Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#41 » by KqWIN » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:15 pm

Teams will tank for a decade to get a generational talent like Giannis, and very few actually get one. Once you have him, you have to be prepared to tank the future to win with him. If you aren't willing to push with Giannis, might as well not compete at all.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#42 » by stitches » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:44 pm

KqWIN wrote:Teams will tank for a decade to get a generational talent like Giannis, and very few actually get one. Once you have him, you have to be prepared to tank the future to win with him. If you aren't willing to push with Giannis, might as well not compete at all.

I agree, but damn that's incredibly steep price. IMO there is still room to question the whole management of that roster that lead to them having to give up that much in a last ditch effort to surround Giannis with well matching talent. They let Brogdon go who is similar player to Jrue(style of play, not quality)... I don't know. They were probably going to get better deal for someone like Jrue last year, when they weren't backed to the wall. In general, you are screwed if you are put in a position to prove to a superstar that you are serious about competing with them. So many teams have been left in ruins after similar moves... and very frequently they lose the superstar too(Cleveland with Lebron for example).
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#43 » by KqWIN » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:57 pm

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Teams will tank for a decade to get a generational talent like Giannis, and very few actually get one. Once you have him, you have to be prepared to tank the future to win with him. If you aren't willing to push with Giannis, might as well not compete at all.

I agree, but damn that's incredibly steep price. IMO there is still room to question the whole management of that roster that lead to them having to give up that much in a last ditch effort to surround Giannis with well matching talent. They let Brogdon go who is similar player to Jrue(style of play, not quality)... I don't know. They were probably going to get better deal for someone like Jrue last year, when they weren't backed to the wall. In general, you are screwed if you are put in a position to prove to a superstar that you are serious about competing with them. So many teams have been left in ruins after similar moves... and very frequently they lose the superstar too(Cleveland with Lebron for example).


They handled the Brogdon situation terribly. Maybe he wanted to leave anyways, but that was a clear mismanagement and a bit of arrogance/cheapness by the FO and ownership.

You can say you're screwed if you have to appease these guys, but the flipside to that is that you actually have Giannis or LeBron. If you have one of those guys, you can compete for the title even with a bad roster around them. Torching your future to win with one of these guys is infinitely better than tanking with the hope of getting a player like this IMO. Emotionally, it feels better to do the losing first and feel like you're going somewhere, but in actually it's not better than having a real shot at winning and then paying for it later.

You could tell me Giannis is guaranteed to leave, and I'd still say they have a better shot at winning the title than OKC and NOP combined in the next 10 years or so.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#44 » by sip » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:49 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
sip wrote:I guess I missed the part where Jrue became a superstar. Yeah he is a good player but 3 first and 2 pick swaps plus a solid player in Bledsoe for him seems crazy to me.

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On an expiring contract to boot! The Bucks did have to go all in to keep Giannis and go for a chip, though. If you think about it, it will end up being two players picked in the 20s. The pick swaps are probably meaningless. Bledsoe wasn't working and Hill is getting over the hill.
The picks and pick swaps don't even begin until 2024 so this sets up insanely well for the Pelicans. They already have a really solid young core and in a few years when they have the potential to be one of the better teams in the league they suddenly become flush with cheap assets with lots of value.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#45 » by SoCalJazzFan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:48 pm

sip wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
sip wrote:I guess I missed the part where Jrue became a superstar. Yeah he is a good player but 3 first and 2 pick swaps plus a solid player in Bledsoe for him seems crazy to me.

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On an expiring contract to boot! The Bucks did have to go all in to keep Giannis and go for a chip, though. If you think about it, it will end up being two players picked in the 20s. The pick swaps are probably meaningless. Bledsoe wasn't working and Hill is getting over the hill.
The picks and pick swaps don't even begin until 2024 so this sets up insanely well for the Pelicans. They already have a really solid young core and in a few years when they have the potential to be one of the better teams in the league they suddenly become flush with cheap assets with lots of value.

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I was under the impression it would be the next two first round picks and then pick swaps. I see now that it is 3 first round picks (unprotected) and the pick swaps clear out to 2027- yikes! For an expiring contract!
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#46 » by KqWIN » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:52 pm

I still want Otto Porter....

Conley+Davis for Porter+Sato? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#47 » by sip » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:54 pm

Sign me up.

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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#48 » by GobertReport » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:11 pm

You have to wonder with Jrue getting such a substantial amount and even Chris Paul as well what we could get out of Conley.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#49 » by SoCalJazzFan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:34 pm

GobertReport wrote:You have to wonder with Jrue getting such a substantial amount and even Chris Paul as well what we could get out of Conley.

We should. In 2018/19, he was arguably a top 5 or 6 PG of the entire league (which had Steph and Kyrie playing that year). He was #5 PER, #6 EWA, #6 VA, and #5 VORP of PGs, while averaging 21.1 pts/6.4 asts/ and 3.4 rbs per game.

However, everyone seems to have a short memory. He simply isn't a great fit next to Mitchell and the system the Jazz run and he is judged on this past year (just like CP3s value yo-yo'd tremendously over the year). Put him on the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons and he would go crazy again.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#50 » by KqWIN » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:43 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
GobertReport wrote:You have to wonder with Jrue getting such a substantial amount and even Chris Paul as well what we could get out of Conley.

We should. In 2018/19, he was arguably a top 5 or 6 PG of the entire league (which had Steph and Kyrie playing that year). He was #5 PER, #6 EWA, #6 VA, and #5 VORP of PGs, while averaging 21.1 pts/6.4 asts/ and 3.4 rbs per game.

However, everyone seems to have a short memory. He simply isn't a great fit next to Mitchell and the system the Jazz run and he is judged on this past year (just like CP3s value yo-yo'd tremendously over the year). Put him on the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons and he would go crazy again.


Eh...I think there were significant and noticeable drop offs in his ability that weren't system related. He could barely dribble and was throwing passes into the stands, his defense was a liability, and his patented floater game was awful. There's also nothing about the Jazz system that should give him issues. IMO, he was in a much better position to succeed in Utah than on a terrible Memphis team the year before. He just looked really old out there and things can drop off quick when you're a tiny PG.

He's still a good shooter and shot the ball really well in the bubble, but at age 33 I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone he's still a great player and will recover. CP3 is also old, but he was a top 10 player last year.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#51 » by babyjax13 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:50 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
GobertReport wrote:You have to wonder with Jrue getting such a substantial amount and even Chris Paul as well what we could get out of Conley.

We should. In 2018/19, he was arguably a top 5 or 6 PG of the entire league (which had Steph and Kyrie playing that year). He was #5 PER, #6 EWA, #6 VA, and #5 VORP of PGs, while averaging 21.1 pts/6.4 asts/ and 3.4 rbs per game.

However, everyone seems to have a short memory. He simply isn't a great fit next to Mitchell and the system the Jazz run and he is judged on this past year (just like CP3s value yo-yo'd tremendously over the year). Put him on the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons and he would go crazy again.


Everyone just knows how old he is. Sure, he could replicate that one more time (maybe), but it's not going to be long-term. Utah isn't getting significant assets for him.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#52 » by SoCalJazzFan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 pm

KqWIN wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
GobertReport wrote:You have to wonder with Jrue getting such a substantial amount and even Chris Paul as well what we could get out of Conley.

We should. In 2018/19, he was arguably a top 5 or 6 PG of the entire league (which had Steph and Kyrie playing that year). He was #5 PER, #6 EWA, #6 VA, and #5 VORP of PGs, while averaging 21.1 pts/6.4 asts/ and 3.4 rbs per game.

However, everyone seems to have a short memory. He simply isn't a great fit next to Mitchell and the system the Jazz run and he is judged on this past year (just like CP3s value yo-yo'd tremendously over the year). Put him on the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons and he would go crazy again.


Eh...I think there were significant and noticeable drop offs in his ability that weren't system related. He could barely dribble and was throwing passes into the stands, his defense was a liability, and his patented floater game was awful. There's also nothing about the Jazz system that should give him issues. IMO, he was in a much better position to succeed in Utah than on a terrible Memphis team the year before. He just looked really old out there and things can drop off quick when you're a tiny PG.

He's still a good shooter and shot the ball really well in the bubble, but at age 33 I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone he's still a great player and will recover. CP3 is also old, but he was a top 10 player last year.

I think we underestimate how difficult it is for a point guard to adapt to the Jazz system and particularly playing with Gobert. It took Rubio over half the season. Conley didn't get that luxury, but started to look good again in the bubble. I don't think Conley just became old a few months after having an awesome year in Memphis. If he were to be with a stretchy center and more of an open offense with cutters, etc. I think he would thrive again (at least this upcoming season, not long term as his age will increasingly impact that).

Unfortunately, we won't get back nearly what we paid for him, but I would like to see the Jazz take a swing on a player we do need for Conley (e.g. Griffin or maybe Otto).
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#53 » by KqWIN » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:07 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:We should. In 2018/19, he was arguably a top 5 or 6 PG of the entire league (which had Steph and Kyrie playing that year). He was #5 PER, #6 EWA, #6 VA, and #5 VORP of PGs, while averaging 21.1 pts/6.4 asts/ and 3.4 rbs per game.

However, everyone seems to have a short memory. He simply isn't a great fit next to Mitchell and the system the Jazz run and he is judged on this past year (just like CP3s value yo-yo'd tremendously over the year). Put him on the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons and he would go crazy again.


Eh...I think there were significant and noticeable drop offs in his ability that weren't system related. He could barely dribble and was throwing passes into the stands, his defense was a liability, and his patented floater game was awful. There's also nothing about the Jazz system that should give him issues. IMO, he was in a much better position to succeed in Utah than on a terrible Memphis team the year before. He just looked really old out there and things can drop off quick when you're a tiny PG.

He's still a good shooter and shot the ball really well in the bubble, but at age 33 I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone he's still a great player and will recover. CP3 is also old, but he was a top 10 player last year.

I think we underestimate how difficult it is for a point guard to adapt to the Jazz system and particularly playing with Gobert. It took Rubio over half the season. Conley didn't get that luxury, but started to look good again in the bubble. I don't think Conley just became old a few months after having an awesome year in Memphis. If he were to be with a stretchy center and more of an open offense with cutters, etc. I think he would thrive again (at least this upcoming season, not long term as his age will increasingly impact that).

Unfortunately, we won't get back nearly what we paid for him, but I would like to see the Jazz take a swing on a player we do need for Conley (e.g. Griffin or maybe Otto).


Rubio is a different case because he had to learn to play without the ball more. George Hill had no problems. Clarkson stepped in as a ballhandler and excelled right away. Hell, Mudiay was playing the best basketball of his career at one point. Conley had already played off the ball and he played fairly well off the ball for us throughout the season. His problem was that he was garbage when he had the ball. This was with a spaced floor and great PnR roll man in Rudy. Compared to playing with Memphis, this should have been heaven for him where he was playing with bad teammates or clogged paints in the Grit and Grind era.

There's no systematic change that made his ball handling worse, his floater terrible, his defense a liability, his shiftiness gone ect. It does seem odd that he got this much worse in one off season, and he was better at the end of the season, but maybe instead of asking how he aged so quickly we should be asking how he was able to keep it up for so long. If any other undersized, oft injured 33 PG had a major decline we wouldn't wonder why that happened.

Even if he is back in form, good luck bringing that to trade negotiations. NOP and OKC had leverage in their negotiations, UTA has negative leverage in any Conley trade talks.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#54 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:12 am

KqWIN wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
KqWIN wrote:

Rubio is a different case because he had to learn to play without the ball more. George Hill had no problems. Clarkson stepped in as a ballhandler and excelled right away. Hell, Mudiay was playing the best basketball of his career at one point. Conley had already played off the ball and he played fairly well off the ball for us throughout the season. His problem was that he was garbage when he had the ball. This was with a spaced floor and great PnR roll man in Rudy. Compared to playing with Memphis, this should have been heaven for him where he was playing with bad teammates or clogged paints in the Grit and Grind era.

There's no systematic change that made his ball handling worse, his floater terrible, his defense a liability, his shiftiness gone ect. It does seem odd that he got this much worse in one off season, and he was better at the end of the season, but maybe instead of asking how he aged so quickly we should be asking how he was able to keep it up for so long. If any other undersized, oft injured 33 PG had a major decline we wouldn't wonder why that happened.

Even if he is back in form, good luck bringing that to trade negotiations. NOP and OKC had leverage in their negotiations, UTA has negative leverage in any Conley trade talks.

Rubio's difficulty with playing with Gobert had absolutely nothing to do with him learning to play off ball. It took him a good 4 to 5 months to learn to play with Gobert.

I think that as fans we view George Hill better than he actually was, even though he did have a good year and was a good fit, as we had endured years and years of below average starting point guards after DWill left and his playing above average was so refreshing. He also didn't have to share the ball with Mitchell and the offense has evolved over time to increasingly make Gobert a part of it instead of merely being a defensive presence with put back dunks.

I'm not sure how Clarkson or Mudiay have anything to do with this conversation. How often did they play with all of the starters? How often with Mitchell and Gobert? Just Gobert? Not often. Mudiay was horrible this year. Clarkson had a career year as he was given the ultimate green light to take every shot imaginable, whether good or bad, on a 1 v 5 scenario with the bench unit, which played into his playground basketball style.

In 2018/19 a 33 yr old Chris Paul averaged about #10 for all PGs in PER, EWA, VA and VORP while attempting to play alongside Harden. The next year- a year older- with OKC and playing his normal on ball team leading style, he was #4 in these categories, and his value went from negative to positive on the trade market. So, who a player plays with and what system they run make no difference? Of course not. Nor does 5 months without a significant injury make a player old and feeble all of a sudden.

Unfortunately, I do agree with you that this will not translate over to the trade market, most likely, although I don't think that Conley has negative trade value, just not anywhere near the trade value that the Jazz paid for him.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#55 » by TO11 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:00 pm

Hayward opted out of his last year with Boston...I actually can't believe it. It feels like he gave Boston a get out of jail free card. Maybe there is another contract that is advantageous for him to sign. Personally I think he is still a great player, but IDK if he is gonna get 30 million or w/e he was set to earn this year from another team. Can someone explain this to me?
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#56 » by GobertReport » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:54 pm

TO11 wrote:Hayward opted out of his last year with Boston...I actually can't believe it. It feels like he gave Boston a get out of jail free card. Maybe there is another contract that is advantageous for him to sign. Personally I think he is still a great player, but IDK if he is gonna get 30 million or w/e he was set to earn this year from another team. Can someone explain this to me?


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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#57 » by MTJazzv3 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 am

Davis to NY and two 2023 2nd 's. He sure was sure expensive to get rid of!
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#58 » by DelaneyRudd » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:24 am

The second's have to have some sort of caveats, at least for one of them.
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#59 » by stitches » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:08 pm

More FO members leaving the Jazz staff:
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Re: Around the NBA, Season 2020-2021 

Post#60 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:13 pm

I don't know if all these people leaving the front office is good or bad. I mean, it's not like the front office was doing such a great job over the past few years.
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