Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread

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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#201 » by Crunch 99 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:43 am

tugs wrote:And is it just me but Niang got some springs in his legs the past couple of games? He's been handling the ball well and aggressive with his drives


At the risk of jinxing Niang for the playoffs, which is a whole another level of challenge, I agree with you.

Niang contributed to holding down the fort while Mitchell and Conley were out. He got nine starts where he averaged 12.1 ppg on very efficient 45.7%/48.2% shooting in 24.2 minutes of action. The Jazz went 6-3 in those games he got a start. He also stayed in front of people better than I expected. I wish he rebounded a bit better though.
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Re: Game 72: Utah Jazz (51-20) @ Sacramento Kings (31-40) 

Post#202 » by TNJazz » Tue May 18, 2021 12:27 pm

tugs wrote:And is it just me but Niang got some springs in his legs the past couple of games? He's been handling the ball well and aggressive with his drives


His stats back up his eye test results in games where he started while MC & DM were injured. I was most impressed with his defense, staying in front of his man, not something I thought was going to happen. I think the Jazz went 6-3 in the games he started and his points & shooting percentages were all improved. Another nice "discovery" result from the injuries protein of the season. his ability to shoot from deep will give the Jazz another weapon during the playoffs and I'm not as worried about him being a big liability on defense as I used to be.
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#203 » by TNJazz » Tue May 18, 2021 12:42 pm

wco81 wrote:Yeah I don't want the Warriors to face the Jazz but that seems a good probability.

I think the Jazz would handle the Warriors relatively easily if Mitchell and Conley are healthy and regain their season form.

In later rounds, better teams are going to force the Jazz role players to make shots. They obviously did during the season but playoffs can sometimes test role players who've had great seasons.

Then the other thing they have to fight is against bigger names and bigger market clubs, whether they will get any kind of level playing field officiating.


Let's hope Mitchell is able to return for the first round. I think Conley has shown he is ready and will be a significant contributor.

The role players are going to play a huge factor throughout the PO's. Favor's, and Niang are going to have to be at their best as well as O'Neal stepping up just a bit on offense, his defense will be at a high level, it's his offense that could make the difference. JC is playing out of his mind right now, if he keeps going off, then even a less than stellar DM will not be as much of an issue.

The fair treatment over the star's & big market teams preferential treatment may play a huge role. When your W's first became the powerhouse, prior to KD coming and riding their coattails, they weren't filled with "superstars". They became superstars with winning, so let's hope the Jazz can follow that formula. Mitchell, Gobert, and maybe Conley might become elevated through stellar play to superstar status the same way Steph, Thompson, and Green were by being unstoppable. Time will tell.
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#204 » by Crunch 99 » Tue May 18, 2021 9:00 pm

Defensive Player Ladder: Rudy Gobert finishes season on top
https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-final-edition-2021

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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#205 » by tugs » Tue May 18, 2021 11:26 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:
tugs wrote:And is it just me but Niang got some springs in his legs the past couple of games? He's been handling the ball well and aggressive with his drives


At the risk of jinxing Niang for the playoffs, which is a whole another level of challenge, I agree with you.

Niang contributed to holding down the fort while Mitchell and Conley were out. He got nine starts where he averaged 12.1 ppg on very efficient 45.7%/48.2% shooting in 24.2 minutes of action. The Jazz went 6-3 in those games he got a start. He also stayed in front of people better than I expected. I wish he rebounded a bit better though.
Been contemplating for some time now if he deserves to start over Royce. Problem is, Bojan will be exposed to guard quicker 3s, unless Bojan stays with PFs and Niang guards SFs, which I believe is worse. I wish someone can give numbers when having a frontcourt of Gobert, Royce, and Niang, how effective they are together. I think 2 complementary wings fit well with ball dominant Donovan and Mike

What happens with Bojan though? Moving him to the bench playing HORSE with JC could work, with Joe as lead guard

Certain Coach Quinn won't be tinkering much if he has a healthy roster and will revert to his go to starting 5. But imagine the firepower off the bench and stability in the starting 5. Damn
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Re: Game 72: Utah Jazz (51-20) @ Sacramento Kings (31-40) 

Post#206 » by tugs » Tue May 18, 2021 11:31 pm

TNJazz wrote:
tugs wrote:And is it just me but Niang got some springs in his legs the past couple of games? He's been handling the ball well and aggressive with his drives


His stats back up his eye test results in games where he started while MC & DM were injured. I was most impressed with his defense, staying in front of his man, not something I thought was going to happen. I think the Jazz went 6-3 in the games he started and his points & shooting percentages were all improved. Another nice "discovery" result from the injuries protein of the season. his ability to shoot from deep will give the Jazz another weapon during the playoffs and I'm not as worried about him being a big liability on defense as I used to be.
Yeah same. He was a bit helter skelter before but he's a lot more composed now. If not for Favors' defense I'd support Niang getting more minutes.

Oni should've gotten more reps during the last stretch though over Forrest, especially when the two starting guards are coming back. They need relievers for the 3&D wing role
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#207 » by vryadli » Wed May 19, 2021 12:44 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:Defensive Player Ladder: Rudy Gobert finishes season on top
https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-final-edition-2021

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Wow! That is the picture!
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#208 » by Crunch 99 » Wed May 19, 2021 1:06 pm

tugs wrote:I wish someone can give numbers when having a frontcourt of Gobert, Royce, and Niang, how effective they are together. I think 2 complementary wings fit well with ball dominant Donovan and Mike


Basketball reference gives the top 20 lineups ranked by total minutes played for five, four, three and two man lineups. Those three didn't have enough minutes played together to make the top-20, minutes for three man lineups, but they appear together in a five man lineup comprised of Gobert, Niang, Bogey, Royce and Ingles. This big lineup only played 84 minutes together, but they had a plus 43 points, giving this lineup the second highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups. The highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups was Gobert, Royce, Ingles, DM and Conley.

Here is the link for the lineup data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2021/lineups/
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#209 » by vryadli » Thu May 20, 2021 3:37 am

Crunch 99 wrote:
tugs wrote:I wish someone can give numbers when having a frontcourt of Gobert, Royce, and Niang, how effective they are together. I think 2 complementary wings fit well with ball dominant Donovan and Mike


Basketball reference gives the top 20 lineups ranked by total minutes played for five, four, three and two man lineups. Those three didn't have enough minutes played together to make the top-20, minutes for three man lineups, but they appear together in a five man lineup comprised of Gobert, Niang, Bogey, Royce and Ingles. This big lineup only played 84 minutes together, but they had a plus 43 points, giving this lineup the second highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups. The highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups was Gobert, Royce, Ingles, DM and Conley.

Here is the link for the lineup data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2021/lineups/



Strange thing. I looked on these data sorted by point difference and DM isn't presented in any of top combinations. That possibly can be explained by stronger oppositions... but can be his opposition stronger than Gobert's? I wonder is there any advanced metrics which show Jazz improvement on wins because of him?
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#210 » by Crunch 99 » Thu May 20, 2021 6:35 pm

vryadli wrote:
Crunch 99 wrote:Here is the link for the lineup data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2021/lineups/



Strange thing. I looked on these data sorted by point difference and DM isn't presented in any of top combinations. That possibly can be explained by stronger oppositions... but can be his opposition stronger than Gobert's? I wonder is there any advanced metrics which show Jazz improvement on wins because of him?


He's listed in the top points/min five man lineup of Gobert, Royce, Ingles, DM and Conley, and he's listed in the top points/min four man group of Gobert, Royce, Ingles and DM. He is not in a very high three man or two man group. It is interesting that Gobert/Niang is the best point/min two man group.

At the ESPN Real Plus-Minus website, Mitchell is ranked #48 in the league on WINS at 7.52 out of 534 players. Gobert is ranked #2 in the league at 19.05, Conley is ranked #37 at 8.28, Bojan is ranked #39 at 8.24 and Ingles is ranked #50 at 7.17.

"WINS: "RPM Wins" provide an estimate of the number of wins each player has contributed to his team's win total on the season. RPM Wins include the player's Real Plus-Minus and his number of possessions played."

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#211 » by GobertReport » Thu May 20, 2021 8:52 pm

Nate McMillan called out the league for favoritism towards big markets, love it!
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#212 » by zero24gravity » Thu May 20, 2021 10:10 pm

GobertReport wrote:Nate McMillan called out the league for favoritism towards big markets, love it!


What!!?!?!? That's crazy!! What would lead anyone to think there's a favoritism .... other than hearing more about a middle of the pack Leastern Conference team from NY, than the team who had the best record in the league nearly the entire year, while not playing in the Jr Varsity Conference?

I just wish the pretending would stop. Just admit there's favoritism and move on. Money talks and we all know it. Acting like it isn't real is more annoying than the actual bias itself, IMO.
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#213 » by GobertReport » Thu May 20, 2021 10:23 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
GobertReport wrote:Nate McMillan called out the league for favoritism towards big markets, love it!


What!!?!?!? That's crazy!! What would lead anyone to think there's a favoritism .... other than hearing more about a middle of the pack Leastern Conference team from NY, than the team who had the best record in the league nearly the entire year, while not playing in the Jr Varsity Conference?

I just wish the pretending would stop. Just admit there's favoritism and move on. Money talks and we all know it. Acting like it isn't real is more annoying than the actual bias itself, IMO.


The NBA is the WWE, now make it more interesting with wrestling in the game. No more jump balls, Rugby style skirmishes. Let coaches call out refs mid game and let the fighting commence haha.
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#214 » by tugs » Fri May 21, 2021 12:43 am

Crunch 99 wrote:
tugs wrote:I wish someone can give numbers when having a frontcourt of Gobert, Royce, and Niang, how effective they are together. I think 2 complementary wings fit well with ball dominant Donovan and Mike


Basketball reference gives the top 20 lineups ranked by total minutes played for five, four, three and two man lineups. Those three didn't have enough minutes played together to make the top-20, minutes for three man lineups, but they appear together in a five man lineup comprised of Gobert, Niang, Bogey, Royce and Ingles. This big lineup only played 84 minutes together, but they had a plus 43 points, giving this lineup the second highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups. The highest plus/minus per minute for five man lineups was Gobert, Royce, Ingles, DM and Conley.

Here is the link for the lineup data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2021/lineups/
Aaah there we go. Thanks man. Guess the eye test matches somehow even if it's not the three man combination

And this tells me how points are really an overrated stat, considering Bojan and Jordan aren't in the top two. But then again, real-time on the court output sometimes tells us otherwise. Eye test and advanced metrics, which one would you believe
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#215 » by vryadli » Fri May 21, 2021 3:33 am

Crunch 99 wrote:
vryadli wrote:
Crunch 99 wrote:Here is the link for the lineup data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2021/lineups/



Strange thing. I looked on these data sorted by point difference and DM isn't presented in any of top combinations. That possibly can be explained by stronger oppositions... but can be his opposition stronger than Gobert's? I wonder is there any advanced metrics which show Jazz improvement on wins because of him?


He's listed in the top points/min five man lineup of Gobert, Royce, Ingles, DM and Conley, and he's listed in the top points/min four man group of Gobert, Royce, Ingles and DM. He is not in a very high three man or two man group. It is interesting that Gobert/Niang is the best point/min two man group.

At the ESPN Real Plus-Minus website, Mitchell is ranked #48 in the league on WINS at 7.52 out of 534 players. Gobert is ranked #2 in the league at 19.05, Conley is ranked #37 at 8.28, Bojan is ranked #39 at 8.24 and Ingles is ranked #50 at 7.17.

"WINS: "RPM Wins" provide an estimate of the number of wins each player has contributed to his team's win total on the season. RPM Wins include the player's Real Plus-Minus and his number of possessions played."

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS


Thanks. So in most W-oriented stats category he is number four on the team. That is strange. It is difficult to believe that Bogdanovich contributes more, especially with his awful streak and DM being way less streaky this year and rather good defender. Or this stats is severely lacking or DM is doing something for team game flow.
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#216 » by Crunch 99 » Fri May 21, 2021 1:24 pm

tugs wrote:I wish someone can give numbers when having a frontcourt of Gobert, Royce, and Niang, how effective they are together. I think 2 complementary wings fit well with ball dominant Donovan and Mike


Here is another link I recently noticed at basketball reference that focuses on all the lineups involving one player. Here is the link for Niang's top lineups in terms of minutes played.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/niangge01/lineups/2021

Here are the RAPM ranks for Jazz players for the 20/21 season : Note --- the site says it is more useful to look at players' RAPM rankings over a combined three seasons than just one season, but Niang is improving.

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-626467321

I am not claiming that any of the links I've provided lead to definitive conclusions, but my bottom line for Niang is that he has been an improving, decent player off the bench player this season, and that he is a better overall fit than old-aged Thabo was a few years ago, though not better on D. Since the All Star break, Niang's averaged 8.5 ppg on 44.1/45.1% shooting.

I hope Niang will continue to be productive in the high pressure playoffs. Go Jazz!
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#218 » by red4hf » Mon May 24, 2021 11:36 pm

Clarkson wins the 6th Man of the Year Award....... Well deserved..... Now he better go off in game 2.......
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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#219 » by babyjax13 » Tue May 25, 2021 12:29 am

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JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

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Re: Official 2020-2021 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#220 » by zero24gravity » Fri May 28, 2021 10:08 pm

Most Improved Player award went to Randle. Was pretty much a blow-out over Jerami Grant.

Did you know 2 Jazz players also got a vote? Clarkson received a 2nd place vote. I guess I can see it, especially in the fist half of the season. But how, how, how did Bogey get a 3rd place vote? He got WORSE from last season in EVERY stat other than steals (went up 0.1 this year), 2-point%, TO's. Did someone not get the memo about what "improved" means? lol

I do my share of picking on Bogey, but this is just silly. There are a handful of Jazz players you can argue got better, but he's not one of them. (Conley vs last season, for sure. Ingles was more productive. Maybe even Gobert, O'Neal, Niang, & Mitchell.) Just a random Jazz-related item that made me laugh.

Side note: I thought they were playing tonight. UGH! Don't want to wait until tomorrow!

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