We're Too Good To Tank, Dammit.

Jammer · Post #21 » by **Jammer** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:42 am

You guys should enjoy any winning you get this season. You don't need to start tanking until 2024 thru 2026, when your 1rst Round pick is Top 10, Top 10 and Top 8 Protected and then expires if not transmitted.

If you make the playoffs, it's like $10 Million in additional revenue per playoff series. Ticket sales alone are like $2 Million per playoff game, plus there is TV revenue and concessions.

Anyway, sometimes I think you are tanking because I'd play Simone Fontecchio over Talen Horton-Tucker. I've been wanting to say that for a week, and actually wrote that before Fontechhio made it into tonight's game against Houston.

You win games because although your starting lineup has flaws, your bench is better than most; in fact, quite good.

PG: Conley / Sexton
SG: Clarkson / Beasley
SF: I'd play Gay, Beasley and Fontecchio and drop Horton-Tucker, who can't shoot and is a turnover machine
PF: Markannen and Vanderbilt are solid
C: Olynyk has some warts but Walker Kessler is a solid backup

You guys may end up winning 31 to 38 games, which would put you in play for the 10 spot probably, maybe even the 9. If you continue to shoot like you did the first 3 games you could end up in the Top 8, but after cooling off tonight against Houston you can see you are still mortal.

It's hard to trade guys mid-season when Utah wants to take back less salary than they send out. That's the problem, you don't want bad contracts at this point. And most teams are filled up over the luxury tax line or close so there is resistance to sending out less salary than they take back. It's a tough situation.

Clarkson might not exercise his option for next year and he could leave as a free agent, or you could re-sign him.

As far as tanking, you will probably be able to do some trades around the draft that don't have you taking on bad money and you might get some decent picks/players while letting go of veterans like Beasley (whose contract for next season is not guaranteed anyway so you could just let him walk), but keeping Beasley may help a playoff run THIS YEAR.

I wouldn't worry about winning. Enjoy the ride. Once you descend into the abyss of tanking you could be there for 4 years (or more). This team will likely overachieve. Take it as a positive. And the veteran presence will help guys like Walker Kessler and Ochai Agbaji while Sexton should learn from Conley.

Bolmaro may be gone next year if they don't exercise his option. Alexander-Walker will probably just have to sign elsewhere next summer. If Beasley, Bolmaro, Azubuike and Alexander-Walker are gone next season (only Beasley is in the rotation), Conley and Gay another year older, you'd be surprised what effect that could have on the ability to win and you might fall to the bottom 10 teams next year and hold onto your pick. If Clarkson were to sign elsewhere simply for more $/years that would probably seal a Bottom 10 finish NEXT SEASON even with three 1rst Round draft picks (Utah, Minnesota, worst of Phili, Brooklyn, Houston).

No need to tank this year.

Cappy_Smurf · Post #22 » by **Cappy_Smurf** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:51 am

If you look around the league, Utah isn't the only bottom dweller to start strong. Adam Silver is on a quest to prove that tanking isn't a big problem in the NBA, so all the bottom teams have gotten some help from the officiating to start out. Utah will still be a lottery team this year.

The NBA ran Hinkie out of town for tanking too aggressively. They aren't going to put up with anybody running out a g-league team and losing every game by 50. Tanking properly is an art and harder than it might seem. You have to be somewhat competitive, while also losing as much as possible.

SoCalJazzFan · Post #23 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:11 pm

Just a reminder, as fun as the last few wins have been, we should be taking this tanking thing a little more seriously.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/other/victor-wembanyama-s-incredible-fast-break-block-run-it-back/vi-AA13khoX?cvid=a1a3cd1758794a0db91bac977c0d8bb2

zero24gravity · Post #24 » by **zero24gravity** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:39 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:Just a reminder, as fun as the last few wins have been, we should be taking this tanking thing a little more seriously.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/other/victor-wembanyama-s-incredible-fast-break-block-run-it-back/vi-AA13khoX?cvid=a1a3cd1758794a0db91bac977c0d8bb2

You're not wrong ... however, if I will say that I have my concerns over the integrity of the system, if it means the NBA marketing machine has to deal with Victor in a place like OKC, IND, UT or even SA. Houston or Orlando are much more "desirable" locations for the big man to land, IMO, and I can't help but wonder if the entire #1 pick thing is pointless to even worry about. (Oh hell, what if the Lakers don't make the playoffs ... )

...ok, conspiracy cap off (which isn't really my style anyway). I think I'm just trying to not get my hopes up, so I'm coming up with reasons that it's not even possible. Thanks for letting me think out loud. I may need therapy. :lol:

EDIT: just realized the Pelicans have a pick swap with the Lakers for the upcoming draft. Maybe that's helpful regarding my conspiracy theory rant (that I probably don't believe), but then again, Zion + Victor???

bkohler · Post #25 » by **bkohler** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:54 pm

Rauxcee wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
bkohler wrote:If he can walk out of this season with a team that barely misses the playin, moves some vets for value and establishes good habits then that’s a win in my book.

How is that a win? We'll still be without top-level talent, and with a low draft pick in what should be a draft with some extraordinary prospects. Finishing just barely out of the play-in is the worst position a team can find itself in. Not even in the playoffs and without a high draft pick. This is what teams try to avoid. It does us no favors to get to that point. I get that we all like the Jazz and want them to win but if we keep doing this we'll end up stuck in the same place we've been to for the next decade. For the love of Thor, we can't be doing this over and over again and expect different results. We already tried the rebuild without tanking and look where we are now, almost a decade later. At some point we need to be willing to take the plunge and endure the pain for at least one season so we could have a future that amounts to more than a decade of first and second round exits as a ceiling.

I agree. What is the point of trading away all time great talent by team standards to end up in almost the same position we were before? I'd get it if this year's draft was projected to be a dud, but it's not. It's supposed to have great talent. It's nice we have assets of future draft picks, but nobody is going to trade the top picks in this year's draft for future picks. Jazz need to aim for bottom 4 record. Otherwise it's a complete waste of a season.

The majority of this team isnt even likely to be on the future team or be long haul guys. There are maybe 3 or 4 guys worth holding onto for long term. The rest can, and should, be traded when the opportunity arises.

Also, I'm anti tanking, but if the Jazz are going to do it by hitting the reset button Iike they did, then commit to it. Don't half ass it by almost being a play in team.

I'm not disagreeing with either of you; I just won't be upset if we miss the play-in and establish a good identity. Notice I said we need to move some vets (Conley/Clarkson/Gay/Etc). I personally would be pushing for a deeper tank, but what I'm most afraid of is actually overachieving to a higher degree and keeping our Vets, and pushing for that play-in - this is the scenario that feels like a complete loss to me. We might be too good for the bottom 5, but let's at least stay in the lottery and make sure we're aggressively moving our vets for value.

babyjax13 · Post #26 » by **babyjax13** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:19 am

You could destroy this team's ability to win (and be fun to watch) by simply trading Lauri. He's a perfect fit in New Orleans and they have a swap option with LAL in 2023 and own LAL's 2024 or 2025 pick (NOP gets to choose which year). See if you can get the 2023 pick/swap, and push for one more pick. Ideally, it is the LAL pick, but if it ends up as a protected NOP pick I think it's still a good deal. New Orleans would be a monster team after, but if you said Mitchell could turn into something like:

Ochai Agbaji (14th pick 2022)
Collin Sexton
2023 LAL 1st (unprotected)
2025 NOP 1st (protected)
2025 CLE 1st
2027 CLE 1st
2029 CLE 1st

I'd be pretty stoked.

Axolotl · Post #27 » by **Axolotl** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:42 am

This Jazz team looks like they're having fun. They're also way more fun to watch than a bunch of random mediocre players + old man Conley have any right to be.

dautjazz · Post #28 » by **dautjazz** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:23 pm

The Cavs trade keeps looking better each day for us, and we still havent even played Agbaji yet. Lauri is blossoming into a legit franchise player and I love Sexton's energy off the bench, surprised how well he rebounds for his size.

Minnesota package has turned out nice as well, Kessler and Vanderbilt have been very solid defensively, they just need to work on fouling less. THT is beginning to win me over, though I know he wasnt a direct result of the Gobert trade, but we did get him for one of Beverly who we got in the trade.

Obviously the plethora of picks is the core of these trades, so I think the haul is amazing considering we get excellent value in players that can play today as well.

I'm stoked with Hardy, you're not supposed to coach this well as the youngest coach in the NBA, and as a rookie as well.

Clarkson seems to have stepped up his D this season, as well as Conley. I'm just loving the way this team plays so hard every game.

goober · Post #29 » by **goober** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:33 pm

How funny would it be if the Nets/76ers/Rockets first is better than our own

stitches · Post #30 » by **stitches** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:15 pm

Read on Twitter

TNJazz · Post #31 » by **TNJazz** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:24 pm

stitches wrote:

Read on Twitter

tugs · Post #32 » by **tugs** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:59 am

I've seen so much love for this team in Jazz fan pages. It's gotta hurt knowing the team can compete and is not dysfunctional unlike the previous years but there's a lingering feeling of impending trades eventually

pickIBL · Post #33 » by **pickIBL** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:20 pm

Comentator: Markannen steps to the line for the first of two.

Crowd: MVP, MVP, MVP!!!

babyjax13 · Post #34 » by **babyjax13** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:30 pm

The Spurs have just waived Josh Primo, I'm so confused, but if it isn't for some kind of legal or medical issue we should try to get him. Shocking they did not trade him.

SoCalJazzFan · Post #35 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:51 am

stitches wrote:

Read on Twitter

Ainge needs to trade the vets, particularly Clarkson, asap.

tugs · Post #36 » by **tugs** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:04 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
stitches wrote:

Read on Twitter

Ainge needs to trade the vets, particularly Clarkson, asap.

JC got the memo today lol

Post #37 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:08 pm

babyjax13 wrote:The Spurs have just waived Josh Primo, I'm so confused, but if it isn't for some kind of legal or medical issue we should try to get him. Shocking they did not trade him.

Yeah, that's very confusing since they just guaranteed his contract for the season two weeks ago. It makes me think it has something to do with an off the court incident we still don't know about or maybe a behavior issue with Popovich.

SoCalJazzFan · Post #38 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:49 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:The Spurs have just waived Josh Primo, I'm so confused, but if it isn't for some kind of legal or medical issue we should try to get him. Shocking they did not trade him.

Yeah, that's very confusing since they just guaranteed his contract for the season two weeks ago. It makes me think it has something to do with an off the court incident we still don't know about or maybe a behavior issue with Popovich.

Apparently, Primo has some weighty personal/mental/emotional issues to deal with and asked to be released to deal with them.

Post #39 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:00 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:The Spurs have just waived Josh Primo, I'm so confused, but if it isn't for some kind of legal or medical issue we should try to get him. Shocking they did not trade him.

Yeah, that's very confusing since they just guaranteed his contract for the season two weeks ago. It makes me think it has something to do with an off the court incident we still don't know about or maybe a behavior issue with Popovich.

Apparently, Primo has some weighty personal/mental/emotional issues to deal with and asked to be released to deal with them.

Makes sense, thanks for the info. Wish him the best of luck and hopefully he gets his issues taken care of.

red4hf · Post #40 » by **red4hf** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:50 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
Yeah, that's very confusing since they just guaranteed his contract for the season two weeks ago. It makes me think it has something to do with an off the court incident we still don't know about or maybe a behavior issue with Popovich.

Apparently, Primo has some weighty personal/mental/emotional issues to deal with and asked to be released to deal with them.

Makes sense, thanks for the info. Wish him the best of luck and hopefully he gets his issues taken care of.

He's a degenerate who likes to expose himself to women...... I do not wish him the best......

Good for the Spurs for dumping him......