RealGM

Do we enter the season with?

-If we trade Donovan then 10-11 1sts and a couple swaps.

-If we don’t trade Donovan then 6-7 1sts and a couple of swaps.

That doesn’t include our own picks and I don’t think we retool this season, that would be less than ideal. I think we tank for one season with Donovan and two seasons without Donovan; tanking with Donovan likely brings a top 5 pick and without Donovan is a top 3. Hearing so much about this upcoming draft a top 5 pick with Donovan is ideal, we have cap, and we have assets to trade for another superstar, Jaylen Brown?

Where do you guys see the treasure chest of picks!?

I haven't counted our picks but if we're going to tank, there is no use of doing that with DM because this is the season to tank, assuming Victor Wembanyama is really the type of generational talent he is billed to be.

Inigo Montoya wrote:I haven't counted our picks but if we're going to tank, there is no use of doing that with DM because this is the season to tank, assuming Victor Wembanyama is really the type of generational talent he is billed to be.

After the Holmgren injury I am worried about drafting VW, the skinny, tall guys have me a bit worried.

AingesBurner wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I haven't counted our picks but if we're going to tank, there is no use of doing that with DM because this is the season to tank, assuming Victor Wembanyama is really the type of generational talent he is billed to be.

After the Holmgren injury I am worried about drafting VW, the skinny, tall guys have me a bit worried.

Sure, I'm not really making a case for VW because I don't know that much about him, but as a general point, if you're going to tank, do it when there is a prospect that is considered to be a generational talent. Tanking in seasons with weak drafts seems counter-productive.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

AingesBurner wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I haven't counted our picks but if we're going to tank, there is no use of doing that with DM because this is the season to tank, assuming Victor Wembanyama is really the type of generational talent he is billed to be.

After the Holmgren injury I am worried about drafting VW, the skinny, tall guys have me a bit worried.

Sure, I'm not really making a case for VW because I don't know that much about him, but as a general point, if you're going to tank, do it when there is a prospect that is considered to be a generational talent. Tanking in seasons with weak drafts seems counter-productive.

The timing of this tank job is about as fortunate as one could hope, if the draft is as deep with top tier talent as advertised. Moreover, the West is currently stacked, but with aging superstars who probably won't be around or as impactful in 3-4 yrs.

Both the Jazz and Knicks are motivated to trade Mitchell, it is just a matter of how many picks, how many of those are unprotected and which Knicks players are traded and if there is a 3rd team involved (e.g. Lakers).

AingesBurner wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I haven't counted our picks but if we're going to tank, there is no use of doing that with DM because this is the season to tank, assuming Victor Wembanyama is really the type of generational talent he is billed to be.

After the Holmgren injury I am worried about drafting VW, the skinny, tall guys have me a bit worried.

I am always scared about skinny, tall guys. Always. The history doesn't help them at all, unfortunately.

Tanking to get top draft picks in a small market may be a good idea but just look over the past 20 years at guys that were top 10 picks and were busts. It is a gamble and nobody (including Danny Ainge) gets it right all the time.

If a small market team gets lucky enough to hit the jackpot and get a top 10 pick that is a star, that player will force their way out after 5 or 6 years. I credit DM for not coming out and demanding a trade. I credit him for keeping his mouth shut but I don't see him running around Utah and showing up at a private BBQ in Utah like he did a few years ago. He has been very visible in NYC. I also don't think DM is calling Danny Ainge and saying "Please don't trade me Danny".

Until the NBA makes it harder for players to force trades, more expensive for large market teams to take players from small market teams or makes it easier for teams to keep their talented players it will forever be an uneven playing field and a half a$$ product on the floor for the small market teams (with very rare exceptions).

D Rog wrote:Tanking to get top draft picks in a small market may be a good idea but just look over the past 20 years at guys that were top 10 picks and were busts. It is a gamble and nobody (including Danny Ainge) gets it right all the time.

If a small market team gets lucky enough to hit the jackpot and get a top 10 pick that is a star, that player will force their way out after 5 or 6 years. I credit DM for not coming out and demanding a trade. I credit him for keeping his mouth shut but I don't see him running around Utah and showing up at a private BBQ in Utah like he did a few years ago. He has been very visible in NYC. I also don't think DM is calling Danny Ainge and saying "Please don't trade me Danny".

Until the NBA makes it harder for players to force trades, more expensive for large market teams to take players from small market teams or makes it easier for teams to keep their talented players it will forever be an uneven playing field and a half a$$ product on the floor for the small market teams (with very rare exceptions).

Winning championships in the NBA takes a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time, in addition to having a good GM and making the right moves. There are a few teams that will always have an advantage with being attractive to players, and there's really nothing that can be done about that, but it doesn't mean building a championship team in Utah isn't still possible.

As for drafting a top player in Utah and worrying that he will want out, that's a bridge you cross when you have to. Utah was proactive with Deron Williams and should have done the same with Haywood, but he kinda tricked everybody into believing he would stay in Utah. Utah didn't wait for Gobert and got a superstar return for him, and that will probably be their strategy from here on out. Unless they are going deep in the playoffs, they should assume high value players will seek greener pastures and act accordingly.

The irony with Gobert is he seems like the type that might have stayed in Utah. Considering his age and the injury concern among players his size/build, Ainge made the right choice to move him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gobert come back to Utah after his current contract if Ainge can build the team quickly enough. It may be too late for him though, as it will only take one injury to his lower body to significantly hinder his game. Once his athleticism is gone, Rudy will be a bench player.

Cappy_Smurf wrote:Winning championships in the NBA takes a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time, in addition to having a good GM and making the right moves. There are a few teams that will always have an advantage with being attractive to players, and there's really nothing that can be done about that, but it doesn't mean building a championship team in Utah isn't still possible.

As for drafting a top player in Utah and worrying that he will want out, that's a bridge you cross when you have to. Utah was proactive with Deron Williams and should have done the same with Haywood, but he kinda tricked everybody into believing he would stay in Utah. Utah didn't wait for Gobert and got a superstar return for him, and that will probably be their strategy from here on out. Unless they are going deep in the playoffs, they should assume high value players will seek greener pastures and act accordingly.

The irony with Gobert is he seems like the type that might have stayed in Utah. Considering his age and the injury concern among players his size/build, Ainge made the right choice to move him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gobert come back to Utah after his current contract if Ainge can build the team quickly enough. It may be too late for him though, as it will only take one injury to his lower body to significantly hinder his game. Once his athleticism is gone, Rudy will be a bench player.

What "superstar" did Utah get for Gobert? (I am not trying to be a jerk) They got a couple of young prospects and some future draft picks.

I agree Gobert was more likely to stay in Utah and I agree that based on his size, position and age, he was more likely to be injured in the next few years and be of less value than he has been the past few years.

I am not opposed to what the Jazz are doing and hope they can get max return for DM and hopefully picks and / or half way decent prospects by trading any of the vets still on their team. My point from my previous post was draft picks are a gamble and that includes the Wembanyama (he has a similar frame as Chet Holmgren and Holmgren is about to miss his rookie season).

In regards to winning a championship in Utah, I agree it takes a lot of luck. However, when 2 teams have won 1/3 of the championships in the history of the NBA I question the leagues legitimacy. That dominance has diminished somewhat in the past 30 years and a few other teams (with dominant players) have won championships (Bulls, Spurs, Heat, Warriors). I have been following the Jazz since 87. I have heard more corporate speak and sales pitches from coaching staffs, GMs, owners etc. I stopped buying what they were selling years ago. At the end of the day, the Utah Jazz is a business trying to sell something to their fan base for profit.

After the Stockton / Malone era I guessed the Jazz would not become a top tier team again for 20 years. D Will / Boozer got them to the Western Conference finals once and DM and Rudy Gobert had the most wins in a season but fell on their collective asses during the playoffs. Neither of those teams qualify as "top tier" in my mind. After Stockton / Malone I said the Lakers would win 5 more championships before the Jazz even made it back to the finals (I think they have won 6 since then). I am willing to bet the Lakers win 5 more before the Jazz get back to the finals.

The NBA is flawed in allowing players so much control in forcing trades, creating super teams, sitting out of games or for a full season but expecting to get paid. I would love to see the owners lock out the players and regain control of the league. Can you imagine how much better games would be if a player had to play and perform to collect on his $45M per year contract?

D Rog wrote:

Cappy_Smurf wrote:Winning championships in the NBA takes a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time, in addition to having a good GM and making the right moves. There are a few teams that will always have an advantage with being attractive to players, and there's really nothing that can be done about that, but it doesn't mean building a championship team in Utah isn't still possible.

As for drafting a top player in Utah and worrying that he will want out, that's a bridge you cross when you have to. Utah was proactive with Deron Williams and should have done the same with Haywood, but he kinda tricked everybody into believing he would stay in Utah. Utah didn't wait for Gobert and got a superstar return for him, and that will probably be their strategy from here on out. Unless they are going deep in the playoffs, they should assume high value players will seek greener pastures and act accordingly.

The irony with Gobert is he seems like the type that might have stayed in Utah. Considering his age and the injury concern among players his size/build, Ainge made the right choice to move him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gobert come back to Utah after his current contract if Ainge can build the team quickly enough. It may be too late for him though, as it will only take one injury to his lower body to significantly hinder his game. Once his athleticism is gone, Rudy will be a bench player.

What "superstar" did Utah get for Gobert? (I am not trying to be a jerk) They got a couple of young prospects and some future draft picks.

I agree Gobert was more likely to stay in Utah and I agree that based on his size, position and age, he was more likely to be injured in the next few years and be of less value than he has been the past few years.

I am not opposed to what the Jazz are doing and hope they can get max return for DM and hopefully picks and / or half way decent prospects by trading any of the vets still on their team. My point from my previous post was draft picks are a gamble and that includes the Wembanyama (he has a similar frame as Chet Holmgren and Holmgren is about to miss his rookie season).

In regards to winning a championship in Utah, I agree it takes a lot of luck. However, when 2 teams have won 1/3 of the championships in the history of the NBA I question the leagues legitimacy. That dominance has diminished somewhat in the past 30 years and a few other teams (with dominant players) have won championships (Bulls, Spurs, Heat, Warriors). I have been following the Jazz since 87. I have heard more corporate speak and sales pitches from coaching staffs, GMs, owners etc. I stopped buying what they were selling years ago. At the end of the day, the Utah Jazz is a business trying to sell something to their fan base for profit.

After the Stockton / Malone era I guessed the Jazz would not become a top tier team again for 20 years. D Will / Boozer got them to the Western Conference finals once and DM and Rudy Gobert had the most wins in a season but fell on their collective asses during the playoffs. Neither of those teams qualify as "top tier" in my mind. After Stockton / Malone I said the Lakers would win 5 more championships before the Jazz even made it back to the finals (I think they have won 6 since then). I am willing to bet the Lakers win 5 more before the Jazz get back to the finals.

The NBA is flawed in allowing players so much control in forcing trades, creating super teams, sitting out of games or for a full season but expecting to get paid. I would love to see the owners lock out the players and regain control of the league. Can you imagine how much better games would be if a player had to play and perform to collect on his $45M per year contract?

Regarding your initial question, he said superstar return, not a superstar in return

AingesBurner wrote:Do we enter the season with?

-If we trade Donovan then 10-11 1sts and a couple swaps.

-If we don’t trade Donovan then 6-7 1sts and a couple of swaps.

That doesn’t include our own picks and I don’t think we retool this season, that would be less than ideal. I think we tank for one season with Donovan and two seasons without Donovan; tanking with Donovan likely brings a top 5 pick and without Donovan is a top 3. Hearing so much about this upcoming draft a top 5 pick with Donovan is ideal, we have cap, and we have assets to trade for another superstar, Jaylen Brown?

Where do you guys see the treasure chest of picks!?

I wouldn't classify Brown as a superstar, though he would be the best swing man the Jazz have ever had (I actually suspect that has been the weakness for all iterations of the jazz- no elite 2 or 3 to compliment an elite pg and pf/c over the years). Brown isn't the right target for Utah though, as picks won't help boston compete. Someone with an established star who isn't competing would be more ideal a target. SGA might fit the bill here though, can playmake and play 2/3 and plays for a team that isn't competing and that loves picks. Okc may not want to move him, but that's the kind of team to target

Anyone see the amount of picks Danny is acquiring as the potential for a future Doncic trade? Utah has had great luck with European players and they tend to be more loyal and less city driven than American players. A Doncic/VW two headed monster is nasty.

I don't think there's any way Doncic would go from Dallas to Utah. I think Luka is good enough that his team will always be Top 6 in the conference, maybe even Top 4 (we'll have to see how this year goes). Those guys tend to stick around and want people to come to them.

I'm OK if Mitchell goes knowing that there is a pretty high % chance knowing that the Jazz will pick #6 at worst. And the way they have gutted the team that we will keep the 2024 Top 10 protected pick to OKC.

So the fact we'll probably have back to back Top 5 picks at least gets us to a point where we have some young assets and hopefully talent. Best case is we can have a fast reset if we get lucky and can get an elite guy in one of those two years.