it’s worth everything to them. Whoever they draft, they think he’s going to be a superstar. People love the draft.

They probably think Blake is going to get back to form once he’s healthy too. That’s why they traded for Blake (ironically they traded Harris for Blake already).

Seriously, if you think this has a chance, send it out to a general audience. No trade make sense when you’re losing the biggest win now and future asset in the trade at the same time.

They sure as hell aren’t doing it for Tobias Harris who has a horrific contract himself.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#114 » by SoCalJazzFan » Tue Oct 6, 2020 5:06 pm

KqWIN wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Even if the Pistons have no interest in tanking, to the point that they want to trade their pick, they are not trading Blake in that scenario. This is a deadbeat trade where they are losing their pick and their franchise guy. Ask any Piston or general fan and they'll tell you that this concept doesn't make sense.

How much is the #7 pick in THIS draft worth? If rumors are true, then it is worth #14, #26 and #30 picks in this draft. To get a healthy Harris locked in for 4 years, the #23 and a future 76ers pick is probably good comparative value when considering getting out from under Griffin's contract.

Griffin is either their franchise guy the next two years, or a $70M cheerleader on the bench. This is a big reason why this trade has any chance of happening.


Like I said, it’s worth everything to them. Whoever they draft, they think he’s going to be a superstar. People love the draft.

They probably think Blake is going to get back to form once he’s healthy too. That’s why they traded for Blake (ironically they traded Harris for Blake already).

Seriously, if you think this has a chance, send it out to a general audience. No trade make sense when you’re losing the biggest win now and future asset in the trade at the same time.

They sure as hell aren’t doing it for Tobias Harris who has a horrific contract himself.

I did post it on the Trades and Transactions and interestingly, the 76ers fans hated it as they don't want to give up Harris and are blind to his non-fit with Embiid and Simmons or his bad contract; while the Pistons fans hate it as they overvalue the #7 pick (not surprisingly) and have the opposite view of the 76ers fans of Harris having a bad contract. Question is whether the front offices are able to look past the emotional aspects of the players and picks and see the benefits to their teams (its a win for DET and PHI, and a possible win for UTA).
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#115 » by Inigo Montoya » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:19 pm

The one thing about Harris is that he does not impact wins. Even when he was putting up career stats with the Clippers, they maintained the same win pace once he was gone. He does not impact wins with the Sixers too, imho, and has not helped them go further in the playoffs. He also didn't help the Pistons win the last time he was there. He puts up good stats but I come away very underwhelmed every time I see him play. I don't think there is much reason for any team to pay him that much, especially a team like the Pistons.

On a side note, strange how every team that gets rid of Jimmy Butler becomes worse (Bulls, Wolves, Sixers).
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#116 » by babyjax13 » Wed Oct 7, 2020 6:14 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:The one thing about Harris is that he does not impact wins. Even when he was putting up career stats with the Clippers, they maintained the same win pace once he was gone. He does not impact wins with the Sixers too, imho, and has not helped them go further in the playoffs. He also didn't help the Pistons win the last time he was there. He puts up good stats but I come away very underwhelmed every time I see him play. I don't think there is much reason for any team to pay him that much, especially a team like the Pistons.

On a side note, strange how every team that gets rid of Jimmy Butler becomes worse (Bulls, Wolves, Sixers).


Harris replaced Griffin and LAC did not get worse, Griffin replaced him, and Detroit did not get better. The Sixers are also not the best measuring stick, Brett Brown was one of the worst coaches in the league. His offensive impact cratered in Philly because of their system and personnel; he's not some transcendent star, but he is very good and would help us win. That being said, we can't handle the salary.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#117 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Oct 7, 2020 6:56 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:The one thing about Harris is that he does not impact wins. Even when he was putting up career stats with the Clippers, they maintained the same win pace once he was gone. He does not impact wins with the Sixers too, imho, and has not helped them go further in the playoffs. He also didn't help the Pistons win the last time he was there. He puts up good stats but I come away very underwhelmed every time I see him play. I don't think there is much reason for any team to pay him that much, especially a team like the Pistons.

On a side note, strange how every team that gets rid of Jimmy Butler becomes worse (Bulls, Wolves, Sixers).

In 2018/19 with the Clippers, his stat line was 20.9ppg/ 7.9 rbs/2.7ast. He is overpaid for sure, but he could certainly help the Pistons win, and they would be hard pressed to draft a player or sign a free agent that would be as productive (and they have the money to spend).

As BabyJax said, I wouldn't judge anything about the 76ers as being gospel over the past few years. They have been terribly managed and coached.

With respect to your Jimmy Butler statement, as fans our ears should perk up anytime a player is deemed a bad lockeroom guy or teammate, when his motivation is to be competitive and win (that includes Gobert right now).
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#118 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:05 am

As has already been mentioned, it is unlikely that the Jazz bring back Clarkson as he would likely eat up the space up to the luxury tax limit, or enough so to make acquiring other players difficult.

So, who would be a viable, perhaps even better, replacement? A familiar face, who was on a minimum contract this past season and could possibly be had for that or the BAE. Alec Burks! Here is how he stacked up against Clarkson this past season. https://stathead.com/tiny/l9dyn
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#119 » by SoCalJazzFan » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:15 am

Another guard I’d target is Shaquille Harrison is if the Bulls don’t resign him. Has great size, awesome defense and seems underrated.

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That is a bench with some balance and versatility and upgrade from last year. That could potentially be done with MLE for Favors, BAE for Burks and min for Shaq.
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Re: Future Free Agent Thread, Part 2 

Post#120 » by GobertReport » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:17 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:Another guard I’d target is Shaquille Harrison is if the Bulls don’t resign him. Has great size, awesome defense and seems underrated.

Shaq
Alec
Jingles
Niang/Brantley?
Favors/ Bradley
That is a bench with some balance and versatility and upgrade from last year. That could potentially be done with MLE for Favors, BAE for Burks and min for Shaq.


I would like Burks back, he and Clarkson as our 2 main bench guards is interesting.
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